Arriva Rail North DOO

[pt_mad]

Or it could just mean that we are condemned to a re-run of this debacle at a later date, a.k.a. kicking the can down the road.

That's up to the decision makers if that's how they wish it to go?

 

[yorkie]

Please can we not stray too far off topic.

If anyone wishes to post about something else, please do so in an appropriate thread, or create a new one. If anyone has any ideas/suggestions, then create a thread in Speculative Ideas

 

[pt_mad]

Could it not be possible that if this new fleet is adapted for guard door operatoon, and that process is established on the new fleet, and ASLEf are happy, and TfN, that that process is very likely to remain like that for most of the life of the new fleet going forward?

 

[LowLevel]

Could it not be possible that if this new fleet is adapted for guard door operatoon, and that process is established on the new fleet, and ASLEf are happy, and TfN, that that process is very likely to remain like that for most of the life of the new fleet going forward?

It's already entirely set up for any variant of crew operation or DOO. The plan has always been to introduced them as guard operated in the first instance anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could it not be possible that if this new fleet is adapted for guard door operatoon, and that process is established on the new fleet, and ASLEf are happy, and TfN, that that process is very likely to remain like that for most of the life of the new fleet going forward?

They don't need to be adapted for guard operation, they (like most or all new stock) are being delivered as capable of both DOO and guard operation.

 

[pt_mad]

It's already entirely set up for any variant of crew operation or DOO. The plan has always been to introduced them as guard operated in the first instance anyway.

They don't need to be adapted for guard operation, they (like most or all new stock) are being delivered as capable of both DOO and guard operation.

Oh ok thanks.

In that case, if a guard method of door operation is established and agreed between both unions, would it not be likely that this established method will then remain for the lifespan of the stock, especially with TfN supporting a fully staffed train?

 

[driver_m]

A victory by the union does not mean that they were right, simply that it is no longer worth Northern and the DfT's while fighting them.

We can all highlight words. However it is only your opinion and not fact about whether anyone has won or not. I am just merely stating that IMO they did the right thing from the word go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh ok thanks.

In that case, if a guard method of door operation is established and agreed between both unions, would it not be likely that this established method will then remain for the lifespan of the stock, especially with TfN supporting a fully staffed train?

It may or may not be. Southern introduced trains with guarded operation and moved them to DOO.

 

[pt_mad]

We can all highlight words. However it is only your opinion and not fact about whether anyone has won or not. I am just merely stating that IMO they did the right thing from the word go.

I suppose no matter what anyone's opinion on the subject one way or the other, even the fact that the DfT and TfN have relaxed the plans enough to say their trains will have a second member of staff, it contradicts any commentators who said that the strike would achieve nothing and would not stop the planned version of DOO.

Is it not the strike action which has achieved this quite drastic change of tone due to TFN commenting they are prepared to reach agreement for the sake of travelers in the north?

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't see anywhere in the statement from TfN that, if DCO capable services are eventually introduced, they won't support them. They have only said they want a second person on the train and then also only using the present tense in the sentence.

 

[Carlisle]

Or it could just mean that we are condemned to a re-run of this debacle at a later date, a.k.a. kicking the can down the road.

Yes indeed, if northern and DFT want to retain any credibility in the next few months they should at least insist on a properly thought out OBS type role, perhaps resembling deals on GA or Merseyrail, or the Southern option, not merely agree driver open guard close to stop any risk of further action.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes indeed, if northern and DFT want to retain any credibility in the next few months they should at least insist on a properly thought out OBS type role, M resembling jobs on Southern, GA or Merseyrail, not merely agree driver open guard close to stop any risk of further action.

You can hardly call the Merseyrail situation "properly thought out". As things stand they'll just be reading the paper.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Yes indeed, if northern and DFT want to retain any credibility in the next few months they should at least insist on a properly thought out OBS type role, not just agree driver open guard close to stop any risk of further action.

What credibility would that be then? Pretty sure the timetable debacle has all but destroyed that already at least in the eyes of most real world passengers. In fact there are probably many of those passengers who would applaud Northern/DfT for bringing the dispute to a sharpish conclusion regardless of the political cost. It's not as if introducing DOO was going to lead to fare reductions so why would passengers care?

 

[yorkie]

We can all highlight words. However it is only your opinion and not fact about whether anyone has won or not. I am just merely stating that IMO they did the right thing from the word go.

And plenty of people disagree with that opinion, as the evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What credibility would that be then? Pretty sure the timetable debacle has all but destroyed that already at least in the eyes of most real world passengers. In fact there are probably many of those passengers who would applaud Northern/DfT for bringing the dispute to a sharpish conclusion regardless of the political cost. It's not as if introducing DOO was going to lead to fare reductions so why would passengers care?

Agreed, I don't think Northern has any credibility - and as someone with mixed views on DOO I don't think that is the primary issue - it's chronic mismanagement.

 

[pt_mad]

Yes indeed, if northern and DFT want to retain any credibility in the next few months they should at least insist on a properly thought out OBS type role, perhaps resembling deals on GA or Merseyrail, or the Southern option, not merely agree driver open guard close to stop any risk of further action.

If the ASLEf action on Southern was anything to go by and TfN are saying they wish to reach agreement for the good of the traveling public then will the powers wish to push ASLEf towards DCO or consider maintaining the status quo?

 

[Carlisle]

What credibility would that be then? Pretty sure the timetable debacle has all but destroyed that already at least in the eyes of most real world passengers. In fact there are probably many of those passengers who would applaud Northern/DfT for bringing the dispute to a sharpish conclusion regardless of the political cost. It's not as if introducing DOO was going to lead to fare reductions so why would passengers care?

As I’ve previously stated, read any comments section below the various news sites or papers reporting on the strike action and they’ll suggest a mixture of views, and perhaps a few more actually aware of the RMTs true motives, than you might think. Of course I can’t say how representative those actually are.

 

[scrapy]

shut ticket offices. easy loss when there is a vending machine.
What can you do at a ticket office you cant do at a TVM?

I don't think this dispute being resolved or not will have any bearing over shutting at least some ticket offices. It wouldn't surprise me if that happened whether or not DOO came in. I do know a few details of the Merseyrail agreement and shutting or reducing ticket office hours isn't part of it, however that's not to say ticket offices won't be shut or hours reduced I'm sure it's something that's been considered whether or not DOO came in.

As for Northern their ticket machines can't do a lot ticket offices can for example, take cash, sell rovers, sell railcards. Many can't even issue tickets at all due to regularly going out of service. Many also sell or offer first dearer tickets than people need to pay.

 

[Carlisle]

What credibility would that be then? Pretty sure the timetable debacle has all but destroyed that already at least in the eyes of most real world passengers. ?

Except those that remember the strikes being called immediately after it, even against the advice of some prominent left wing politicians

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Except those that remember the strikes being called immediately after it, even against the advice of some prominent left wing politicians

1. The campaign of strike action started long before the timetable fiasco.
2. RMT cut itself adrift of mainstream political parties a long time ago and evidently see no benefit in reversing that.

Most passengers have long since given up caring about the roots of the dispute, they just want it resolved above all else.

 

[ComUtoR]

What can you do at a ticket office you cant do at a TVM?

Priv tickets and other specific discounts.

 

[woodmally]

1. The campaign of strike action started long before the timetable fiasco.
2. RMT cut itself adrift of mainstream political parties a long time ago and evidently see no benefit in reversing that.

Most passengers have long since given up caring about the roots of the dispute, they just want it resolved above all else.

I'd agree with most of that. However there is talk of RMT reaffiliating. They had a few debates about it. The RMT rep at our public meeting was in favour but he said many were saying not yet because presumably too many Blairites in the party still. However you are correct in the view of passengers. We just want it sorting.

 

[Carlisle]

shut ticket offices. easy loss when there is a vending machine.
?

However a decision to abolish those roles should be based primarily on the grounds of technological replacements being acceptable or superior for most users, not simply because their lack of ability to halt train services during disputes makes them easier to cull

 

[LOL The Irony]

So, the rmt & Northern are holding talks and the introduction of the CAF units have been delayed until spring. Could they be being fitted with guard door controls?

 

[Starmill]

Could they be being fitted with guard door controls?

I'm sure it has already been confirmed that, like nearly all new rolling stock, they are.

 

[LowLevel]

So, the rmt & Northern are holding talks and the introduction of the CAF units have been delayed until spring. Could they be being fitted with guard door controls?

They've always been fully fitted for guard or driver door operation and they've always been intended to be guard operated in the first instance regardless.

 

[pt_mad]

So, the rmt & Northern are holding talks and the introduction of the CAF units have been delayed until spring. Could they be being fitted with guard door controls?

So, why the delay in introduction?

 

[Robertj21a]

So, why the delay in introduction?

Nobody trained ?

 

[driver_m]

And plenty of people disagree with that opinion, as the evidence suggests otherwise.

I think you're wrong too.

 

[northwichcat]

So, why the delay in introduction?

Nobody trained ?

Reported in 195 thread that training program was agreed and then ASLEF claimed Northern tried to change it so no driver training is taking place on 195s.