ATW/Keolis Amey Wales stock shortages

[Gareth Marston]

Have you got a source regarding the 144s ? It seems to be suggestion/speculation/rumour at the moment but anything could happen.

Its been suggested repeated quite a few times but never with any accompanying source.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'll believe it regarding 144s when I see it coming from TFW. It seems to be a rumour that was started in Northern Land and just gathered pace and believed. At the moment, TFW are saying that new stock will be coming when built and in 2019, Class 769s. I'm still not expecting a 769 until one actually arrives.

 

[sw1ller]

I'll believe it regarding 144s when I see it coming from TFW. It seems to be a rumour that was started in Northern Land and just gathered pace and believed. At the moment, TFW are saying that new stock will be coming when built and in 2019, Class 769s. I'm still not expecting a 769 until one actually arrives.

With what TfW are promising about removing ALL pacers by 2020, I can’t see them introducing more. Given the public believe 150’s are pacers, I think introducing anything older than a 170 will be met with a lot of anger. (Not including the 230’s, they’re brand new of course)

 

[Cardiff123]

With what TfW are promising about removing ALL pacers by 2020, I can’t see them introducing more. Given the public believe 150’s are pacers, I think introducing anything older than a 170 will be met with a lot of anger. (Not including the 230’s, they’re brand new of course)

What would the public rather up until Christmas 2019? A single Pacer with no prospect of possibly even getting on the train and being left behind, or a seat on a 144?
I think the answer is obvious.
I don't see the problem with hiring any off lease northern Pacers to help cover for the PRM program until the end of next year.
If the entire 144 fleet becomes available in the first few months of 2019 TfW and KA should snap it up immediately.

 

[sw1ller]

I never said it wasn’t a very good option. I’m just stating it could be disastrous in the eyes of the public. I completely agree with what you’ve said.

 

[CardiffKid]

I never said it wasn’t a very good option. I’m just stating it could be disastrous in the eyes of the public. I completely agree with what you’ve said.

Both Ministers and TfW themselves are telling everyone whole listen that the pacers will be gone by Dec 2019.

If the first noticeable improvement post ATW is the (temporary) addition of more pacers to the fleet it’ll be a PR disaster.

 

[sw1ller]

Both Ministers and TfW themselves are telling everyone whole listen that the pacers will be gone by Dec 2019.

If the first noticeable improvement post ATW is the (temporary) addition of more pacers to the fleet it’ll be a PR disaster.

Exactly what I was trying to get at. I didn’t want to say ‘political suicide’ as I do t know enough about politics but it wouldn’t be good.

On a personal note, I’d accept any form of capacity increase, the conditions I see people traveling in are beyond appalling at times. But I fully appreciate that there really isn’t any rolling stock available right now, TfW have been thrown under the bus with the stock.

 

[krus_aragon]

TfW have been thrown under the railbus with the stock.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Cardiff123]

I never said it wasn’t a very good option. I’m just stating it could be disastrous in the eyes of the public. I completely agree with what you’ve said.

1) Whether TfW Rail shout about introducing more Pacers as short term relief throughout 2019 or not, the general public will not notice the difference between a former ATW Pacer or a former Northern 144. They just want a seat on a train to be able to make a journey
2) What's more 'disastorous' in the eyes of the public? Making a journey from Pontypridd to Cardiff on a 144, or not being able to make the journey at all due to severe overcrowding?

Both Ministers and TfW themselves are telling everyone whole listen that the pacers will be gone by Dec 2019.

If the first noticeable improvement post ATW is the (temporary) addition of more pacers to the fleet it’ll be a PR disaster.

More of a PR disaster than the constant daily stream of twitter photos and complaints from angry passengers of being 'dangerously' (as they put it) squeezed on to trains, or being left behind at stations from not being able to board at all?
Things couldn't get any worse for TfW Rail at the moment. If more 144s are introduced for 11 months or so as temporary relief whilst waiting for PRM mods to be done and for the 769s/170s/Mk4s to arrive hopefully by late next year, and if TfW introduce the 144s without shouting about it so only enthusiasts notice, it will be far from a PR disaster.

 

[142Pilot]

144's aren't going anywhere from Northern.

Porterbrook is leaving them as they are until 769's come online.

You can have some angel 142's and be happy.

*Taps nose.

 

[Cardiff123]

144's aren't going anywhere from Northern.

Porterbrook is leaving them as they are until 769's come online.

You can have some angel 142's and be happy.

*Taps nose.

769s are entering in service with Northern in January along with 195s.

 

[142Pilot]

769s are entering in service with Northern in January along with 195s.

Not passenger service.

Considering they havent even got a training plan yet....... And the new traction 195 is rumoured to be a 7 day course. That's for train crew alone.

Then maintenance will need a play with them etc.

A miracle is required for them to see paying customers before spring at the earliest.

 

[sw1ller]

Fixed that for you.

Haha. I was going to type train but think that’s pushing it.

1) Whether TfW Rail shout about introducing more Pacers as short term relief throughout 2019 or not, the general public will not notice the difference between a former ATW Pacer or a former Northern 144. They just want a seat on a train to be able to make a journey
2) What's more 'disastorous' in the eyes of the public? Making a journey from Pontypridd to Cardiff on a 144, or not being able to make the journey at all due to severe overcrowding?



More of a PR disaster than the constant daily stream of twitter photos and complaints from angry passengers of being 'dangerously' (as they put it) squeezed on to trains, or being left behind at stations from not being able to board at all?
Things couldn't get any worse for TfW Rail at the moment. If more 144s are introduced for 11 months or so as temporary relief whilst waiting for PRM mods to be done and for the 769s/170s/Mk4s to arrive hopefully by late next year, and if TfW introduce the 144s without shouting about it so only enthusiasts notice, it will be far from a PR disaster.

Please don’t think I’m in disagreement with you. I wholly agree with what you say. I just think the priorities lie elsewhere and that additional pacers won’t even be considered by the WAG.

 

[Cardiff123]

Please don’t think I’m in disagreement with you. I wholly agree with what you say. I just think the priorities lie elsewhere and that additional pacers won’t even be considered by the WAG.

Sadly I fear you may be right. But I sincerely hope you are not, and Welsh Govt/TfW can see past image and spin and realise what is in the best (if only short term) interests of passengers.

 

[Eccles1983]

What's happening with the 175's frrom TfW? They staying or going?

 

[Paul_10]

As an outsider looking in, its going to be really interesting just where we be of not only in Wales but in Northern England regarding these PRM mods and any cascades because the way things are going, especially in Wales I just can see a major crisis coming up by this time next year because there are still so many trains still need to recieve the PRM mods of not only in Wales but Northern England also and the current rates in both franchies would suggest not all of them will be done on time.

If the planned off lease dates for Northern was accurate then we are already behind scheldue and any cascaded/new stock tends to come into service after any predictions for the most part so it will not surprise me in the slightest if the pacers are still in service in 2020. Lets not let any political stuff get in the way(of failing to fulfill a promise) and not let the passengers suffer further.

If common sence allows it, then if TFW do need additional stock from elsewhere, then it should be Northern's 142's rather than the 144 as there should be no difference for train crew and there will be 142's that will go off lease at some point next year you would think.

 

[PHILIPE]

As an outsider looking in, its going to be really interesting just where we be of not only in Wales but in Northern England regarding these PRM mods and any cascades because the way things are going, especially in Wales I just can see a major crisis coming up by this time next year because there are still so many trains still need to recieve the PRM mods of not only in Wales but Northern England also and the current rates in both franchies would suggest not all of them will be done on time.

If the planned off lease dates for Northern was accurate then we are already behind scheldue and any cascaded/new stock tends to come into service after any predictions for the most part so it will not surprise me in the slightest if the pacers are still in service in 2020. Lets not let any political stuff get in the way(of failing to fulfill a promise) and not let the passengers suffer further.

If common sence allows it, then if TFW do need additional stock from elsewhere, then it should be Northern's 142's rather than the 144 as there should be no difference for train crew and there will be 142's that will go off lease at some point next year you would think.

I wonder if derogation will be granted for Pacers/150/158s. TFW only started PRM Mods about 6 months ago and have 60 units (24 x 168s and 36 x 150s) to be completed. At the moment there are only about 6 of that that have been done. The clock is ticking. They will still have to go to Works whether the 769s ever come or not

 

[Paul_10]

I wonder if derogation will be granted for Pacers/150/158s. TFW only started PRM Mods about 6 months ago and have 60 units (24 x 168s and 36 x 150s) to be completed. At the moment there are only about 6 of that that have been done. The clock is ticking. They will still have to go to Works whether the 769s ever come or not

Common sence should say of course, but I fear all the political backlash will rule the roost unfortunately. Going to be interesting nonetheless though.

 

[anamyd]

Have you got a source regarding the 144s ? It seems to be suggestion/speculation/rumour at the moment but anything could happen.

Unfortunately I haven't I acknowledge that yes

 

[anamyd]

I wonder if derogation will be granted for Pacers/150/158s. TFW only started PRM Mods about 6 months ago and have 60 units (24 x 168s and 36 x 150s) to be completed. At the moment there are only about 6 of that that have been done. The clock is ticking. They will still have to go to Works whether the 769s ever come or not

6...?

158: 818/819/822/823/831 that's 5, and no 150s to my knowledge - is there a 6th unit I'm not aware of...? also you say 60 Sprinter family units with TfW (150/158) but what about the 8 153s...? (The 5 coming from GWR will already be done)

 

[krus_aragon]

What's happening with the 175's frrom TfW? They staying or going?

They're staying until all the new-build Civitys arrive (~2021) then they're off lease.

 

[Parallel]

To be honest, even Angel 142s would be fine. And if they start getting publicity (which they won’t as the franchise already operates 15 of them anyway) then they should spin it as 11 (or x number) of ‘temporary’ trains to ease overcrowding for the short term. At least that says they’re doing something about it. I just hope ‘fleet pride’ doesn’t get in their way (but I fear it will).

Shame those GWR 143s won’t be freed up any time soon.

 

[PHILIPE]

6...?

158: 818/819/822/823/831 that's 5, and no 150s to my knowledge - is there a 6th unit I'm not aware of...? also you say 60 Sprinter family units with TfW (150/158) but what about the 8 153s...? (The 5 coming from GWR will already be done)

One never seems to ever hear anything about the 153s

 

[AMD]

If common sence allows it, then if TFW do need additional stock from elsewhere, then it should be Northern's 142's rather than the 144 as there should be no difference for train crew and there will be 142's that will go off lease at some point next year you would think.

If a transfer of units happens early next year it won't be 142s - all Northern depots sign 142s but only Leeds/ York/ Harrogate/ Sheffield sign 144s, so operationally they're more difficult to diagram at the moment vs a 142, with the shortage of units to fulfil the daily train plan.

 

[anthony263]

Pity TFW couldn't hire in 230001 and 230002 from vivarail if 002 gets fitted with diesel engines and gets a trailer carriage to make it a 3 car unit and they get approval for use. They'd be ideal on the valley lines to free up some pacers to allow other services to be doubled up as many peak services I have seen this last fortnight have only been s 2 car units

 

[mic505]

What about the loco-hauled sets Northern are using, until January?

 

[Cardiff123]

Pity TFW couldn't hire in 230001 and 230002 from vivarail if 002 gets fitted with diesel engines and gets a trailer carriage to make it a 3 car unit and they get approval for use. They'd be ideal on the valley lines to free up some pacers to allow other services to be doubled up as many peak services I have seen this last fortnight have only been s 2 car units

TfW Rail are in a real crisis right now. They need absolutely anything, ideally DMUs, they can get their hands on.

 

[anthony263]

Like what was just suggested about the drs loco hauled sets what about seeing if west coast rail could hire out a loco hauled set like they hsve done recently for northern. It might be expensive but it would be a godsend on the valley lines especially if it freed up some dmus to increase capscity on other services

 

[anthony263]

Pie in the sky thinking get ROC to loan us a 37 towing one of those class 315s if the emu systems can be used with the locomotive

 

[krus_aragon]

Pity TFW couldn't hire in 230001 and 230002 from vivarail if 002 gets fitted with diesel engines and gets a trailer carriage to make it a 3 car unit and they get approval for use. They'd be ideal on the valley lines to free up some pacers to allow other services to be doubled up as many peak services I have seen this last fortnight have only been s 2 car units

That's just what they plan for the 230s that they've ordered, although indirectly. (Release 150s from Conwy Valley, Borderlands and Chester-Crewe duties, so they can return down to the Valleys pool for strengthening / PRM works.