Arriva Rail North DOO

[OxtedSignaller]

It seems Northern management are of the view that as long as the government are compensating them for strikes there is no rush to resolve or even reach a compromise.

Whilst I'm not for DOO there are some places it makes sense on frequent stop, high frequency fully staffed routes. Unfortunately very little of the Northern network is any of this and the crude figure of 50% of service mileage feels like it has been plucked out of thin air with little thought of how it would be implemented or whether it's the best thing for any individual routes.

So far I'm of the understanding that the RMT have offered drivers opening, guards closing and then drivers having full control as long as fully trained guard on board. Both proposals rejected by Northern and the second now retracted by RMT. The RMT have made compromises to the status quo.

So far I'm not aware of any compromises made by Northern or Chris Grayling.

From what I have heard there is growing discontent within the RMT over door controls which shows just how pretty certain people within the union can be. The deals with WMT and GA are being labelled as second rate even though it is guaranteeing a fully trained fully qualified second safety critical person on board (a guard) safeguarding passengers in emergencies and existing hard fought terms and conditions for the guards. This seems to be the way forward but they are bound by this DCO franchise agreement which means the train has to operate with the driver in sole control. Driver open, guard close is not DOO and is not the latest practice technologically speaking.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

To be honest unless the RMT backs down I wont be happy if it is resolved. Reason is simple. If Northern has the power to resolve it at ACAS then why the heck did they wait till we get to ACAS why didnt they do something sooner. I will be angry that its taken this many strike days and this much pain and suffering to get to this point.
Personally I dont think that they can. I hope im right as if I'm wrong all this pain and suffering would have been pointless.

With respect if you are now taking sides then you are involved in the dispute, albeit remotely. As such you have no choice but to accept the "pain and suffering" as a necessary cost of taking a side. Alternatively you could lobby one or both sides detailing your own preferred outcome and see what response you get. ISTM that actually what you really object to is rail workers having the right to strike thereby causing inconvenience to yourself. All of which only highlights the political nature of this dispute and is the consequence of the electorate continuing to prefer right wing Conservative to left wing Labour. How I miss the peaceful days under the Coalition...

 

[Smidster]

On a related note, I assume that there's not going to be a strike on October the 6th, as it'd have been announced by now? Only ask as I'll need to be in Burnley by 2pm-ish!

2 weeks notice is required - I would expect the next round of strikes to be called this week

 

[woodmally]

It seems Northern management are of the view that as long as the government are compensating them for strikes there is no rush to resolve or even reach a compromise.

Whilst I'm not for DOO there are some places it makes sense on frequent stop, high frequency fully staffed routes. Unfortunately very little of the Northern network is any of this and the crude figure of 50% of service mileage feels like it has been plucked out of thin air with little thought of how it would be implemented or whether it's the best thing for any individual routes.

So far I'm of the understanding that the RMT have offered drivers opening, guards closing and then drivers having full control as long as fully trained guard on board. Both proposals rejected by Northern and the second now retracted by RMT. The RMT have made compromises to the status quo.

So far I'm not aware of any compromises made by Northern or Chris Grayling.

How the heck can driver opening guard closing be a compromise. As people have said time and time again its not about who opens and closes the doors its about the second critical member of staff being on the train. Why would Northern accept driver opening guard closing? It would still breach the franchise agreement. Which is the crux of the issue and the fact RMT keep ignoring.

 

[geoffk]

2 weeks notice is required - I would expect the next round of strikes to be called this week

Perhaps, as ACAS is now involved, further strikes can be postponed! And what about a resolution to the ongoing Sunday problems?

 

[yorksrob]

I would urge all Northern passengers to write to their MP's asking why Northern passengers are being subjected to seemingly endless industrial action when agreements have been reached in other areas of the country over the role of the guard.

Neither Northern Rail nor the RMT are acting in our interest. We need to make our voice heard.

 

[Carlisle]

asking why Northern passengers are being subjected to seemingly endless industrial action when agreements have been reached in other areas of the country over the role of the guard.
.

I’d guess almost everyone on here is by now well aware of the reasoning behind the ongoing industrial action,and has probably long since made up their mind whether they prefer to support the position of the union or northern

 

[yorksrob]

I’d guess almost everyone on here is by now well aware of the reasoning behind the ongoing industrial action,and has probably long since made up their mind whether they prefer to support the position of the union or northern

Fascinating though the arguments for and against DOO are, it is unacceptable that Northern passengers should be subjected to extream inconvenience when other areas of the country have resolved the issues. Northern passengers should be agitating for a resolution, not standing by as collateral damage.

 

[ComUtoR]

Northern have to implement DOO or break the franchise agreement and the government wont back down over DOO as they, like me, see its safe and wont be bullied by trade unions.

DOO and DCO are different. The franchise agreement states DCO. No mention of DOO that I could find. Considering the Government set the franchise agreement; it would seem they have already backed down on DOO.

 

[woodmally]

I would urge all Northern passengers to write to their MP's asking why Northern passengers are being subjected to seemingly endless industrial action when agreements have been reached in other areas of the country over the role of the guard.

Neither Northern Rail nor the RMT are acting in our interest. We need to make our voice heard.

I wrote to Jeremy Corbyn about this I was even impartial asking him to intervene and fanned his ego and all I got back was a response by some lackey who didnt read my email saying they are for putting more money into rail. I wrote to my MP Paul Blomfield who wrote back helpfully explaining how this situation had come about and how he sympathised but didnt offer any solution. To be fair he is a decent MP and probably has little power. I wrote to the South Yorkshire Mayor who responded good news the strikes was called off and that they were looking to resolve it. Since I got that back they went back on strike again. I even wrote to the DFT and got no reply. So I have indeed tried. In fact Andy Burnham has tried to intervene and the RMT have ignored him. So what other options do we have?

 

[woodmally]

DOO and DCO are different. The franchise agreement states DCO. No mention of DOO that I could find. Considering the Government set the franchise agreement; it would seem they have already backed down on DOO.

Ok if you are right then Northern can back down and go for DCO. Why arnt they? Do you really think a business like Northern with all these problems they are having would nto back down if they could. I would.

 

[387star]

Mote strikes were threatened recently on southern rail just hot air presumably

I wonder how evac training works without route knowledge or PTS training

 

[61653 HTAFC]

2 weeks notice is required - I would expect the next round of strikes to be called this week

Ah, was thinking it was 4 weeks notice required... fingers crossed for an unlikely resolution then!

 

[yorksrob]

I wrote to Jeremy Corbyn about this I was even impartial asking him to intervene and fanned his ego and all I got back was a response by some lackey who didnt read my email saying they are for putting more money into rail. I wrote to my MP Paul Blomfield who wrote back helpfully explaining how this situation had come about and how he sympathised but didnt offer any solution. To be fair he is a decent MP and probably has little power. I wrote to the South Yorkshire Mayor who responded good news the strikes was called off and that they were looking to resolve it. Since I got that back they went back on strike again. I even wrote to the DFT and got no reply. So I have indeed tried. In fact Andy Burnham has tried to intervene and the RMT have ignored him. So what other options do we have?

The more of us that fill their postbags, the more its likely to feature on the political agenda.

 

[Jonfun]

Mote strikes were threatened recently on southern rail just hot air presumably

I wonder how evac training works without route knowledge or PTS training

PTS is a moot point when you're at the stage of evacuating a train anyway. Route knowledge is only relevant if you're in charge of the evacuation, which my understanding is OBS staff aren't, they work under the driver's instruction in the same way on a Guarded train the catering and revenue staff who are evacuation trained work to the Guard's instruction.

 

[DaveB10780]

I’d guess almost everyone on here is by now well aware of the reasoning behind the ongoing industrial action,and has probably long since made up their mind whether they prefer to support the position of the union or northern

I just want a train service, totally fed up with everybody.

 

[Robertj21a]

Mote strikes were threatened recently on southern rail just hot air presumably

I wonder how evac training works without route knowledge or PTS training

What has been the arrangement on the 12-car Thameslinks that run DOO ?. Surely, there's only the driver to do everything (let alone also having any form of 'helper').

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The more of us that fill their postbags, the more its likely to feature on the political agenda.

Don't think that'll make the slightest bit of difference. We are so far from the next election that most MPs will happily ignore anyone even suggesting the slightest bit of dissatisfaction with how things are being handled. At the height of the Southern dispute commuters organised some very well supported demonstrations but they were all but ignored. I suspect that only "in-your-face" representations to Grayling himself will have any impact. Good luck getting that close to a serving minister!

 

[yorksrob]

Don't think that'll make the slightest bit of difference. We are so far from the next election that most MPs will happily ignore anyone even suggesting the slightest bit of dissatisfaction with how things are being handled. At the height of the Southern dispute commuters organised some very well supported demonstrations but they were all but ignored. I suspect that only "in-your-face" representations to Grayling himself will have any impact. Good luck getting that close to a serving minister!

There is nothing else for us to try. But that doesn't mean that Northern passengers should be passive viewers, as if watching a game of tennis.

 

[a_c_skinner]

It isn't tennis, this is watching dinosaurs fighting to the death, or at least until on is too injured to fight on. This is dinosaur IR, strikes always are, a sign of failure on both sides, everyone loses. I doubt any of us have any action we can take that would speed resolution.

 

[njamescouk]

so far as I can see most passengers are in favour of having a guard, or are apathetic. certainly no mass movement of people saying the guards must go.

rhetorical question coming up: so why are northern fighting their staff rather than running a railway?

 

[yorksrob]

The only thing we can do is to keep it at the top of the political agenda. Keep the dispute in the public eye, rather than allow it to be forgotten about.

 

[furnessvale]

so far as I can see most passengers are in favour of having a guard, or are apathetic. certainly no mass movement of people saying the guards must go.

rhetorical question coming up: so why are northern fighting their staff rather than running a railway?

At the risk of repeating things said earlier in the thread, you will probably find most passengers are in favour of a second member of staff on the train who issues tickets etc and sees to passengers welfare.

They are not so keen on that second member of staff spending all his time in the back cab opening and closing doors. They are even less happy when that second member of staff DOES emerge from the back cab only to find that door opening is delayed for a minute at each station as he fights his way back to the door controls.

 

[Carlisle]

Northern passengers should be subjected to extream inconvenience when other areas of the country have resolved the issues.

Other areas (unless historically DOO) haven’t truly resolved these issues though, they’re either still in dispute or for pragmatic reasons merely opted to postpone any changes until some unknown future date

 

[yorksrob]

Other areas (unless historically DOO) haven’t truly resolved the issues though, they’re either still in dispute or have for pragmatic reasons merely opted to postpone any changes

Whatever it is, they're not being subjected to hugely damaging industrial action though.

 

[DaveB10780]

At the risk of repeating things said earlier in the thread, you will probably find most passengers are in favour of a second member of staff on the train who issues tickets etc and sees to passengers welfare.

They are not so keen on that second member of staff spending all his time in the back cab opening and closing doors. They are even less happy when that second member of staff DOES emerge from the back cab only to find that door opening is delayed for a minute at each station as he fights his way back to the door controls.

Sums it up perfectly, I am sure that is all most of us passengers want.

 

[Killingworth]

At the risk of repeating things said earlier in the thread, you will probably find most passengers are in favour of a second member of staff on the train who issues tickets etc and sees to passengers welfare.

They are not so keen on that second member of staff spending all his time in the back cab opening and closing doors. They are even less happy when that second member of staff DOES emerge from the back cab only to find that door opening is delayed for a minute at each station as he fights his way back to the door controls.

I'd only disagree with one word, probably. I haven't met any passenger who'd disagree with furnessvale's statement

 

[CN75]

I would urge all Northern passengers to write to their MP's asking why Northern passengers are being subjected to seemingly endless industrial action when agreements have been reached in other areas of the country over the role of the guard.

Neither Northern Rail nor the RMT are acting in our interest. We need to make our voice heard.

Northern could say they are acting in passenger interests. Some MPs might point at Southern rail, which now works well and where there is no industrial action.

 

[yorksrob]

Northern could say they are acting in passenger interests. Some MPs might point at Southern rail, which now works well and where there is no industrial action.

Southern Rail is working because I assume that some sort of agreement has been reached. We've been going along like this for over a year now with no agreement in sight. That is not in passengers interests.

 

[74A]

Southern Rail is working because I assume that some sort of agreement has been reached. We've been going along like this for over a year now with no agreement in sight. That is not in passengers interests.

No there has been no agreement. Southern implemented the changes as they said they would. There is now so little guarded operation that is looks like RMT have just not bothered to take action as the disruption would be minimal. RMT refuse to reach agreement as that would be conceding the principle of DOO. IIRC a Southern guard member did post on here a while ago they had not had a pay increase for 2 years as a result.