Arriva Rail North DOO

[Carlisle]

Peter Wilkinson aimed his ill thought out crass remarks at ASLEF mainly. He thought the RMT would be easy pickings. Wrong.
.

If it was merely down to Mr Wilkinson, your union wouldn’t have been engaged in a virtually identical dispute a year before that speech when nobody had even heard of him or started another in Scotland well out of his jurisdiction anyway
.tohttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...n-rmt-rail-strike-august-bank-holiday-weekend

 

[northwichcat]

Why. Is it not ASLEF who hold the sway on power. What ASLEF demands ASLEF gets. No wonder they don't strike, they don't have to. Peter Wilkinson aimed his ill thought out crass remarks at ASLEF mainly. He thought the RMT would be easy pickings. Wrong.
ASLEF say's jump. Northern management asks "How high" what makes me laugh is how the management parcels it all up as a great agreement. Since when was blackmail an agreement? The ASLEF overtime working agreement was a good laugh. "Have a £1,000 boys if you agree to work over at time and half when everyone else gets time and a fifth. But you still don't have to work over if you don't want"

No wonder they are having to go running back to the DFT with their tails between their legs waving the begging bowl. Those BMW's in the station car parks owned by drivers that Peter Wilkinson was on about just had a higher spec added.

It's been claimed before freight operators want to poach drivers from TOCs but no-one tries to poach guards from TOCs which means ASLEF can quite often ask for something and get it, while the RMT's position is much weaker hence them using an aggressive striking technique over a change that is a long way off happening and why they are so strongly against trains being able to run without a second member of staff, despite the guarantee of continued employment.

 

[Robertj21a]

the only thing most passengers are bothered is having a functional service to get them to work. northern appear to be incapable of achieving this, guards or no guards.

I'm sure that Northern are quite capable of providing the services that their resources allow. At present, those services need guards - which the RMT like calling out on strike.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure that Northern are quite capable of providing the services that their resources allow. At present, those services need guards - which the RMT like calling out on strike.

There's a lot of cancellations, short formations and services terminating short on days when the guards aren't striking. However, the number of Mon-Fri services which run is substantially higher than the number of services which operate on a strike day despite Northern's other problems.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A strike every week would cause every passenger to question the role of the 2nd staff member.

I think people already are questioning it. I certainly know people (no, not me) who take the line "just sack them all then" and very much support "full" DOO i.e. without OBS as it is used on something like Thameslink. There are then other people who think OBS is the right option. Only a few think the status quo (with the guard operating doors) makes specific sense, and many think the driver already does do it.

One thing I find noticeable is that, in people I've talked to, there is a very significant male-female split in terms of a desire for a second member of staff. My sister in particular has said she will stop using Merseyrail if it goes DOO without a second member of staff as she will not feel safe, even if she objectively is safe. This probably tallies with similar views with regard to crossing roads on the level (even using a pedestrian crossing) vs. using underpasses, where the latter is objectively safer, but fear causes the former to be chosen.

 

[Confused52]

ACAS are an impartial body who try to help resolve the dispute. The Merseyrail dispute ended during ACAS talks because the RMT at Merseyrail were willing to accept door and dispatch duties transferring to the driver and Merseyrail were willing to consider a second person on every service, despite the plan for it being a half baked idea. It seems the RMT at Northern won't even consider the kind of arrangement they've accepted with Anglia, so ACAS mediated talks have got no where so far. Reportedly we are also now in the situation where DfT have relaxed one of the clauses in the franchise agreement regarding DCO and Northern have said they'll meet with the RMT to discuss if they suspend the strike action until the outcome of the talks is known, with the RMT rejecting that calling it a stalling technique.

Where has the bit in bold been reported please?

 

[Robertj21a]

If it was merely down to Mr Wilkinson, your union wouldn’t have been engaged in a virtually identical dispute a year before that speech when nobody had even heard of him or started another in Scotland well out of his jurisdiction anyway
.tohttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...n-rmt-rail-strike-august-bank-holiday-weekend

Yes, I think it's important to keep to the facts which, as far as I'm aware, were that the Wilkinson speech, daft as it was, came well *after* the RMT had already started their various activities. Wilkinson didn't start the dispute.

 

[evoluzione]

Why. Is it not ASLEF who hold the sway on power. What ASLEF demands ASLEF gets. No wonder they don't strike, they don't have to. Peter Wilkinson aimed his ill thought out crass remarks at ASLEF mainly. He thought the RMT would be easy pickings. Wrong.
ASLEF say's jump. Northern management asks "How high" what makes me laugh is how the management parcels it all up as a great agreement. Since when was blackmail an agreement? The ASLEF overtime working agreement was a good laugh. "Have a £1,000 boys if you agree to work over at time and half when everyone else gets time and a fifth. But you still don't have to work over if you don't want"

No wonder they are having to go running back to the DFT with their tails between their legs waving the begging bowl. Those BMW's in the station car parks owned by drivers that Peter Wilkinson was on about just had a higher spec added.

Are you Moonshot in disguise?

That’s not why we got the £1000 payment at all.

 

[Dave1987]

Very interesting article in Modern Railways mag this month. Seems that guards/conductors have every right to believe their jobs and livelihoods are in jeopardy as the treasury are demanding full DOO, and wants rid of all conductors off payrolls. Hmmm so those suggesting the conductors have nothing to fear and should accept a slight adjustment to their roles are being disingenuous, naive or outright lying!

 

[B&I]

Very interesting article in Modern Railways mag this month. Seems that guards/conductors have every right to believe their jobs and livelihoods are in jeopardy as the treasury are demanding full DOO, and wants rid of all conductors off payrolls. Hmmm so those suggesting the conductors have nothing to fear and should accept a slight adjustment to their roles are being disingenuous, naive or outright lying!

I wonder how many guards' salaries we could afford if the Treasury was abolished

 

[B&I]

That's happening already. Surveys have been taken at stations and online to get the views of passengers and each time there's a strike the number of passengers who support services running only if they have a second member of staff on board decreases - it's now around 5%, when it was 25% a few weeks ago. Although, that said the majority of passengers would still prefer a visible staff presence, they just don't support the RMT's view that services should only be allowed to run with a second member of service without exceptions.

Do these surveys include such options as
a. reverting to a situation where guards' employment was not under threat from.the government, meaning that they were not striking every Saturday ?
b. making other changes to the railway service in Oopnorthland which might improve it, such as replacing Northern with someone who knows or cares about running a railway ?

 

[Meerkat]

As this strike is going nowhere what are the nuclear options?
I assume the RMT couldn’t afford to go all out, seven days a week?
What is stopping the redundancy notices going out like on Southern - lack of a deal with ASLEF?
I assume drivers/station staff would walk if there was an attempt to hire strike breakers (assuming they could be found)?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Very interesting article in Modern Railways mag this month. Seems that guards/conductors have every right to believe their jobs and livelihoods are in jeopardy as the treasury are demanding full DOO, and wants rid of all conductors off payrolls. Hmmm so those suggesting the conductors have nothing to fear and should accept a slight adjustment to their roles are being disingenuous, naive or outright lying!

Thanks for pointing this out.
Just to be clear, are you referring to Alan Williams’ tailpiece? Alan can be an amusing pundit and columnist but is hardly an official government spokesperson!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is stopping the redundancy notices going out like on Southern - lack of a deal with ASLEF?

Insufficient rolling stock to switch fully to DOO?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder how many guards' salaries we could afford if the Treasury was abolished

Do you think that the whole of the large numbers of national matters which are controlled by the Treasury will still be performed just to satisfy the single matter referred by you above? Perhaps Sir Humphrey would give you his somewhat convolutedly expressed view on the matter if so asked.

 

[Starmill]

the treasury are demanding full DOO, and wants rid of all conductors off payrolls.

I mean this is not even close to what it says. What's more there is absolutely no evidence that HMT "are demanding full DOO" (whatever 'full' DOO is!).

Don't allow that to put you off posting rubbish though!

Alan can be an amusing pundit and columnist but is hardly an official government spokesperson!

He is the purveyor of his opinion - regardless of whether that is based in any facts.

Regardless of that though, he didn't say what Dave1987 claimed.

 

[Robertj21a]

Very interesting article in Modern Railways mag this month. Seems that guards/conductors have every right to believe their jobs and livelihoods are in jeopardy as the treasury are demanding full DOO, and wants rid of all conductors off payrolls. Hmmm so those suggesting the conductors have nothing to fear and should accept a slight adjustment to their roles are being disingenuous, naive or outright lying!

Dave,

I haven't seen that article but it sounds very much like you may have been taken in (yet again). Does it actually quote a 'proper' source of all these so-called facts, or are you just wanting it to say what suits your own agenda ?

 

[B&I]

Do you think that the whole of the large numbers of national matters which are controlled by the Treasury will still be performed just to satisfy the single matter referred by you above? Perhaps Sir Humphrey would give you his somewhat convolutedly expressed view on the matter if so asked.

Not entirely sure what any of that means. However, the Treasury has presided over nearly a decade of economic stagnation and reduced real term wages for most people. A large number of people on here don't see any justification for guards because they can't see what function they perform. I question why the staff of the Treasury are any different.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not entirely sure what any of that means. However, the Treasury has presided over nearly a decade of economic stagnation and reduced real term wages for most people. A large number of people on here don't see any justification for guards because they can't see what function they perform. I question why the staff of the Treasury are any different.

You need to make your postings a little clearer in that case because your original posting made reference to the abolition of the Treasury as an entity, not for their employed staff, and it was your premise to which my posting made reference to.

 

[B&I]

You need to make your postings a little clearer in that case because your original posting made reference to the abolition of the Treasury as an entity, not for their employed staff, and it was your premise to which my posting made reference to.

Thanks for that valuable contribution. The words 'nit' and 'picking' spring to mind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I mean this is not even close to what it says. What's more there is absolutely no evidence that HMT "are demanding full DOO" (whatever 'full' DOO is!).

We really could do with different terms for "DOO with rostered OBS" and "DOO with no second member of staff as a matter of course" - I suspect people using the term "full DOO" mean the latter.

 

[furnessvale]

We really could do with different terms for "DOO with rostered OBS" and "DOO with no second member of staff as a matter of course" - I suspect people using the term "full DOO" mean the latter.

If there is nobody on the train, nobody on the station and few roving inspectors, who is doing to ensure the revenue stream? Surely there has to be some staff somewhere, just not necessarily in traditional roles.

 

[Dave1987]

I mean this is not even close to what it says. What's more there is absolutely no evidence that HMT "are demanding full DOO" (whatever 'full' DOO is!).

Don't allow that to put you off posting rubbish though!


He is the purveyor of his opinion - regardless of whether that is based in any facts.

Regardless of that though, he didn't say what Dave1987 claimed.

No different to the nonsense half the posters on this thread put on here. This thread is far from an ‘informed discussion’.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there is nobody on the train, nobody on the station and few roving inspectors, who is doing to ensure the revenue stream? Surely there has to be some staff somewhere, just not necessarily in traditional roles.

The point is *on the train*. DOO does not dictate in any way what staff are elsewhere - indeed, if anything I suppose it encourages platform staff for reasons of disabled accessibility. FWIW, London Northwestern south WCML guards barely ever do revenue.

But Metrolink has "nobody on the train, nobody on the station and few roving inspectors" and seems to manage.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thanks for that valuable contribution. The words 'nit' and 'picking' spring to mind.

I see the barrister for the defence has suddenly made a plea of mitigation for their client's mistake and has chosen to make aspersions against the prosecution team...

 

[northwichcat]

Do these surveys include such options as
a. reverting to a situation where guards' employment was not under threat from.the government, meaning that they were not striking every Saturday ?
b. making other changes to the railway service in Oopnorthland which might improve it, such as replacing Northern with someone who knows or cares about running a railway ?

The surveys were purely to discover if the RMT's claim of whether passengers supported the dispute in that they want a guard (not an OBS) on every service with no ifs and no buts is infact true. The survey wording did not specifically mention that all guards have guaranteed employment on their existing pay grade with annual pay reviews until at least 2026 - perhaps if it had done there would been even less passenger support for the strikes. The fact that the strikes have occurred and have caused significant inconvenience to the public means that passengers aren't thinking the most likely reason for there not being a second member is the operator not employing enough staff but that the staff have walked out in an industrial dispute.

Given Abellio's Northern bid reportedly had a commuter network around the main cities on the Northern network where the driver would be the only person on the train but with the benefit of more new trains than Arriva proposed, while Govia's bid reportedly included just as much DOO but not as many new trains are you sure replacing Northern with someone else will have the effect you want?

 

[northwichcat]

Where has the bit in bold been reported please?

I'm sure there was some claim on here that the MD had met with DfT and said he was able to make an improved offer if the RMT got around the table for talks but wanted the RMT to suspend strike action until those talks concluded, to which the RMT responded that's it's a stalling technique and refused to agree to talks.

 

[northwichcat]

If there is nobody on the train, nobody on the station and few roving inspectors, who is doing to ensure the revenue stream? Surely there has to be some staff somewhere, just not necessarily in traditional roles.

Maybe the idea is to move to a German suburban approach where TVMs are plentiful and ticket checks are rare but the penalties for travelling ticket-less act as a huge deterrent?

 

[northwichcat]

Very interesting article in Modern Railways mag this month. Seems that guards/conductors have every right to believe their jobs and livelihoods are in jeopardy as the treasury are demanding full DOO, and wants rid of all conductors off payrolls. Hmmm so those suggesting the conductors have nothing to fear and should accept a slight adjustment to their roles are being disingenuous, naive or outright lying!

As this is the Northern DOO thread it's worth noting that all guards have been given a guarantee they'll remain in employment on the guard grade until after the next general election, so what you say might be a concern for EMT or XC guards given the franchises are coming up for renewal but with Northern guards it's a case of what the post-2025 franchise terms are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe the idea is to move to a German suburban approach where TVMs are plentiful and ticket checks are rare but the penalties for travelling ticket-less act as a huge deterrent?

You mean like Metrolink?