Could a new service from Clapham Junction to Blackfriars work

[modernrail]

This came to me whilst looking another thread and might be gibberish but bear with me. Could a new service from Clapham Junction to Blackfriars be feasible?

The Clapham area is in need of the pressure taking off on all fronts. Services into Victoria and Waterloo are crush loaded from Clapham Junction and the Northern Line is full before it gets to Clapham North at all peak times.

Going along the line, my understanding and gaps in understanding are as follows:

- It is possible to reinstate platform 1 at Clapham Junction but it would not be cheap due to structural work. If completed this would provide a long platform face for perhaps 8 cars (Maybe 12?)

- There must be capacity from Clapham Junction to the junction with the South Eastern lines as there is only 1 train every 15 minutes at the moment?

- I am not clear on whether you can route and path a train from there to stop at Clapham North and then swing across at Loughborough junction onto the Thameslink lines towards Blackfriars? It doesn't feel like the busiest stretch of railway in London and so maybe there are paths?

- My understanding is that there is capacity on the 4 track section from Loughborough Junction to Blackfriars?

- My understanding is that there is capacity in the bay platforms at Blackfriars but I may be wrong. I am sort of lost as to what is and is not going in there on a permanent basis once the Thameslink timetable proper is in operation.

If it might be feasible, this could be a really interesting service.
- There are lots of EMUs going spare to run it.
- You could strip out all the seats on some 8 carriage trains and switch into metro format. Is a further platform extension at Clapham North feasible?
- It connects the South West areas directly into the City, where lots of people are heading, and so removes people from a very congested part of the rail and tube network. This will allow those who need to board at Clapham Junction to get into Waterloo and Victoria some space to do so.
- It dumps people into from the South West into Blackfriars to continue north on Thameslink just at those Thameslink trains are emptying out and so have capacity.

It is sort of a Crossrail 2 ultra light.

I will prepare to be shot down in flames.

 

[Bedpan]

Actually this sounds good. I know it would involve a reversal, but maybe the Southern MK service would be the one to divert into Blackfriars, or alternatively route it via Balham. .
I don't think that the bay platforms at Blackfriars are realising their full potential at the moment as they aren't accessible from the London Bridge direction, and if my memory serves me right the intention was to use them for Wimbledon/Sutton lo0op services which were planned to terminate there until the passengers complained.

 

[big all]

ironically about late 80s at redhill we had a turn on the kenny bell 3 or 4 round trips with 119 or a metcammel clapham to kenny and back and instead off dumping the unit in the yard or taking it to selhurst for a year or so we run as a special from clapham no2 to blackfriars and back a couple off times via this very route to blackfriars for brighton driver to walk down from blackfriars to faringdon before the service started up to learn the route

 

[cle]

So it would be:

Clapham Junction - Wandsworth Road - Clapham High Street - Elephant & Castle - Blackfriars bays ?

It’s be interesting if the journey time was quick enough - would need to be 15 mins or less to attract people off their trains at Clapham Junction, especially to the far end of the station. Perhaps it needn’t call at Wandsworth Road.

Obviously would be an amazing service for a future Brixton station though

Pathing might be tricky - not to find slots but to find clockface ones... I think the Overground route is supposed to increase to 6 or 8tph at some point, but perhaps some could go to Battersea Park instead.

 

[bionic]

- I am not clear on whether you can route and path a train from there to stop at Clapham North and then swing across at Loughborough junction onto the Thameslink lines towards Blackfriars? It doesn't feel like the busiest stretch of railway in London and so maybe there are paths?

This idea would involve crossing (and blocking) the Chatham lines at Shepherd's Lane junctiom, effectively stopping the SE service from Herne Hill and Denmark Hill while trains cross over. It would also involve conflicting moves at Loughborough Junction.

One of the bays at Blackfriars is already used for the Sevenoaks service and the other one is regularly used to get stuff out the way when the job goes up the wall (which is most days). On paper it's a great idea but I can't see it ever happening.

 

[modernrail]

So it would be:

Clapham Junction - Wandsworth Road - Clapham High Street - Elephant & Castle - Blackfriars bays ?

It’s be interesting if the journey time was quick enough - would need to be 15 mins or less to attract people off their trains at Clapham Junction, especially to the far end of the station. Perhaps it needn’t call at Wandsworth Road.

Obviously would be an amazing service for a future Brixton station though

Pathing might be tricky - not to find slots but to find clockface ones... I think the Overground route is supposed to increase to 6 or 8tph at some point, but perhaps some could go to Battersea Park instead.

My thought is just Clapham North and Elephant and Castle and yes definitely any new station at Brixton. I would skip Wandsworth Road. I am not sure if there is a disused platform at Loughborough junction but if there is this could be reinstated.

 

[modernrail]

This idea would involve crossing (and blocking) the Chatham lines at Shepherd's Lane junctiom, effectively stopping the SE service from Herne Hill and Denmark Hill while trains cross over. It would also involve conflicting moves at Loughborough Junction.

One of the bays at Blackfriars is already used for the Sevenoaks service and the other one is regularly used to get stuff out the way when the job goes up the wall (which is most days). On paper it's a great idea but I can't see it ever happening.

My instinct was definitely that it is this bit that has the biggest constraint. I think the service would need to be every 15 minutes to work effectively as a congestion buster and so I suppose it all hangs on their being slots at this point.

Looking at Google Sattelite it appears the switch would be behind the mega sized and very fun beer garden at the Duke of Edinburgh pub and that seems to be the right sort of switch to make this as efficient as possible (as opposed to the slow cross-over sort of thing the Lime Street TPE used to do on the Manchester Picadilly throat) and so maybe this isn't a show stopper, maybe with an upgrade to that switch to make it super reliable and quick?

As a slight tangent I have been a bit disappointed by how the Sutton loop Thameslinks through Herne still seem to be getting caught at the signal before entering Herne Hill despite the removal of the diverted London Bridge services. You would have thought the need for conflict here would be minimal now. Then again, this is Brexit Britain and we now seem to adore a bit of unnecessary conflict.

 

[modernrail]

ironically about late 80s at redhill we had a turn on the kenny bell 3 or 4 round trips with 119 or a metcammel clapham to kenny and back and instead off dumping the unit in the yard or taking it to selhurst for a year or so we run as a special from clapham no2 to blackfriars and back a couple off times via this very route to blackfriars for brighton driver to walk down from blackfriars to faringdon before the service started up to learn the route

Interesting! I don't suppose you can recall how long it took and how tricky getting through the section around Clapham North/Brixton was?

 

[modernrail]

So it would be:

Clapham Junction - Wandsworth Road - Clapham High Street - Elephant & Castle - Blackfriars bays ?

It’s be interesting if the journey time was quick enough - would need to be 15 mins or less to attract people off their trains at Clapham Junction, especially to the far end of the station. Perhaps it needn’t call at Wandsworth Road.

Obviously would be an amazing service for a future Brixton station though

Pathing might be tricky - not to find slots but to find clockface ones... I think the Overground route is supposed to increase to 6 or 8tph at some point, but perhaps some could go to Battersea Park instead.

My thought on this would be to get this new service out of the blocks a couple of minutes before each relevant Overground service. As my proposal would not stop at Wandsworth Road this seemed more sensible than the other way round. I hadn't thought of reversing the MK service and using that as one of the 4 an hour I am thinking of but that maybe that would make sense.

 

[big all]

Interesting! I don't suppose you can recall how long it took and how tricky getting through the section around Clapham North/Brixton was?

about 10 mins maybe 15 most off it was 40mph with 15-20mph clapham /over the top at stewarts lane about 25 over to the eastern side 15/20 at brixton /loughborough 40 slow 60 fast to blackfriars 20/25 into bays
the only problem was crossing the the southestern wandworth road to brixton but no recollection off more than up to 5 mins wait
the actual run times are quite hazy but apart from the brixton- loughborough and blackfriars-borough market spurs where all routes i regularly traversed as a coulsdon north and later redhill driver so quite nippy progress

 

[modernrail]

about 10 mins maybe 15 most off it was 40mph with 15-20mph clapham /over the top at stewarts lane about 25 over to the eastern side 15/20 at brixton /loughborough 40 slow 60 fast to blackfriars 20/25 into bays
the only problem was crossing the the southestern wandworth road to brixton but no recollection off more than up to 5 mins wait
the actual run times are quite hazy but apart from the brixton- loughborough and blackfriars-borough market spurs where all routes i regularly traversed as a coulsdon north and later redhill driver so quite nippy progress

Thanks, really useful insight. Hmmm that could be a really very useful service. Surprised it has not been considered before. 10-15 minutes to Blackfriars would be very attractive to many from Clapham Junction and 10 minutes from Clapham North would be an absolute dream for those who currently have to fight to get on a bus to Stockwell to pick up the northern line there (as there is no chance at Clapham North tube). I might write to London Reconnections and see what they think as they seem to be excellent at forensic analysis on pathing etc.

It is clearly not a free option but I cannot think of a better value way of getting extra capacity into this area relatively quickly.

 

[big all]

i think your best bet is connected in as perhaps a north south connection from somewhere on the southwestern to midland or LNER through running
as an aside clapham jct to denmark hill is 13 mins slightly less distance than elephant and castle so perhaps similar run times
as brixton platforms where never usable on the spur would need extra costs otherwise clapjct elephant and blackfriers are the only real busy stations served

 

[700007]

I think this sounds like a brilliant service that would become very popular very quickly. It would need to be at least every 15 minutes however. This train would also require very few trains to run as well which is also attractive.

Other than issues relating to pathing, the biggest issue is that this service could over time become a victim of its own success which may warrant an increase in capacity (especially if a Brixton stop was ever made) - this would need either more carriages (can this fit easily) or an increase in service frequency (would be even more of a struggle to path).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I'll just answer this one as concisely as possible.

No.

 

[modernrail]

I'll just answer this one as concisely as possible.

No.

Well bearing in mind it seems to be going down quite well as a concept..any specific reasons for your beautifully concise response? I will presume that you have specific knowledge of constraints that mean it is not viable.

 

[swt_passenger]

I just answered in the other thread where you also raised the question. The Blackfriars terminating capacity is already reserved for Southern and Southeastern services.

 

[modernrail]

To keep the discussion going in the same place, which Southern services? Southern doesn't run to Blackfriars.

 

[swt_passenger]

To keep the discussion going in the same place, which Southern services? Southern doesn't run to Blackfriars.

There are Southern Wimbledon loop services in the franchise spec that will run between Blackfriars and London Bridge in both directions via Sutton and Wimbledon. They are only running over part of the route in the peaks at the moment as they are not possible until the overall Thameslink problems are resolved.

 

[modernrail]

There are Southern Wimbledon loop services in the franchise spec that will run between Blackfriars and London Bridge in both directions via Sutton and Wimbledon. They are only running over part of the route in the peaks at the moment as they are not possible until the overall Thameslink problems are resolved.

Now I am really confused! I use the Wimbledon Loop daily and I thought all loop trains would remain Thameslink and a 15 minute service through the core, although I will admit I have completely lost the plot in trying to work out what is temporary and what the final plan is.

 

[30907]

Using sectional times from RTT, CLJ to BFR is 19 minutes with 3 stops, say 18 omitting Wandsworth Road. I believe TfL would like to reinstate Camberwell, and ideally you would want to stop at Brixton (both closed around 1917 BTW), but there is barely space for an 8-car platform between Brixton In and Canterbury Rd Jn. With both stops added you are talking 21 minutes.

Unfortunately that gives you a less attractive journey time on top of the patching and platforming issues.

 

[swt_passenger]

Now I am really confused! I use the Wimbledon Loop daily and I thought all loop trains would remain Thameslink and a 15 minute service through the core, although I will admit I have completely lost the plot in trying to work out what is temporary and what the final plan is.

These are additional trains to the Thameslink 4 tph round the loop, they are not easy to find information about as much of the GTR consultation and decision reports have been taken offline. I did find one of the user groups had kept the relevant report, we discussed the service a couple of months ago in another thread here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...le-from-may-20th.164547/page-167#post-3696729

Route SN3.11:
London Blackfriars – Peckham Rye – Herne Hill – Streatham –
Wimbledon – Sutton
Serving: London Blackfriars, Elephant & Castle, Loughborough Junction, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction, Hackbridge, Carshalton and Sutton. Trains will generally continue to Wimbledon and London Bridge as Route SN3.12.
Route SN3.12:
London Bridge– Peckham Rye – Mitcham Eastfields – Sutton
Serving: London Bridge, South Bermondsey, Queens Road Peckham, Peckham Rye, East Dulwich, North Dulwich, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Tooting, Haydons Road, Wimbledon, Wimbledon Chase, South Merton, Morden South, St Helier, Sutton Common, West Sutton and Sutton. Trains will generally continue to Mitcham Eastfields and London Blackfriars as Route SN3.11

http://www.flua.org.uk/documents/GTR 2018 Timetable Consultation Phase 2 .pdf

 

[Esker-pades]

Clapham Junction to Blackfriars:
There are off-peak slots across Voltaire Road Junction at XX:04, XX:19, XX:34 and XX:49. That means departures from Clapham Junction at XX:13, XX:28, XX:43 and XX:58.
Brixton is passed 1 minute later, Canterbury Road Junction a minute after that, and Loughborough Junction 2 minutes after that (or at XX:08, XX:23, XX:38 and XX:53. There appear to be paths here.
Elephant & Castle departures are 4 minutes later at XX:12, XX:27, XX:42 and XX:57.
That gives an arrival time into Blackfriars at XX:02, XX:17, XX:32 and XX:47.
Journey Time: 19 minutes.

Blackfriars to Clapham Junction:
The off-peak slots across Voltaire Road Junction exist at XX:09, XX:24, XX:39 and XX:54, giving an arrival time at Clapham Junction at XX:01, XX:16, XX:31 and XX:46. I'll work backwards from here.
Loughborough Junction is passed 4 minutes earlier at XX:05, XX:20, XX:35 and XX:50. There are paths, although the XX:05 and XX:35 services are running parallel with services to Orpington from the Thameslink Core.
That means leaving Elephant & Castle at XX:01, XX:16, XX:31 and XX:46.
Thus, departures from Blackfriars are at XX:12, XX:27, XX:42 and XX:57.
Journey time: 19 minutes.

Problems:
Platforms at Clapham Junction for a start. Is constructing an additional platform worth it?
Will people use the service? It will basically run very slowly throughot (I can't see it breaking 30mph at all).
What about peak times? The slots across Voltaire Road Junction go, which either means a service with weird gaps or no service at all during peak hours, which is arguably when the service is required the most.
What about the additional stops (Wandsworth Road, Brixton, Loughborough Junction)?

 

[big all]

good post felix the cat
so basically 13x43 from clapham and 12/42 from blackfriars with a 12 min turn round at clapham and ten at blackfriars

 

[Aictos]

As a slight tangent I have been a bit disappointed by how the Sutton loop Thameslinks through Herne still seem to be getting caught at the signal before entering Herne Hill despite the removal of the diverted London Bridge services. You would have thought the need for conflict here would be minimal now. Then again, this is Brexit Britain and we now seem to adore a bit of unnecessary conflict.

What on earth has Brexit got to do with conflicts at a busy railway junction?

You do realise that even though the diverted London Bridge services might no longer run via Herne Hill, you still get conflicts as you have always done so with South Eastern services as TL services cross Herne Hill on the flat crossing in short regardless of whom the operator is, you will always have conflicts at Herne Hill unless a massive rebuilding exercise is undertaken there which is very very unlikely.

 

[modernrail]

These are additional trains to the Thameslink 4 tph round the loop, they are not easy to find information about as much of the GTR consultation and decision reports have been taken offline. I did find one of the user groups had kept the relevant report, we discussed the service a couple of months ago in another thread here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...le-from-may-20th.164547/page-167#post-3696729

Many thanks.

Clapham Junction to Blackfriars:
There are off-peak slots across Voltaire Road Junction at XX:04, XX:19, XX:34 and XX:49. That means departures from Clapham Junction at XX:13, XX:28, XX:43 and XX:58.
Brixton is passed 1 minute later, Canterbury Road Junction a minute after that, and Loughborough Junction 2 minutes after that (or at XX:08, XX:23, XX:38 and XX:53. There appear to be paths here.
Elephant & Castle departures are 4 minutes later at XX:12, XX:27, XX:42 and XX:57.
That gives an arrival time into Blackfriars at XX:02, XX:17, XX:32 and XX:47.
Journey Time: 19 minutes.

Blackfriars to Clapham Junction:
The off-peak slots across Voltaire Road Junction exist at XX:09, XX:24, XX:39 and XX:54, giving an arrival time at Clapham Junction at XX:01, XX:16, XX:31 and XX:46. I'll work backwards from here.
Loughborough Junction is passed 4 minutes earlier at XX:05, XX:20, XX:35 and XX:50. There are paths, although the XX:05 and XX:35 services are running parallel with services to Orpington from the Thameslink Core.
That means leaving Elephant & Castle at XX:01, XX:16, XX:31 and XX:46.
Thus, departures from Blackfriars are at XX:12, XX:27, XX:42 and XX:57.
Journey time: 19 minutes.

Problems:
Platforms at Clapham Junction for a start. Is constructing an additional platform worth it?
Will people use the service? It will basically run very slowly throughot (I can't see it breaking 30mph at all).
What about peak times? The slots across Voltaire Road Junction go, which either means a service with weird gaps or no service at all during peak hours, which is arguably when the service is required the most.
What about the additional stops (Wandsworth Road, Brixton, Loughborough Junction)?

Wow! Now that is pathing knowledge. Thanks for working that out.

My instinct is that this service would be popular enough off-peak but it's real value would be as a peak congestion buster for Clapham Junction and Clapham North. I don't think the journey time is a problem at 20 minutes. The alternative for people accessing that side of town is about 10 minutes into Victoria on a crush loaded train, wrestle through the Victoria scrum and then 10-15 minutes on the underground. I used to allow 40 minutes minimum from Clapham North to Fetter Lane and I could usually do it quicker on the bike.

Are all the peak paths that cause a lack of pathing availability currently utilised or are some reserved? A lack of peak service would be a show stopper I think.

I remain totally confused as to what is utilised/will be utilised in the bays at Blackfriars despite the generous supply of information from posters above. Herne Hill is my main station. Whilst it sounds like the proposed services would benefit me personally more than the potential service we are discussing here I am not sure they sound like that sensible a use of the infrastructure overall. I find some of the proposed routes very off indeed. Blackfriars to Peckham to Herne Hill for instance. As for clarity as to what is and isn't happening, well clearly that is not available from the powers that be yet.

 

[Esker-pades]

Many thanks.

Wow! Now that is pathing knowledge. Thanks for working that out.

My instinct is that this service would be popular enough off-peak but it's real value would be as a peak congestion buster for Clapham Junction and Clapham North. I don't think the journey time is a problem at 20 minutes. The alternative for people accessing that side of town is about 10 minutes into Victoria on a crush loaded train, wrestle through the Victoria scrum and then 10-15 minutes on the underground. I used to allow 40 minutes minimum from Clapham North to Fetter Lane and I could usually do it quicker on the bike.

Are all the peak paths that cause a lack of pathing availability currently utilised or are some reserved? A lack of peak service would be a show stopper I think.

The 07:19, 07:34, 07:49, 08:04, 08:34 and 09:04 paths don't exist at peak.
Neither do the 06:39, 06:54, 07:09, 07:24, 07:39, 08:09, 08:24, 08:39, 08:54 or 09:24. Your service doesn't exist.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The 07:19, 07:34, 07:49, 08:04, 08:34 and 09:04 paths don't exist at peak.
Neither do the 06:39, 06:54, 07:09, 07:24, 07:39, 08:09, 08:24, 08:39, 08:54 or 09:24. Your service doesn't exist.

Moreover just because these paths appear to be plausible doesn’t mean they’d be allowed due to the fact that Network Rail and the ORR have to leave gaps for Open Access, freight and Fifth freedom rights.

 

[Esker-pades]

Moreover just because these paths appear to be plausible doesn’t mean they’d be allowed due to the fact that Network Rail and the ORR have to leave gaps for Open Access, freight and Fifth freedom rights.

That is entirely true.

 

[30907]

I find some of the proposed routes very off indeed. Blackfriars to Peckham to Herne Hill for instance.

Fortunately Peckham is an error in the heading, as the detail you quoted shows. Though the trains will eventually reach Peckham en route to London Bridge.

 

[Bedpan]

I remain totally confused as to what is utilised/will be utilised in the bays at Blackfriars despite the generous supply of information from posters above. Herne Hill is my main station. Whilst it sounds like the proposed services would benefit me personally more than the potential service we are discussing here I am not sure they sound like that sensible a use of the infrastructure overall. I find some of the proposed routes very off indeed. Blackfriars to Peckham to Herne Hill for instance. As for clarity as to what is and isn't happening, well clearly that is not available from the powers that be yet.

I got the impression that there was a suggestion to extend some of the Southern London Bridge terminators on to Blackfriars. That couldn't be done at present, as there is no connection from the London Bridge lines into the bay platforms at Blackfriars. I assume that there must be a reason why a set of points cannot be installed on order to provide access to the bay platforms, as I can't imagine that this would not have otherwise been included in the Blackfriars remodelling a few years ago.