West Coast Franchise speculation

[pt_mad]

USB ports or sockets for every seat is now a basic requirement for intercity services. Battery packs are helpful but not enough if you have been out for too long, especially with a tablet. I doubt the cost of installing them on Pendolinos would be huge. Free wifi is the same, at intercity prices its a reasonable expectation. People can do without either but shouldn't have to on an intercity service.

Out of interest, what do the East Midlands Trains HSTs (mk3s) have? Do they have plugs or USB sockets retro fitted?

 

[EE Andy b1]

I don't know why people keep going on about these things, nothing will be done, no investment of any significance will happen, no interior refurbishment will happen until the WCP franchise is won by whoever that might be. As has been said by others for there 15+ years of age both Classes 221/390 have faired pretty well.

The main things passengers require is an on time departure/arrival with a seat in some comfort. I think West Coast generally provide that and the Class 390 and even the Class 221 have great reliability at the moment which is down to the dedicated maintenance staff and a good service regime.
I just hope this continues with the restructuring of ALSTOM staff, but a lot of good staff will be leaving in the near future.

There will be massive changes to the West Coast services in the future with HS2, so let's see what that brings.

 

[AndrewE]

The main things passengers require is an on time departure/arrival with a seat in some comfort. I think West Coast generally provide that and the Class 390 and even the Class 221 have great reliability at the moment which is down to the dedicated maintenance staff and a good service regime.
I just hope this continues with the restructuring of ALSTOM staff, but a lot of good staff will be leaving in the near future.

That's really bad news. What bit of the stupid current structure is driving this then? Maybe some cost saving at the supplier? If it has been driven by VTWC and hammers the reliability of the rail service it will be a real own-goal. It will impact badly on "the railway" and show up the false economy of farming out business-critical activities, not that anyone would ever admit it though.

 

[EE Andy b1]

That's really bad news. What bit of the stupid current structure is driving this then? Maybe some cost saving at the supplier? If it has been driven by VTWC and hammers the reliability of the rail service it will be a real own-goal. It will impact badly on "the railway" and show up the false economy of farming out business-critical activities, not that anyone would ever admit it though.

Not down to VTWC, directly anyway but the ALSTOM/Siemens merger or is that Siemens takeover and obviously there thought on cost cutting or is that greater productivity from a smaller workforce.

ALSTOM are taking on other work for TPE at there West Coast depots as well, Mk5a sets and the Class 397 so let's hope they can cope and able to keep up a good standard that they had attained.

 

[Mollman]

That's really bad news. What bit of the stupid current structure is driving this then? Maybe some cost saving at the supplier? If it has been driven by VTWC and hammers the reliability of the rail service it will be a real own-goal. It will impact badly on "the railway" and show up the false economy of farming out business-critical activities, not that anyone would ever admit it though.

If the DfT specify it in the franchise extension it would happen - but the DfT or ROSCO would have to pay for it as there is no guarantee that Virgin would recoup the cost before the franchise change. Same issue as to why the 185s were so shabby by the end of the last TPE franchise as there was no commercial justification for a refurbishment.

 

[edwin_m]

USB ports or sockets for every seat is now a basic requirement for intercity services. Battery packs are helpful but not enough if you have been out for too long, especially with a tablet. I doubt the cost of installing them on Pendolinos would be huge. Free wifi is the same, at intercity prices its a reasonable expectation. People can do without either but shouldn't have to on an intercity service.

Because of the potential productivity benefits of working on the train I'd say mains sockets for laptops are now pretty essential on long-distance services. They could incorporate USB too, but anyone travelling a long way on a train probably has a charger with them (or if they've forgotten their charger they've probably forgotten the cable too).

 

[Chester1]

If the DfT specify it in the franchise extension it would happen - but the DfT or ROSCO would have to pay for it as there is no guarantee that Virgin would recoup the cost before the franchise change. Same issue as to why the 185s were so shabby by the end of the last TPE franchise as there was no commercial justification for a refurbishment.

Haven't the DfT specified work as part of direct awards and built it into payment levels? Last GWR extension springs to mind.

Because of the potential productivity benefits of working on the train I'd say mains sockets for laptops are now pretty essential on long-distance services. They could incorporate USB too, but anyone travelling a long way on a train probably has a charger with them (or if they've forgotten their charger they've probably forgotten the cable too).

Obviously a plug is better but the train will need to be able to supply full power of 14 amps to every socket compared with 2.5 amps for a fast charge usb port. While it's extremely unlikely that maximum power is ever used the contingency needs to be made and that costs money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously a plug is better but the train will need to be able to supply full power of 14 amps to every socket compared with 2.5 amps for a fast charge usb port. While it's extremely unlikely that maximum power is ever used the contingency needs to be made and that costs money.

It doesn't need to supply 13A (there are no 14A mains sockets in the UK). It can and I think does limit to 3A (or less) and the breaker operate above that. It's not for plugging kettles and toasters in, and no electronic device of any kind requires a plug fuse of over 3A.

(It's worth noting that to supply 2.5A at 5V you don't need *anywhere near* 2.5A at 230V going into the transformer - this is essentially why mains distribution is not at extra-low voltage - and indeed why railway overhead is at 25kV and not 230V.)

 

[Elecman]

Indeed a 6 amp 230 volt supply would provide enough power (excluding transformer losses) for 110 USB outlets

 

[The Ham]

Indeed a 6 amp 230 volt supply would provide enough power (excluding transformer losses) for 110 USB outlets

Which even on a train with 80 seats per coach would only require 1 per coach, probably even allowing for losses.

 

[w1bbl3]

Out of interest, what do the East Midlands Trains HSTs (mk3s) have? Do they have plugs or USB sockets retro fitted?

EMT haven't retrofitted standard class HST coaches with power sockets or USB, first class coaches have sockets at the tables.
XC fitted a power socket at every seat pair in first and standard.
LNER/EC/GNER fitted a power socket at every seat pair in first and standard, unless its the EMT hire in which thus has sweet FA. LNER/EC/GNER also fitted the mk4's to the same standard.
GWR fitted a power socket at every seat pair in standard. In first the allocation was one power socket and 1 No USB at every single seat or two power sockets with 2 No USB per table.

Virgin WC do stick out now in terms of the power provision on long distance trains, particular considering the stock was new build and that the Voyagers ordered at the same time have sockets throughout. GWR and GNER/EC/LNER have been running high speed fleets with sockets throughout for over a decade now. I'm surprised that fitment hadn't been specified at one of the direct awards, I would have expected the aborted franchise award to have seen sockets fitted as part of the rebranding.

 

[100andthirty]

Even in the home, a ring main is incapable of supplying 13 A to every socket on the ring main. Train designers takes view on the likely uses and side the supply to the power sockets accordingly. One supplier, who was faced with retrofitting power sockets an existing train ran a "bring your devices to work" day to assess what might be used. They generally take the view that customers won't use 3kW fires, vacuum cleaners, hair dryers and curling tongs on a train. That said, I have heard that hair dryers and curling tongs have been used!

 

[dk1]

I wasn't always under the impression that providing more sockets on the 390 fleet was a rather large job & that space was very limited to retrofit them. It's a pain I suppose as people have somehow come to expect such extras but regulars, knowing the table seats are like gold dust, plan their life accordingly.

 

[route101]

Took Virgin from Glasgow to Carlisle and back yesterday , ticket inspection was done before entering platform 1 and 2 therefore no ticket check enroute to Carlisle . Had a Virgin trains only return to Carlisle £11.20 with the railcard . Ive noticed that fare before but was it stopped and now back ?
Kinda wish i could take earlier train to Preston from Glasgow on the off peak day return as thats £18.10 return on railcard .

 

[Elecman]

Even in the home, a ring main is incapable of supplying 13 A to every socket on the ring main. Train designers takes view on the likely uses and side the supply to the power sockets accordingly. One supplier, who was faced with retrofitting power sockets an existing train ran a "bring your devices to work" day to assess what might be used. They generally take the view that customers won't use 3kW fires, vacuum cleaners, hair dryers and curling tongs on a train. That said, I have heard that hair dryers and curling tongs have been used!

Not only can a domestic 2.5mm ring main deliver a total of 32 amps, a twin 13amp socket outlet is actually Not designed to provide more than 20 amps

 

[Andy25]

Not down to VTWC, directly anyway but the ALSTOM/Siemens merger or is that Siemens takeover and obviously there thought on cost cutting or is that greater productivity from a smaller workforce.

ALSTOM are taking on other work for TPE at there West Coast depots as well, Mk5a sets and the Class 397 so let's hope they can cope and able to keep up a good standard that they had attained.

The redundancies are purely to cut costs for Pendolino maintenance so that pence per mile is competive for the WCP tenderer.

Fear was that at current lease cost the Pendolino would be dropped for something new and cheaper to maintain (nobody cares that a tilting train will always cost more to maintain .

 

[jyte]

It would be something of an embarrassment for the WCML to revert to 110mph operation...

 

[Andy25]

It would be something of an embarrassment for the WCML to revert to 110mph operation...

Depends how the trains are used, in a combined HS2 network the Pendolinos could become a "stopper" service and top speed in some areas not as necessary. And with track upgrades 125mph could be possible without tilt for areas where it is still needed.

 

[EE Andy b1]

It would be something of an embarrassment for the WCML to revert to 110mph operation...

This maybe something that happens anyway in the future when/if HS2 arrives. There maybe more stretches of line that could be 125 mph non-tilt (non-EPS) with some work. I bet Network Rail would be glad to get rid of tilt and has been said before, I don't think any more tilting trains will be built for the UK.

If @Andy25 is correct that staff cutbacks at Alstom are down to cost cutting for the WCP due to the expense of Class 390 maintenance then maybe a non-tilt future downgraded semi-fast West Coast service will suite all involved, except passengers but who really cares about them?

 

[AndrewE]

Depends how the trains are used, in a combined HS2 network the Pendolinos could become a "stopper" service and top speed in some areas not as necessary. And with track upgrades 125mph could be possible without tilt for areas where it is still needed.

er, it's still about another 250 miles north from Crewe to Glasgow and Edinburgh, so not cutting the top speed will be quite important. Lots of us don't just want to go south from "the Northern Powerhouse" to London, you know.

 

[edwin_m]

er, it's still about another 250 miles north from Crewe to Glasgow and Edinburgh, so not cutting the top speed will be quite important. Lots of us don't just want to go south from "the Northern Powerhouse" to London, you know.

The trains from Crewe to Glasgow/Edinburgh will be classic compatibles. I'm sure there is some work going on somewhere to looks at upgrading non-EPS speeds to more than 110mph where possible - there are several long straight stretches where there's probably no reason why not.

 

[Andy25]

er, it's still about another 250 miles north from Crewe to Glasgow and Edinburgh, so not cutting the top speed will be quite important. Lots of us don't just want to go south from "the Northern Powerhouse" to London, you know.

I appreciate that but maybe in new franchise the cost of mantaining tilt isn't justified in the 15-20 minute journey saving for the percentage of passengers that make that journey.

Hopefully they keep the tilt as seems a shame to take a leap forward with HS2 then a step back on the 390 side.

 

[mmh]

If there were significant stretches of the WCML that could be 125mph without tilt, why wouldn't they already exist - that is why would Railtrack / NR have gone to the expense of tilt sections where they're not needed?

The EPS speed limits don't just blanketly upgrade 110 to 125, there are much bigger EPS speed differentials at places with lower than 110mph conventional linespeed.

 

[87015]

If there were significant stretches of the WCML that could be 125mph without tilt, why wouldn't they already exist - that is why would Railtrack / NR have gone to the expense of tilt sections where they're not needed?

The EPS speed limits don't just blanketly upgrade 110 to 125, there are much bigger EPS speed differentials at places with lower than 110mph conventional linespeed.

No 125 non-tilt on WCML proper were permitted by VTWC under the “renegotiated” upgrade. Every non-tilt train of course automatically fell over at 111mph according to them. No-one, ever, ever, recorded anything against that.

 

[Andy25]

If there were significant stretches of the WCML that could be 125mph without tilt, why wouldn't they already exist - that is why would Railtrack / NR have gone to the expense of tilt sections where they're not needed?

The EPS speed limits don't just blanketly upgrade 110 to 125, there are much bigger EPS speed differentials at places with lower than 110mph conventional linespeed.

To achieve 125mph without tilt would require sections of track to be straightened.

I would assume there were building constraints and costs that prevented it from being done at the time. And now that we have Pendolinos there is no incentive to do it.

Somebody would have to provide a business case for WCP to straighten the track to accommodate non tilting HS2 compatible stock at the higher speed.

 

[The Planner]

125mph non tilt is being actively looked at and in some depth too for classic compatibles. As for the 110 vs 125 debate, it is still amongst the theories that it was done for business case purposes to get the numbers to add up.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Plus let's not forget, when the original plan for tilt on the West Coast was drawn up it was for 140 mph running with in-cab signalling but dropped because of costs!!

 

[43096]

To achieve 125mph without tilt would require sections of track to be straightened.

I would assume there were building constraints and costs that prevented it from being done at the time. And now that we have Pendolinos there is no incentive to do it.

Somebody would have to provide a business case for WCP to straighten the track to accommodate non tilting HS2 compatible stock at the higher speed.

Of course, it was not unknown for traction to do 125mph on the West Coast pre-upgrade (and pre-OTMR* of course), particularly HSTs withbtheir superior braking performance.

* OTMR = On Train Monitoring and Recording, the railway equivalent of an aircraft’s “black box” data recorder.

 

[td97]

125mph non tilt is being actively looked at

Indeed it is, from Rugeley northwards.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed it is, from Rugeley northwards.

With HS2 reaching Crewe (hopefully) soon after Phase 1 reaches Lichfield, there's little point in spending a fortune on that very winding stretch.
And once you are past Weaver Jn there's very little straight track for 125mph.
Maybe suitable bits around Coppull and Garstang, and around Lockerbie, otherwise it's realignment or new build.
The climate for big spend on HS2-linked enhancements is poor at the moment, with Phase 1 costs escalating and Phase 2 "not in the bag".
Meanwhile HS2 Ltd is rushing on with the non-tilt rolling stock procurement before the WCML route strategy is defined.
There's also nothing in NR's CP6 plan for this, and by 2024 (CP7) it will be too late to get upgrades done in time for the start of HS2 services.