Why hasn't there been an explosion in commuter coaches this year?

[carlberry]

Hopefully Brexit will kill off this particular piece of (Goverment-endorsed) stupidity. Talk about applying the letter rather than spirit of the rules...

Brexit wont kill off any laws (other than a few fiddles that he government thinks they can getaway with). Things like this are unlikely to be on the radar for the government for years, if ever, as the bus and coach industry isnt understood and has no real power in westminster.

 

[Mwanesh]

Talking about the Greenline Hemel service, the journeys that serves the estates, looks like you then have to change coaches on the Town Centre to get to London, although there is 1 through service timetabled in.

You dont change coaches its the same coach that goes all the way.Much like the 755 goes around Luton estates before it goes to London

 

[Andyh82]

Quite. Commuter Coaches are also affected by our own legislation, namely the requirement to stop every 15 miles to qualify for whatever we currently call BSOG. This means those from the Medway Towns having to stop at a suspiciously placed bus stop between the on and off sliproads of the Black Prince Interchange at Bexley, for a handful of passengers a day (if that). Of course, when there are major problems on the A2, this requires either "doubling back" or complex alternative arrangements to be made.

Is that why the Oxford Tube and the X90 stop at the Lewkner Turn off the M40?

 

[goldisgood]

Is that why the Oxford Tube and the X90 stop at the Lewkner Turn off the M40?

Only the Oxford Tube does that, and it is partly because lots of people park there and then take the coach.

 

[Statto]

Only the Oxford Tube does that, and it is partly because lots of people park there and then take the coach.

Speaking of Oxford Tube, Oxford to London coach services one of those that have increased journeys over the years that the service is now 24 hour route, with 2 competing operators, helped by a nearby motorway most of the way, plus most of Oxford housing is in the North & East of the City with the station on the West side which means most passengers for the train have to go through the City Centre, then there's changing at the London end, meaning the coach can be as quick as the train.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Only the Oxford Tube does that, and it is partly because lots of people park there and then take the coach.

Indeed - it's much handier for people in places like Chinnor and Watlington to either park and ride, or kiss and ride, from Lewknor.

 

[PeterC]

Only the Oxford Tube does that, and it is partly because lots of people park there and then take the coach.

I think that the stop was put there for BSOG reasons and the customers came because it was convenient. ENCTS is valid between Oxford and Lewknor.

The X90 doesn't stop at Lewknor but the Airline does. I don't know if ENCTS is valid to Lewknor but then they are very quiet about accepting Park and Ride returns on the night services if you miss the last 400 to Thornhill.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

If commuter coaches as traditionally provided are no longer commercially viable what about a shuttle coach to a decent LU interchange? eg St Albans- Finchley Rd or Stevenage- Golders Green?

 

[AJW12]

I wouldn't say it was the quality of seats on coaches at all.... particularly if you're comparing it to the Thameslink's ironing boards.

I was speaking to a few people affected by Thameslink issues and they mentioned that there were alternative coach services but reasons why they didn't use them:

- The point above about working hours; the people working in the Civil Service might still have the old 9-5 but for the areas in London with the biggest numbers of commuters (the City of London), people (of which I am one) finish any time between 3 and 8.

- The timing of coaches is too rigid and infrequent for commuters compared to trains, and trains are faster. For a lot of commuters, time is money - so an extra tenner for half the journey time is fine - plus a lot of people working in the City living further out are actually quite well off.

- Most coaches, I believe, terminate at Victoria - so if you do work in the City you've then got to get on the tube across. It will take quite a while to get across on the District/Circle lines to Monument and you'd pay an additional train fare. Thameslink stops on Ludgate Hill and Blackfriars without needing to change.

Finally, commuting for a lot of companies isn't what it used to be. The 5 day working week is no longer really a thing - people work from home more and more. The people in my workplace affected by the cock up at Thameslink just didn't bother commuting in at all when the service was bad.

 

[RT4038]

If commuter coaches as traditionally provided are no longer commercially viable what about a shuttle coach to a decent LU interchange? eg St Albans- Finchley Rd or Stevenage- Golders Green?

Probably because when the GTR service improves the commuters would go back to it for the faster journey times. Why would a coach company bother with acquiring vehicles, recruiting staff etc for such an uncertain market?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Probably because when the GTR service improves the commuters would go back to it for the faster journey times. Why would a coach company bother with acquiring vehicles, recruiting staff etc for such an uncertain market?

But you forget the commuter coach boom in the mid 80's lasted long after the railways settled back down... it took yrs for BR to rebuild the confidence.. and of course, in these post austerity days there surely should be the attraction of using a service that adds an hr to your commute but saves you half the cost of your commute?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you forget the commuter coach boom in the mid 80's lasted long after the railways settled back down... it took yrs for BR to rebuild the confidence.. and of course, in these post austerity days there surely should be the attraction of using a service that adds an hr to your commute but saves you half the cost of your commute?

I must admit that one thing that surprises me is that with Northern being so utterly dire at the moment there aren't more of the Cityzap like services, and indeed one of those services failed. I guess it must be because the North West has an excellent motorway network which means that driving instead isn't all that painful unless you're going to Manchester City Centre and even then it isn't *that* bad.

 

[RT4038]

But you forget the commuter coach boom in the mid 80's lasted long after the railways settled back down... it took yrs for BR to rebuild the confidence.. and of course, in these post austerity days there surely should be the attraction of using a service that adds an hr to your commute but saves you half the cost of your commute?

Yes, but they were direct commuter coach services. Taking passengers to LU stations for an overcrowded tube train.... nah! Traffic congestion has got markedly worse since then also.

 

[RT4038]

I must admit that one thing that surprises me is that with Northern being so utterly dire at the moment there aren't more of the Cityzap like services, and indeed one of those services failed. I guess it must be because the North West has an excellent motorway network which means that driving instead isn't all that painful unless you're going to Manchester City Centre and even then it isn't *that* bad.

Unpredictable gridlock on the motorway system at peak periods?

 

[185143]

I must admit that one thing that surprises me is that with Northern being so utterly dire at the moment there aren't more of the Cityzap like services, and indeed one of those services failed. I guess it must be because the North West has an excellent motorway network which means that driving instead isn't all that painful unless you're going to Manchester City Centre and even then it isn't *that* bad.

Last time I drove home from Manchester it took 75 minutes for a 15 mile journey-10 miles of which are on Motorways at 11PM on a Saturday night. It took nearly an hour to get from Piccadilly station to the start of the M602.

Yes. Yes it is *that* bad...

 

[Busaholic]

Yes, but they were direct commuter coach services. Taking passengers to LU stations for an overcrowded tube train.... nah! Traffic congestion has got markedly worse since then also.

Congestion, congestion, congestion... it's the reason why commuter coach services into London are unviable. Longer distance coach passengers are, on the whole, not using the services to get to and from jobs, so are time richer. There are a limited number of corridors into London which don't appear to suffer so much on a day-to-day basis, or where adequate alternatives exist, but they're getting rarer. Those from the Oxford area are fortunate indeed!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

All this talk of congestion.. are coaches on Green Line type services now banned from using bus lanes in London?

 

[Deerfold]

All this talk of congestion.. are coaches on Green Line type services now banned from using bus lanes in London?

Most of these are registered as local bus services and are permitted to use bus lanes. Rules vary as to whether coaches can use bus lanes in London (some they can, some they can't).

 

[duncombec]

Yes, but they were direct commuter coach services. Taking passengers to LU stations for an overcrowded tube train.... nah!

What makes you say that? Kent services have a variety of people who voluntarily alight at Canary Wharf for onward travel by tube - some specifically to avoid further traffic into central London, others because the Jubilee line gets them closer to their destination anyway (e.g. South Bank). Indeed, for a while before its withdrawal the Buzzlines service from Ashford terminated at Canary Wharf, allowing onward travel.

 

[padbus]

Perhaps short term commuter services to take advantage of the rail industry's woes is something that an operation like Snap could consider.

 

[telstarbox]

I honestly don't think it'll make a huge difference.

Let's say your usual train is Haywards Heath to Blackfriars (for the City) which should take 50-55 minutes on time. It's a bad day on Thameslink and your train is 20 mins late once it gets to Blackfriars, so 90-95 minutes. That's still faster than Google Maps' best-case time in the morning peak (and using a motorway for a good chunk of the distance). The coach can use bus lanes here and there but it's still uncompetitive on time.

 

[RT4038]

What makes you say that? Kent services have a variety of people who voluntarily alight at Canary Wharf for onward travel by tube - some specifically to avoid further traffic into central London, others because the Jubilee line gets them closer to their destination anyway (e.g. South Bank). Indeed, for a while before its withdrawal the Buzzlines service from Ashford terminated at Canary Wharf, allowing onward travel.

Yes, some people will do it, but an economical bus load? No. A clue in the phrase 'for a while before its withdrawal' seems to indicate that not enough passengers were prepared to do it in this case!

 

[duncombec]

Yes, some people will do it, but an economical bus load? No. A clue in the phrase 'for a while before its withdrawal' seems to indicate that not enough passengers were prepared to do it in this case!

I beg to differ. I estimate half of our coach load gets off at Canary Wharf every morning. Assuming a quarter of those will travel onwards by tube (which actually be an underestimate), multiplied by the number of coaches the operator has: approx. 170 passengers a day just transferring.

The Buzzlines service was already in in heavy decline before cutting back to Canary Wharf. it was becoming impossible to run a service of 80 miles or more in one single day of driver's hours for other factors (such as the traffic congestion). If anything, the short turn at Canary Wharf kept it running a few months longer.

 

[RT4038]

I beg to differ. I estimate half of our coach load gets off at Canary Wharf every morning. Assuming a quarter of those will travel onwards by tube (which actually be an underestimate), multiplied by the number of coaches the operator has: approx. 170 passengers a day just transferring.

The Buzzlines service was already in in heavy decline before cutting back to Canary Wharf. it was becoming impossible to run a service of 80 miles or more in one single day of driver's hours for other factors (such as the traffic congestion). If anything, the short turn at Canary Wharf kept it running a few months longer.

So a quarter of half a coach load get off at Canary Wharf for onward tube travel. (Unsure of the coach capacity, but guess this is about 60 / 2 / 4 = 8 pax per coach), so the total number of coaches is about 21. I presume that these coaches do not all come from the same place at the same time, so getting a full load of passengers who wish to connect onto the tube [there not being much employment in the vicinity of Golders Green or Finchley Road] would require a very circuitous and slow route to pick them up. This is precisely why this type of commuter coach would not work from the GTR places mentioned, and therefore no operator tried them.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

So a quarter of half a coach load get off at Canary Wharf for onward tube travel. (Unsure of the coach capacity, but guess this is about 60 / 2 / 4 = 8 pax per coach), so the total number of coaches is about 21. I presume that these coaches do not all come from the same place at the same time, so getting a full load of passengers who wish to connect onto the tube [there not being much employment in the vicinity of Golders Green or Finchley Road] would require a very circuitous and slow route to pick them up. This is precisely why this type of commuter coach would not work from the GTR places mentioned, and therefore no operator tried them.

circuitous and slow? St Albans- Golders Green/ Finchley Rd? If you didn't know already Golders Green is where Nat Ex call on their way from Victoria to the M1 and Finchley Road is on the main route out of Central London to the M1 and is already used as a calling point by the 755/757/758

 

[Deerfold]

circuitous and slow? St Albans- Golders Green/ Finchley Rd? If you didn't know already Golders Green is where Nat Ex call on their way from Victoria to the M1 and Finchley Road is on the main route out of Central London to the M1 and is already used as a calling point by the 755/757/758

But they're not all getting off at those 2 stops are they? The coaches continue, mostly to Victoria.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

But they're not all getting off at those 2 stops are they? The coaches continue, mostly to Victoria.

I was referring to a post that said commuter coaches to an outer underground stn wouldn't work because they would be "slow and circuitous" to get to the underground stn

 

[Deerfold]

I was referring to a post that said commuter coaches to an outer underground stn wouldn't work because they would be "slow and circuitous" to get to the underground stn

And they were referring to a case where a significant number of commuters got off at that outer station because it was close to their destination or quicker to travel from - that's not the case for the routes you mentioned.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

And they were referring to a case where a significant number of commuters got off at that outer station because it was close to their destination or quicker to travel from - that's not the case for the routes you mentioned.

no.. but for a significant percentage of rail commuters there is still a tube journey involved at the city end... surely a coach from say St Albans-Golders Green or Finchley Rd would be an attractive alternative as it provides the commuter with much more chance of having a seat on the tube.. I'm sure the time penalty wouldn't be that much over the train... especially with the service being so unreliable atm that people are reportedly leaving home up to an hr earlier than they should need to and getting home just as late!

 

[RT4038]

no.. but for a significant percentage of rail commuters there is still a tube journey involved at the city end... surely a coach from say St Albans-Golders Green or Finchley Rd would be an attractive alternative as it provides the commuter with much more chance of having a seat on the tube.. I'm sure the time penalty wouldn't be that much over the train... especially with the service being so unreliable atm that people are reportedly leaving home up to an hr earlier than they should need to and getting home just as late!

The question originally posed was 'Why hasn't there been an explosion in commuter coaches this year'. Nothing you have written has answered this question, just merely tried to demolish anybody else's reasoning for this! duncombec referred to his experience of (presumably Medway?) commuter coaches arriving at Canary Wharf and about 8 passengers on each transferring to the tube. Each of these coaches would come from a different starting point (or combination of pick up points), so in order to get a full load on one coach it would have to weave a slow and circuitous route via a number (seven?) of starting/ combination of starting points. Once a full load has been picked up, I am sure it would be direct to Golders Green or Finchley Road. However, in the morning peak, I doubt there would be many empty seats on southbound tube trains at these stations. Golders Green to City is a slow journey on the tube, with lots of intermediate stations. On the return in the evening peak these trains will be packed, and the connection with the commuter coach uncertain.
Yes, some commuters would do it, and some more during the worst of the disruption. But would an operator be prepared to take on this risk (and the work of recruiting staff, acquiring vehicles, doing the admin etc), especially suspecting that many of these commuters will go back to their regular trains when normal (ish) working is resumed, and the service likely becomes uneconomic? Coach operators are a canny lot, and will sniff out a worthwhile opportunity. The fact that not one has tried even one service perhaps gives an indication that it was felt simply not worth it. Of course they might all be fat cats, or in some conspiracy with the railway companies etc, but I doubt it.