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Arriva Rail North DOO

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Bletchleyite

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In the future, if you’re on a train with no second member of staff (because someone’s gone sick, or because there’s a vacancy and they don’t want to pay overtime to cover it, or because they haven’t bothered recruiting because there’s no financial incentive to bother, etc.) then they might as well have got rid of them altogether. Once the guarantee of a second member of staff goes, it’s a slippery slope.

I'll be honest, I thought that would be the case on GTR Southern - but thus far there seems no evidence of it being so, and despite being unrecognised by the union (incredibly childish in my view) the role seems to be meeting with some success.
 
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Tringonometry

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It's not only they don't accept DCO. They are lying to the general public saying Northern are getting rid of the guards. They even made a video unguarded. Yet the reality of it is a change of role.

You'll need to square that with the tweet that said "We want to keep a second person on many of our services ..." which suggests that there are at least *some* services where there is no intention to have a second person on the train.
 

Confused52

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You'll need to square that with the tweet that said "We want to keep a second person on many of our services ..." which suggests that there are at least *some* services where there is no intention to have a second person on the train.

Be fair, that is closer to paranoia than evidence. Tweets are unreliable at best and don't require to be squared with other evidence at all.
 

Robertj21a

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During their dispute Southern addressed this concern by constantly stating they would employ OBS at standard train crew ratios and agreed an ‘exceptional circumstances’ list with ASLEF. The result is Southern getting all the performance and customer service benefits they wanted and the OBS remaining in secure employment. The RMT is still in dispute and has nothing to show in over two years for how they have influenced or affected the outcome except plenty of spare membership cards. Perhaps it is all positive evidence that the TOC rather than the RMT genuinely has the best interests of it’s employees at heart?

History does not support the slippery slope argument either. London Overground simply gave notice they would remove guards outright and following a single weekend of industrial action under Bob Crow’s leadership, that was pretty much that. There was no alternative on board position created. LTS rail simply pulled their guards off the new fleet when it came in after privatisation. Gatwick Express went DOO after getting rid of slam door trains in 2005. Barriers were resisted at Gatwick for years by the airport, and the DfT then required Southern to install them at Gatwick and Victoria and re-allocate the ticket collecting staff to man them, which Southern duly did. Realising their mistake, in the latest franchise the DfT required Southern to provide on board staff and now every Gatwick Express has a fully trained On Board Supervisor on it being paid somewhat more than the ticket collectors were.

I do wish you wouldn't put forward hard facts and sensible comments. Don't you know that this thread only survives due to misinformation and scaremongering ?

:rolleyes:
:E
 

Dave1987

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I do wish you wouldn't put forward hard facts and sensible comments. Don't you know that this thread only survives due to misinformation and scaremongering ?

:rolleyes:
:E

I find your post highly amusing particularly as the post you are quoting is inaccurate! CN75 fails to point out that the original Charles Horton master plan had no intention on the OBS role being rostered on every service or exceptional circumstances. They were to be deployed ad-hoc. It was only when ASLEF got involved did the DFT agree to the exceptional circumstances stuff. ASLEF are the ones who got some job security for the OBS. If the original master had been implemented I doubt the OBS would still be in existence. Please don’t accuse others of misinformation and scaremongering when you seem to be swayed by PR spin yourself or attempt to spin the facts to suit your own ideology!
 

scrapy

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You'll need to square that with the tweet that said "We want to keep a second person on many of our services ..." which suggests that there are at least *some* services where there is no intention to have a second person on the train.
Arriva have already confirmed at a meet the manager session in the lakes that this is the case. What they won't commit to is giving any indication of which services except to say they intend to have a guard on trains between Workington and Barrow, or even an approximate percentage of services they intend to run without a second person on board.
 

Carlisle

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Charles Horton master plan had no intention on the OBS role being rostered on every service or exceptional circumstances. They were to be deployed ad-hoc.
As the RMT refused all offers of dialogue on the OBS role, Its impossible to know what assurances and concessions both idees could have agreed on, had meaningful negotiations taken place at the time
 
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CN75

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I find your post highly amusing particularly as the post you are quoting is inaccurate! CN75 fails to point out that the original Charles Horton master plan had no intention on the OBS role being rostered on every service or exceptional circumstances. They were to be deployed ad-hoc. It was only when ASLEF got involved did the DFT agree to the exceptional circumstances stuff. ASLEF are the ones who got some job security for the OBS. If the original master had been implemented I doubt the OBS would still be in existence. Please don’t accuse others of misinformation and scaremongering when you seem to be swayed by PR spin yourself or attempt to spin the facts to suit your own ideology!

In August 2016 it was widely acknowledged that “Southern has committed to every train that currently has a conductor retaining either that conductor or a second member of staff”

“But while offering many concessions (including no compulsory redundancies, no reduction in salary, guaranteed above-inflation pay increases for two years, extra salary for extra overtime, no compulsory location moves, full collective bargaining for the new non-despatch on board roles and a joint review of that role after 12 months), Southern must nevertheless share the blame for the complete mess we now find ourselves in. The union is right to be annoyed by some aspects of the way GTR has handled the dispute - the words ‘ham-fisted’ and ‘heavy-handed’ have sometimes not been out of place.”

(https://www.railmagazine.com/research-hub/comment/rail-807-a-safety-argument).

The formal ASLEF breakdown in industrial relations started in October followed by strikes in November.

It would be fairer to say that GTR had already clearly stated their finished proposals which were subsequently implemented well before ASLEF resolved the later dispute.
 
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Robertj21a

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I find your post highly amusing particularly as the post you are quoting is inaccurate! CN75 fails to point out that the original Charles Horton master plan had no intention on the OBS role being rostered on every service or exceptional circumstances. They were to be deployed ad-hoc. It was only when ASLEF got involved did the DFT agree to the exceptional circumstances stuff. ASLEF are the ones who got some job security for the OBS. If the original master had been implemented I doubt the OBS would still be in existence. Please don’t accuse others of misinformation and scaremongering when you seem to be swayed by PR spin yourself or attempt to spin the facts to suit your own ideology!

Good try, Dave. Are you intending to stick to that version of events - or do you now feel it needs some adjustment ?
 

northwichcat

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I find your post highly amusing particularly as the post you are quoting is inaccurate! CN75 fails to point out that the original Charles Horton master plan had no intention on the OBS role being rostered on every service or exceptional circumstances. They were to be deployed ad-hoc. It was only when ASLEF got involved did the DFT agree to the exceptional circumstances stuff. ASLEF are the ones who got some job security for the OBS. If the original master had been implemented I doubt the OBS would still be in existence. Please don’t accuse others of misinformation and scaremongering when you seem to be swayed by PR spin yourself or attempt to spin the facts to suit your own ideology!

It should be remembered the original Southern and Northern plans are very different. Southern were of the opinion TVMs and ticket barriers were the solution to not having guards - as that meant passengers could still buy tickets and would make it difficult for passengers to travel without, no-one has ever proposed a widespread role out of ticket barriers up here. In fact it was reported Northern bidders (including Govia) told DfT having on board staff was the only viable solution for many Northern routes.
 

Halifaxlad

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In the future, if you’re on a train with no second member of staff (because someone’s gone sick, or because there’s a vacancy and they don’t want to pay overtime to cover it, or because they haven’t bothered recruiting because there’s no financial incentive to bother, etc.) then they might as well have got rid of them altogether. Once the guarantee of a second member of staff goes, it’s a slippery slope.

I haven't been following this thread from the start, nor have had the time to read over 197 pages of it. So forgive me for asking, has anyone pointed out that when Northern begin running these new trains upon the Airevalley and Caldervalley a number of them won't have guards, because these brand new trains don't have corridor connections through the cabs?
 

scrapy

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As the RMT refused all offers of dialogue on the OBS role, Its impossible to know what assurances and concessions both idees could have agreed on, had meaningful negotiations taken place at the time
Have Northern at any time stated an intention to create an OBS role?
 

scrapy

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I haven't been following this thread from the start, nor have had the time to read over 197 pages of it. So forgive me for asking, has anyone pointed out that when Northern begin running these new trains upon the Airevalley and Caldervalley a number of them won't have guards, because these brand new trains don't have corridor connections through the cabs?
Northern have stated that they don't currently intend to run 331s and 195s in multiple in passenger service.
 

northwichcat

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Have Northern at any time stated an intention to create an OBS role?

Does a 'second member of franchise staff' without using the term OBS count or does the fact that could mean a fully trained guard doing what's effectively the same as the current AFC role on one service and then being a full guard on a later service not count?
 

scrapy

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Does a 'second member of franchise staff' without using the term OBS count or does the fact that could mean a fully trained guard doing what's effectively the same as the current AFC role on one service and then being a full guard on a later service not count?
A second member of franchise staff could be a cleaner or security guard.
 

Carlisle

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A second member of franchise staff could be a cleaner or security guard.
Does it matter what else they do? , provided they’ve met the competency standards required for covering the new on board role when required, like northern’s present stand in guards do on Saturdays.
 
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Confused52

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A second member of franchise staff could be a cleaner or security guard.

Not according to the Northern Franchise Agreement committed obligations in Schedule 6.2 , section 18.2 they can't, since it states " … an additional Franchise Employee (that is, in addition to the driver) to be present on such Passenger Service for the purposes of customer service and/or revenue control."
 

Dave1987

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Good try, Dave. Are you intending to stick to that version of events - or do you now feel it needs some adjustment ?

Nope. I know exactly what was said at the start of that dispute and I clearly remember people on this very forum saying that the plan was to have OBS position as an ad-hoc role that could be deployed as deemed appropriate. I remember some people who were guards stating they had received paperwork detailing the original plans for their 'new' role that did not include being rostered work specific services. Funny how people with certain political dogma like to spin things. I seem to remember that Charles Horton and the DFT only changed their position when it was highlighted by the unions and disability groups in the press that their original plans would not work. Only then did they change their tune to say that actually the OBS would be rostered on each service that had a full guard before. And only after the ASLEF action did they agree to a specific set of circumstances by which a train could run without an OBS. So yes I will stick with my version of events and once again ask you to stop accusing others of misinformation and scare mongering when the people you quote are very selective with their version of the facts because it suits the story they wish to spin.
 

Dave1987

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It should be remembered the original Southern and Northern plans are very different. Southern were of the opinion TVMs and ticket barriers were the solution to not having guards - as that meant passengers could still buy tickets and would make it difficult for passengers to travel without, no-one has ever proposed a widespread role out of ticket barriers up here. In fact it was reported Northern bidders (including Govia) told DfT having on board staff was the only viable solution for many Northern routes.

One thing is VERY clear in this whole thing. The Southern thing has had very wide reaching consequences. I'm sure the RMT and ASLEF believe that as soon as they agree to even the slightest bit of DOO extension that the Government will use it as an excuse to beat them with in future for a full and complete roll out of DOO everywhere.
 

Tomnick

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During their dispute Southern addressed this concern by constantly stating they would employ OBS at standard train crew ratios and agreed an ‘exceptional circumstances’ list with ASLEF. The result is Southern getting all the performance and customer service benefits they wanted and the OBS remaining in secure employment. The RMT is still in dispute and has nothing to show in over two years for how they have influenced or affected the outcome except plenty of spare membership cards. Perhaps it is all positive evidence that the TOC rather than the RMT genuinely has the best interests of it’s employees at heart?
I agree that Southern, for now at least, is setting a pretty good example. How long that will go on for, though, is anyone's guess. Hopefully it is a genuinely long term commitment by the DfT.

On Northern, though. They're already chronically short-staffed. What hope is there of maintaining existing train crew establishment figures when they're way off the figure at the moment? "Exceptional circumstances" will help, but I still don't understand how that works in practice - how does the driver, faced with taking a train out on his own in the next few minutes, know that the stated "exceptional circumstances" are genuine?

I don't see why Northern (and indeed Southern) can't get all the performance and customer service benefits they apparently desire without a long-running dispute that was inevitable with their chosen course. The driver releasing the doors would be an acceptable compromise, judging by deals elsewhere. The second member of staff has to check the platform anyway, so there's no 'cost' to them closing the doors themselves (set against a safety benefit, to some extent).

I still don't understand how it's supposed to work when there's a wheelchair user waiting to board, unseen by the driver. Assuming the "OBS" gets to the doors in time to check (otherwise they'll just be left behind), how do they then prevent the driver dispatching the train? The whole thing just seems to introduce unnecessary confusion into the process. If they're there, they should be dispatching it.

I'll be honest, I thought that would be the case on GTR Southern - but thus far there seems no evidence of it being so, and despite being unrecognised by the union (incredibly childish in my view) the role seems to be meeting with some success.
It certainly seems to be the case.

I haven't been following this thread from the start, nor have had the time to read over 197 pages of it. So forgive me for asking, has anyone pointed out that when Northern begin running these new trains upon the Airevalley and Caldervalley a number of them won't have guards, because these brand new trains don't have corridor connections through the cabs?
It certainly seems far from ideal that the new trains don't have corridor connections. Still, it's surely better to have a guard who can at least look after the rear unit, than a situation where the only way that a member of staff can get to the rear unit (to reset passcoms, etc.) is the driver by climbing down into the cess and walking along the outside of the train?
 

Bletchleyite

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It certainly seems far from ideal that the new trains don't have corridor connections. Still, it's surely better to have a guard who can at least look after the rear unit, than a situation where the only way that a member of staff can get to the rear unit (to reset passcoms, etc.) is the driver by climbing down into the cess and walking along the outside of the train?

The lack of corridor connections on these units seems to me to have been an utterly idiotic decision, though an even better one would have been to order 3 and 4-car units so no doubling up would be needed and the benefits of the full width cab could also have been enjoyed.
 

Dave1987

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I'll be honest, I thought that would be the case on GTR Southern - but thus far there seems no evidence of it being so, and despite being unrecognised by the union (incredibly childish in my view) the role seems to be meeting with some success.

How much of the ASLEF deal has had a bearing on that though? They would be immediately in dispute with ASLEF if they went against the agreement.
 

Starmill

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Presumably it means until passenger numbers grow to the extent that more than one unit is needed. Doesn't seem a likely scenario in the current climate.
So for example current 4/5/6 car work will be run with... 2 car DMUs? "until passenger numbers grow"? OK then...
 

furnessvale

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How many 2-car sets are there? I fail to see any sensible application for them.
Out of 55 new units, 25 will be 2 car sets. In another forum I suggested that building such units without corridor connections was, at least, rather silly, but I was roundly told I was wrong. Time will tell.

At least it will provide more jobs for guards/AFCs.
 

scrapy

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Where on earth are they going to be using 2-car units, then? They are not suitable alone for anything other than branch lines.
Agreed. I think the thinking when ordering was that they could be used on routes such as Leeds to Chester/Liverpool or the Lincoln route where they effectively are an extra service with no thinking that demand may increase with extra frequencies but they tick a few boxes for franchise requirements. I think they will definitely prove short sighted a bit like when the last TPE franchise was only allowed to order 3 car 185s to replace the 158s.
 
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