Arriva Rail North DOO

[scrapy]

The future role of retained guards, with whatever amended job title, could still depend on ASLEF. A month ago Northern was saying that the new trains would be infiltrated into service from December onwards. But this week they have said that the trains will not enter service before the May timetable change due to there being no agreement (yet) with ASLEF about the training programme required for new traction. It seems highly likely that the hold-up is about door operation. As such there is little point in RMT discussing any change to the role of the guard without there first being a clear understanding about what drivers will or will not do in future. Unless of course Northern declares itself to be no longer interested in introducing DOO operation. When I first heard about the government intervention I was hopeful that finally progress could be made but on reflection I think the dispute has some time to go before it is resolved.

The hold up to the training programme has nothing to do with DOO. It hasn't even been discussed with ASLEF. Northern tried to include responsibility for SDO but this was rejected by ASLEF and is now in the guards training package. The training programme was agreed with ASLEF. The sticking point is that Northern are now saying the training programme (and agreed payments for undertaking training on rest days) only applies to fully qualified drivers (non PQA) and newly qualified drivers will get less. Also as the training needs to be over 7 consecutive days (5 days if not signing both 331s and 195s) there is debate over whether drivers can be forced to work rest days to cover this even if it's been agreed with ASLEF is there anything the company can do if individual drivers refuse it? There are also some minor details regarding travel and lodging agreements for specific depots to be resolved. At the moment ASLEF are in a 'fail to agree' position with the company, although that could escalate to industrial action this is unlikely as it's in Northerns interest to resolve it quickly.

None of the new trains have been signed off yet so training cannot even begin with an agreement. The latest ive heard is very limited introduction in March (not diagrammed) with more from May. Northern are still misinforming passengers on Twitter though that these trains will be introduced this year!

 

[Bantamzen]

Presumably if ASLEF disagree with any change in the role of the guard, we are just back to the status quo, in which case what does it matter, so long as the trains are running.

The RMT agreeing on changes to the guard role, which ASLEF may or may not agree to, is a lot less damaging than saddling the railway in the North of England with a highly destructive industrial action, which is probably already causing long term damage to the rail industry here.

Not just the rail industry, there are critical signs that it is having an impact on local economies especially in the run up to Christmas. In light of an apparent shift, I can't help but feel now would be a good time for the RMT to suspend the current round of Saturday strikes as a goodwill measure in leau of further discussions with all parties. Otherwise support for them is going to be as short as Saturday services across the North of England.

 

[HowardGWR]

Am I right in thinking that, on those Northern lines where one can legally get on a train without a ticket, as long as one contacts the 'second person on board' immediately, that this system of fare collection can only operate if there is indeed a 'second person on board'?
Of course I know the answer to that question, but would it be possible if, as an outsider, someone could tell me which lines we are talking about here. I have travelled on the Leeds to Skipton line and as far as I could see, the fare collecton system relied totally on ticket inspection by an onboard person. I don't remember any barriers at Skipton, nor at the Leeds dead-end platforms, nor anywhere else on the station (I didn't leave as I was changing from XC to Northern).

Is there a summary of routes where barriers obviate this need, other than roaming TTIs? In other words, fully barriered? I had assumed Liverpool to Manchester might be an example. Much obliged for any info, as it helps to understand this dispute. Even if all trains and platforms on Northern lines could work DCO satisfactorily with cameras and / or dispatch staff, one still has to collect fares!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern are moving away from on-board ticketing, installing TVMs at even very quiet stations. At the moment if paying by cash one can still pay onboard where the TVM doesn't take cash, but I don't doubt they are trying to remove this in some way knowing how Arriva work.

 

[evoluzione]

The hold up to the training programme has nothing to do with DOO. It hasn't even been discussed with ASLEF. Northern tried to include responsibility for SDO but this was rejected by ASLEF and is now in the guards training package. The training programme was agreed with ASLEF. The sticking point is that Northern are now saying the training programme (and agreed payments for undertaking training on rest days) only applies to fully qualified drivers (non PQA) and newly qualified drivers will get less. Also as the training needs to be over 7 consecutive days (5 days if not signing both 331s and 195s) there is debate over whether drivers can be forced to work rest days to cover this even if it's been agreed with ASLEF is there anything the company can do if individual drivers refuse it? There are also some minor details regarding travel and lodging agreements for specific depots to be resolved. At the moment ASLEF are in a 'fail to agree' position with the company, although that could escalate to industrial action this is unlikely as it's in Northerns interest to resolve it quickly.

None of the new trains have been signed off yet so training cannot even begin with an agreement. The latest ive heard is very limited introduction in March (not diagrammed) with more from May. Northern are still misinforming passengers on Twitter though that these trains will be introduced this year!

Current RDW agreement also expires mid January.

 

[underbank]

Northern are moving away from on-board ticketing, installing TVMs at even very quiet stations. At the moment if paying by cash one can still pay onboard where the TVM doesn't take cash, but I don't doubt they are trying to remove this in some way knowing how Arriva work.

Seems a good idea to me. Far too much fare dodging on the busy trains where it's physically impossible for the guard to collect fares due to short journeys and rammed trains. The sheer number of people who don't pay on the Lancaster<>Morecambe branch is quite spectacular to see, the same on the Barrow trains between Lancaster<>Carnforth. Even on average loaded trains, the guard simply can't collect fares quick enough. At least with ticket machines on stations, people boarding without tickets can be prosecuted/fined so it will act as a real deterrent.

 

[Bantamzen]

Am I right in thinking that, on those Northern lines where one can legally get on a train without a ticket, as long as one contacts the 'second person on board' immediately, that this system of fare collection can only operate if there is indeed a 'second person on board'?
Of course I know the answer to that question, but would it be possible if, as an outsider, someone could tell me which lines we are talking about here. I have travelled on the Leeds to Skipton line and as far as I could see, the fare collecton system relied totally on ticket inspection by an onboard person. I don't remember any barriers at Skipton, nor at the Leeds dead-end platforms, nor anywhere else on the station (I didn't leave as I was changing from XC to Northern).

Is there a summary of routes where barriers obviate this need, other than roaming TTIs? In other words, fully barriered? I had assumed Liverpool to Manchester might be an example. Much obliged for any info, as it helps to understand this dispute. Even if all trains and platforms on Northern lines could work DCO satisfactorily with cameras and / or dispatch staff, one still has to collect fares!

The Aire Valley (as well as the Wharfe) route is now a Penalty Fare line, with TVMs at all stations along the route & passengers are expected to buy a ticket, or obtain a 'Promise To Pay' if they don't have a suitable payment card & buy onboard. This will be the norm across the entire Northern network in the coming months. There is a separate thread on this subject, where the application of it can be discussed in more detail. There are however now barriers at Leeds (and have been for some time), as well as both Bradford stations and many others (not sure about Skipton, its been a while since I've been through there). Most others remain un-barriered, however semi-regular checks are made by Revenue Protection teams who move from station to station, as well as having routine checks at some.

 

[Meerkat]

As there are quite a few drivers on here - can I ask what your opinion of DOO is please? Is it....
a) Total no to protect guard jobs
b) Total no because you think it is unsafe
c) total no because you don’t want the extra responsibility/workload
d) yes if it’s a chance to get more money
e) secretly you would do it for no more money as it adds interest/challenge to your job (only secretly because you don’t want to put the bosses off giving you more money. You aren’t stupid!)

 

[northwichcat]

Northern are moving away from on-board ticketing, installing TVMs at even very quiet stations. At the moment if paying by cash one can still pay onboard where the TVM doesn't take cash, but I don't doubt they are trying to remove this in some way knowing how Arriva work.

Yesterday evening both TVMs at Greenbank were out-of-order (one is new so may not be probably set up yet.) On the 17:02 Chester to Manchester the guard walked through once between Greenbank and Knutsford but that wasn't to sell tickets, so anyone travelling from Greenbank to Northwich/Lostock Gralam/Plumley who didn't already have a ticket wasn't given the option of buying one, anyone travelling between Greenbank and Knutsford would have stopped by the RPIs at Knutsford.

 

[Dave1987]

As there are quite a few drivers on here - can I ask what your opinion of DOO is please? Is it....
a) Total no to protect guard jobs
b) Total no because you think it is unsafe
c) total no because you don’t want the extra responsibility/workload
d) yes if it’s a chance to get more money
e) secretly you would do it for no more money as it adds interest/challenge to your job (only secretly because you don’t want to put the bosses off giving you more money. You aren’t stupid!)

I did not think you or others cared about drivers opinions so why would we even bother answering that question? I notice that there is a slight tinge of suspicion in your post as well. You and others have never done my job yet you seem to be the moral authority on it.

 

[northwichcat]

As there are quite a few drivers on here - can I ask what your opinion of DOO is please? Is it....
a) Total no to protect guard jobs
b) Total no because you think it is unsafe
c) total no because you don’t want the extra responsibility/workload
d) yes if it’s a chance to get more money
e) secretly you would do it for no more money as it adds interest/challenge to your job (only secretly because you don’t want to put the bosses off giving you more money. You aren’t stupid!)

I wonder if an anonymous poll would be the best way of answering your question. The ones who don't agree with the union's stance on certain issues seem to be given a hard time by their colleagues.

 

[PR1Berske]

I did not think you or others cared about drivers opinions so why would we even bother answering that question? I notice that there is a slight tinge of suspicion in your post as well. You and others have never done my job yet you seem to be the moral authority on it.

I genuinely think he was just asking a question.

 

[Dave1987]

I genuinely think he was just asking a question.

I doubt it. If they were just asking then why did they insinuate that drivers are just money grabbing ******? Why not ask a genuine question for drivers views?

 

[Carlisle]

I did not think you or others cared about drivers opinions so why would we even bother answering that question? I notice that there is a slight tinge of suspicion in your post as well. You and others have never done my job yet you seem to be the moral authority on it.

Dave, what about your post a few years back suggesting your able to safely fly an airliner full of passangers on holiday to Europe despite not being a qualified pilot

 

[Dave1987]

I genuinely think he was just asking a question.

People who don't do the job don't understand the great value of having a guard onboard. They can deal with soooo many things that makes your job easier. Knowing that you are guaranteed to have a fully competent knowledgable person on board is great. Having some minimum wage contractor with a smart phone who probably knows absolutely nothing is practically worthless. If a second person is optional then I driver might as well assume they aren't going to turn up as you cannot rely on them turning up.

 

[Dave1987]

Dave, what about your post a few years back suggesting your able to safely fly an airliner full of passangers on holiday to Europe despite not being a qualified pilot

You like other know nothing about me!

 

[Meerkat]

I doubt it. If they were just asking then why did they insinuate that drivers are just money grabbing ******? Why not ask a genuine question for drivers views?

Understand the cynicism but the insinuation was not there (unless I am insinuating all of us are money grabbers).
I reckon any worker asked to take more work and/or responsibility is going to ask if there is more money (or career acceleration), and if there isn’t will be pondering whether they can be bothered.
So the money option is kind of the middle ground between not wanting to do it and actively fancying a bit more responsibility/workload.

 

[northwichcat]

People who don't do the job don't understand the great value of having a guard onboard. They can deal with soooo many things that makes your job easier.

Many hands make light work just as long as too many cooks don't spoil the broth. It's the same with most jobs.

 

[Robertj21a]

People who don't do the job don't understand the great value of having a guard onboard. They can deal with soooo many things that makes your job easier. Knowing that you are guaranteed to have a fully competent knowledgable person on board is great. Having some minimum wage contractor with a smart phone who probably knows absolutely nothing is practically worthless. If a second person is optional then I driver might as well assume they aren't going to turn up as you cannot rely on them turning up.

Where does a 'minimum wage contractor' come into it ?.
The suggestions so far point towards a position much like the Southern OBS - who are on very good pay.

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks for replies to my questions Bantamzen and jcollins. I gather that even if TVMs were installed everywhere, unless barriers were also installed everywhere, it would be necessary to have frequent checking by TTIs to deal with what you describe as huge fare evasion. Given that having barriers at unmanned stations is less than useless, (thinking of problems of using them by incapacitated and mystified visitors), I don't see how it will ever be possible to replace an OBS type person on Northern trains.

I could imagine that it would be highly desirable to run trains regardless of whether an OBS turns up or not. After all, to delay customers just because of the off chance of a few free-loaders getting a free ride on that one occasion, seems to me to be very silly. If it was known that there was an incapacitated passenger booked for that train somewhere on the route, then a taxi could be ordered to that station for that one-off occasion.

One would hope that these issues could be sensibly discussed between RMT and Northern. After all, the evidence of these issues should now be available from the other lines where OBS are already working.

 

[scrapy]

I wonder if an anonymous poll would be the best way of answering your question. The ones who don't agree with the union's stance on certain issues seem to be given a hard time by their colleagues.

How would you confirm that all those answering were train drivers? There are quite a few people on here with their own agendas who may skew the results.

 

[ComUtoR]

How would you confirm that all those answering were train drivers?

How do you prove any of us are Drivers ?

 

[evoluzione]

How do you prove any of us are Drivers ?

Obviously we’ll just post pics of our bank balances

 

[Meerkat]

Please.
Remember to leave the name, address, and account number in the photo...

 

[LOL The Irony]

Please.
Remember to leave the name, address, and account number in the photo...

You forgot the sort code!

 

[northwichcat]

You forgot the sort code!

And which charity you'd like a Direct Debit set up to.

 

[northwichcat]

Thanks for replies to my questions Bantamzen and jcollins. I gather that even if TVMs were installed everywhere, unless barriers were also installed everywhere, it would be necessary to have frequent checking by TTIs to deal with what you describe as huge fare evasion. Given that having barriers at unmanned stations is less than useless, (thinking of problems of using them by incapacitated and mystified visitors), I don't see how it will ever be possible to replace an OBS type person on Northern trains.

It was established at the consultation stage for the Northern franchise that trains with just a member of staff on board and revenue protection staff/barriers at all stations might be an option for London commuter franchises but that idea is a non-starter in the Northern area.

 

[Meerkat]

It was established at the consultation stage for the Northern franchise that trains with just a member of staff on board and revenue protection staff/barriers at all stations might be an option for London commuter franchises but that idea is a non-starter in the Northern area.

Why was that? Operational, ie too many small stations, or just lack of suitable trains?
Surely personal safety isn’t more of an issue in the north than London’s inner suburbs!!

 

[northwichcat]

Why was that? Operational, ie too many small stations, or just lack of suitable trains?
Surely personal safety isn’t more of an issue in the north than London’s inner suburbs!!

Frequency of service is one of the main reasons. If a line has one train per hour in each direction then it's most cost effective to have ticket checks on board than having ticket checking staff at most/all stations. If a line has a train every 5 minutes then it can be most cost effective to have no staff on the train (other than the driver) and barriers with a couple members of staff at most of the stations and roaming RPIs for those without fixed barriers.

 

[Meerkat]

Good point, thanks