Arriva Rail North DOO

[Tomnick]

Good for PR, terrible for passengers!

It’s a reasonable offer of a compromise. How is that terrible for passengers?

 

[LOL The Irony]

But.. but.. the RMT are striking for the passenger's safety. Passengers are much safer using unstaffed bus stops to board overcrowded single manned bus services and rail replacement buses operated using by vehicles which wouldn't be allowed to run public bus services anymore, or using Uber if there's no buses. :roll:

They'll probably argue that this "minor" disruption is for the greater good.

 

[northwichcat]

It’s a reasonable offer of a compromise. How is that terrible for passengers?

I was making reference to offering something you know will be rejected just to make it look like you are the ones willing to negotiate.

 

[a_c_skinner]

To me driver open guard close has no huge advantages. It still requires the guard to break off attending to the passengers at each station and the time saving is modest. I cannot see why companies agreed to it or even suggested it, other than as a great British compromise.

 

[northwichcat]

To me driver open guard close has no huge advantages. It still requires the guard to break off attending to the passengers at each station and the time saving is modest. I cannot see why companies agreed to it or even suggested it, other than as a great British compromise.

It's the best of both worlds for the unions - the second person is 'safety critical' and consequently is paid a guard's salary not a RPI's salary while the driver accepts additional responsibility so gets a pay rise for accepting that extra responsibility

 

[a_c_skinner]

Exactly, that is what I was thinking. I suppose it is face saving for the employers.

 

[Tomnick]

To me driver open guard close has no huge advantages. It still requires the guard to break off attending to the passengers at each station and the time saving is modest. I cannot see why companies agreed to it or even suggested it, other than as a great British compromise.

Southern’s OBS implementation has proved that they need to break off attending to passengers at each station anyway, to go to the nearest set of doors to check the platform for anyone needing assistance. They might as well dispatch the train whilst they’re there, providing safety benefits. It’s surely a recipe for confusion anyway, having the driver attempting to dispatch whilst the OBS is preparing to assist a wheelchair user (unseen to the driver), potentially leaving them both behind.

 

[387star]

Southern’s OBS implementation has proved that they need to break off attending to passengers at each station anyway, to go to the nearest set of doors to check the platform for anyone needing assistance. They might as well dispatch the train whilst they’re there, providing safety benefits. It’s surely a recipe for confusion anyway, having the driver attempting to dispatch whilst the OBS is preparing to assist a wheelchair user (unseen to the driver), potentially leaving them both behind.

Exactly

There is little difference to be noted by the uninformed passenger with an OBS rather than a Conductor (Guard) and all trains I travel on appear to have an OBS where they would have had a Conductor

Every station they key in to check for passengers needing assistance

Keying in at a local door prevents the driver moving however should the communication break down and they are able to accidentally depart without them that is a valid reason to continue running without a second person

 

[Muttley]

The 'Greater Anglia style compromise' meets the franchise requirements for Anglia but doesn't for Northern so if Northern came to that style of arrangement with the unions they could be penalised or even be stripped of the franchise, unless DfT approve the change first.

Would it be fair to say that you think in all other depts you think Northern are meeting their franchise targets, and that it's only the RMT striking that has driven so many passengers away ?

 

[northwichcat]

Would it be fair to say that you think in all other depts you think Northern are meeting their franchise targets, and that it's only the RMT striking that has driven so many passengers away ?

Of course I don't. My local line was supposed to get 2tph to Manchester from December 2017 and out of the stations with a standard pattern of 1tph my local station is one of the busiest in the country. Yet that extra service hasn't been delivered and there's talks of it only being delivered in part in May 2019.

 

[Tomnick]

Exactly

There is little difference to be noted by the uninformed passenger with an OBS rather than a Conductor (Guard) and all trains I travel on appear to have an OBS where they would have had a Conductor

Every station they key in to check for passengers needing assistance

Keying in at a local door prevents the driver moving however should the communication break down and they are able to accidentally depart without them that is a valid reason to continue running without a second person

...and there you have the beginnings of a confusing, and potentially dangerous, situation. Driver tries to dispatch, unaware that the OBS has keyed in somewhere along the train. Does this give any indication to the driver on new-ish trains? If not, presumably the driver’s just going to be left wondering why there’s a set of doors that won’t close if the OBS isn’t immediately visible. What if the set of doors that the OBS goes to isn’t near the wheelchair space? It just sounds like a real mess.

 

[Muttley]

Of course I don't. My local line was supposed to get 2tph to Manchester from December 2017 and out of the stations with a standard pattern of 1tph my local station is one of the busiest in the country. Yet that extra service hasn't been delivered and there's talks of it only being delivered in part in May 2019.

So you accept that Northern aren't meeting your standards or their franchise requirements ?

 

[northwichcat]

So you accept that Northern aren't meeting your standards or their franchise requirements ?

What exactly are you trying to get at? DfT and Network Rail have made it impossible for Northern to meet all the original franchise requirements, while combined with Porterbrook's late delivery of the 769s the revised requirements were also impossible. As far as I'm aware CAF are on course to deliver DCO capable trains for Northern to introduce during 2019 so failure to deliver DCO is one requirement they can't blame an external party for - Northern knew the RMT would object when they signed the franchise requirement so knew they would need to find a way to implement it regardless of whether the RMT liked it or not - like Southern did eventually by coming to an agreement with ASLEF.

 

[Carlisle]

[

I see that on the SWT DOO thread, someone has posted that the RMT have said that they would agree to a Greater Anglia style compromise whereby the driver would open the doors and the guard close them.

I believe the Greater Anglo deal intends to give the driver full control of the doors in normal circumstances but requires a fully qualified guard for trains to run outside existing DOO areas.

The RMT offered northern a driver open guard close (scotrail) deal which the TOC rejected before their strike ballot even took place .

 

[Bletchleyite]

But.. but.. the RMT are striking for the passenger's safety. Passengers are much safer using unstaffed bus stops to board overcrowded single manned bus services and rail replacement buses operated using by vehicles which wouldn't be allowed to run public bus services anymore, or using Uber if there's no buses. :roll:

This, on a wider basis, is why I think transport safety spending needs to be considered more widely, and moved away from rail towards road. Rail is VERY safe and is well into the territory of diminishing returns now. Additional rail safety spending would almost certainly save more lives were it spent on fixing dangerous road junctions or on cutting fares pr adding capacity to take journeys out of cars.

 

[Bletchleyite]

...and there you have the beginnings of a confusing, and potentially dangerous, situation. Driver tries to dispatch, unaware that the OBS has keyed in somewhere along the train. Does this give any indication to the driver on new-ish trains? If not, presumably the driver’s just going to be left wondering why there’s a set of doors that won’t close if the OBS isn’t immediately visible. What if the set of doors that the OBS goes to isn’t near the wheelchair space? It just sounds like a real mess.

TBH I'm not convinced by it either precisely because of that flaw. If you are going to have a "guard" on every train, they might as well dispatch, even if that's blowing a whistle and waving a baton[1] at the driver for him to close up and go using DOO equipment. (That method of operation would save a little time over traditional guard closing, not significant on the likes of Northern Connect, but definitely significant on something like Merseyrail or the Hadfield EMUs - close button, check platform, local close, ding ding, ding ding adds about 5-6 seconds per station, which on the Southport line is over a minute on the running time).

[1] Or giving a new bell code which signifies "close up and go" may be better.

 

[AndyHA]

If the RMT are striking for reasons of “passengers safety” . Can some official from that Union explain why they agree to Driver Only Operations back in 1982 for the St Pancras to Bedford Line . Plus lots of other area agreements since ?

 

[Robertj21a]

...and there you have the beginnings of a confusing, and potentially dangerous, situation. Driver tries to dispatch, unaware that the OBS has keyed in somewhere along the train. Does this give any indication to the driver on new-ish trains? If not, presumably the driver’s just going to be left wondering why there’s a set of doors that won’t close if the OBS isn’t immediately visible. What if the set of doors that the OBS goes to isn’t near the wheelchair space? It just sounds like a real mess.

This sounds a bit like somebody scrabbling around looking for problems to highlight. Given that many OBS on Southern have been working for about 12 months now, do you have any evidence of any real problems ?

 

[Robertj21a]

If the RMT are striking for reasons of “passengers safety” . Can some official from that Union explain why they agree to Driver Only Operations back in 1982 for the St Pancras to Bedford Line . Plus lots of other area agreements since ?

I doubt that they will wish to be reminded that DOO has worked so well, on very busy commuter lines, for decades. They want people to believe that it's a new problem.

 

[northwichcat]

This, on a wider basis, is why I think transport safety spending needs to be considered more widely, and moved away from rail towards road. Rail is VERY safe and is well into the territory of diminishing returns now. Additional rail safety spending would almost certainly save more lives were it spent on fixing dangerous road junctions or on cutting fares pr adding capacity to take journeys out of cars.

In my local area it doesn't make any sense why bus services are being reduced due to the local council being unable/unwilling to subside buses, while rail services are set to increase. The local council here won't even pay for new bus stops to be placed on the other side of the road from existing ones, where a circular route has been replaced by a re-routing of a longer service meaning buses run along a road in both directions when previously they only ran in one.

 

[northwichcat]

I doubt that they will wish to be reminded that DOO has worked so well, on very busy commuter lines, for decades. They want people to believe that it's a new problem.

The excuse seems to be drivers weren't as well paid then so were happy to accept DOO in exchange for extra money.

 

[LowLevel]

To me driver open guard close has no huge advantages. It still requires the guard to break off attending to the passengers at each station and the time saving is modest. I cannot see why companies agreed to it or even suggested it, other than as a great British compromise.

I do wish people who haven't the foggiest about our jobs would stop making these stupid comments.

You. Have. To. Do. This. Anyway.

I've tried time and time again to say this and years on this rubbish keeps coming up.

On many Northern lines and other regional routes the guard's job is also station based because there are no station staff.

You have to break off what you're doing regardless.

One - standing in the aisle blocking the way when people are trying to get on and off is a stupid thing to do. You move, you wait for everyone to settle, you start again.

Two - you have to go and see if people on the platform need help because platform staff are generally not a thing away from major terminals and for example if you have multiple bike spaces on a train with uneven loading, who is it that's going to tell the cyclist where to go? The guard.

Three - it allows the guard to do everything you need to do without risk of being left behind, while also allowing them to motivate slow boarders and anything else they might need to do.

I've actually suggested in the past (and I understand to a degree it's what occurs on Southern OBS worked services using a local door switch instead) that if you're obsessed with the concept of the driver closing the doors and seeing the train off then a simple key switch for the guard to operate a light in the cab or similar to confirm that all their duties are complete and they've boarded the train would be a simple and effective way of managing the risk of leaving the crew behind in stupid places.

If you take in one thing on this subject today please allow it to be that the crew on local services have a role that is very much relevant to station working as well as on board.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Anyone on here sorry that the Manchester area to Blackpool North service was given to Northern from TransPennine Express at the last franchise recasting?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Anyone on here sorry that the Manchester area to Blackpool North service was given to Northern from TransPennine Express at the last franchise recasting?

Yes. In return we got 156's 319's and ironing boards. Quite a crap deal.

 

[northwichcat]

Anyone on here sorry that the Manchester area to Blackpool North service was given to Northern from TransPennine Express at the last franchise recasting?

Is that because it's not currently running on Saturday due to the strike action or for another reason? TPE were using rolling stock subleased from Northern on the service prior to the route transferring due to Chiltern nabbing their 170s and there being nothing else for TPE to take on in lieu and the route is supposed to be getting brand new EMUs in the next few months.

 

[LowLevel]

Anyone on here sorry that the Manchester area to Blackpool North service was given to Northern from TransPennine Express at the last franchise recasting?

I would imagine both the passengers and the transferred crews are less than pleased. The conductors in particular go from a guaranteed continued job as a guard with TPE to being thrown into the Northern DCO/DOO uncertainty.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes. In return we got 156's 319's and ironing boards. Quite a crap deal.

You do realise the 156s which were used on Chat Moss were supposed to go on Mid-Cheshire services once the 319s were introduced, that was until Chiltern nabbed the TPE 170s and someone at DfT looked at how they could get Northern to sublease 156s to TPE.

 

[PR1Berske]

I would imagine both the passengers and the transferred crews are less than pleased. The conductors in particular go from a guaranteed continued job as a guard with TPE to being thrown into the Northern DCO/DOO uncertainty.

Passengers finding the last train from Manchester to Blackpool is at about quarter past 7, reducing the place from a place you stay at all night to a place you ignore. The cost to leisure travel must be immense.

 

[LOL The Irony]

You do realise the 156s which were used on Chat Moss were supposed to go on Mid-Cheshire services once the 319s were introduced, that was until Chiltern nabbed the TPE 170s and someone at DfT looked at how they could get Northern to sublease 156s to TPE.

Well I was comparing them to the 185's.

 

[northwichcat]

I would imagine both the passengers and the transferred crews are less than pleased. The conductors in particular go from a guaranteed continued job as a guard with TPE to being thrown into the Northern DCO/DOO uncertainty.

How did they decide which guards moved to Northern and which remained with TPE? I noticed TPE guards who worked Manchester Airport to Blackpool services also worked the western part of North/South TPE.