My thoughts on the ride quality of Mk3 coaches

[_toommm_]

The HSTs are coming...deal with it!

I've had a HST inadvertently spill my drink onto my laptop, leaving me £1000 out of pocket. The rise quality, especially at full 125mph running, isn't as good as a modern MU like a 390 or a 222. This problem has never occurred on either of aforementioned trains, and the 390 even tilts!

 

[Journeyman]

I've had a HST inadvertently spill my drink onto my laptop, leaving me £1000 out of pocket. The rise quality, especially at full 125mph running, isn't as good as a modern MU like a 390 or a 222. This problem has never occurred on either of aforementioned trains, and the 390 even tilts!

I wish all the HST fanboys would acknowledge this - the ride in a Mark 3 is not actually all that special. After getting coffee spilled all over my table repeatedly, I moved to another seat in the next coach, which was only marginally better, and still quite unsatisfactory (complete with squeaks and rattles). I'm not booking on HSTs on the ECML again, all the other alternatives are better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wish all the HST fanboys would acknowledge this - the ride in a Mark 3 is not actually all that special.

Indeed not - there is a lot of side to side sway, as well as an almighty bang and visible distortion when passed by another one. Though that was more of an issue at 110/125mph - at the much slower speeds they'll run at on ScotRail I doubt it will be a major issue.

 

[47271]

I wish all the HST fanboys would acknowledge this - the ride in a Mark 3 is not actually all that special. After getting coffee spilled all over my table repeatedly, I moved to another seat in the next coach, which was only marginally better, and still quite unsatisfactory (complete with squeaks and rattles). I'm not booking on HSTs on the ECML again, all the other alternatives are better.

What you described is a long established problem on East Coast HSTs, particularly on the bends around Cockburnspath and Grantshouse. Many a time I've seen a coffee cup whizz across the table to the sound of the suspension hitting its limits and we've come close to a spillage. Despite what some might some say, the electric sets don't suffer from this to any like the same extent. So the mk3s are old and unsuited to daily 125mph operation, we get it.

Meanwhile, on Scotrail, the sets will be lucky to get much abve 80 on most routes. Never has my cup whizzed at that speed on any route.

It may be that some on this thread are over excited by the prospect of elderly HSTs providing Scotrail intercity services. But there are also some who are just as overexcited at finding fault, and getting upset about an LNER set rough riding at top speed, and translating that to future Scotrail use, very much fits into that category.

 

[_toommm_]

I wish all the HST fanboys would acknowledge this - the ride in a Mark 3 is not actually all that special. After getting coffee spilled all over my table repeatedly, I moved to another seat in the next coach, which was only marginally better, and still quite unsatisfactory (complete with squeaks and rattles). I'm not booking on HSTs on the ECML again, all the other alternatives are better.

I am a HST fanboy too, but it doesn't distract from the fact that the ride can be hit and miss, especially on the ECML

 

[Northhighland]

I wish all the HST fanboys would acknowledge this - the ride in a Mark 3 is not actually all that special. After getting coffee spilled all over my table repeatedly, I moved to another seat in the next coach, which was only marginally better, and still quite unsatisfactory (complete with squeaks and rattles). I'm not booking on HSTs on the ECML again, all the other alternatives are better.

And therein lies the lesson. You have a choice of services. Live in Inverness you don't. So putting the rolling stock aside I just want my 3 hour journey each way, 6 hours each time I go, to include a seat all the way. I don't have a choice of services. So while I am happy for you that you can choose spare a thought for those that cant. HST might not be perfect but is a whole lot better than the service we currently have.

 

[Journeyman]

And therein lies the lesson. You have a choice of services. Live in Inverness you don't. So putting the rolling stock aside I just want my 3 hour journey each way, 6 hours each time I go, to include a seat all the way. I don't have a choice of services. So while I am happy for you that you can choose spare a thought for those that cant. HST might not be perfect but is a whole lot better than the service we currently have.

Well, I appreciate that, and I know the extra capacity is sorely needed, but I've never had a Class 170 repeatedly catapult coffee into the air.

 

[BRX]

It would be interesting to know when the 125mph run along the ECML in a 170 was done in order to demonstrate the non catapulted coffee.

 

[Journeyman]

It would be interesting to know when the 125mph run along the ECML in a 170 was done in order to demonstrate the non catapulted coffee.

Oh, come on. It's fairly obvious what point I was making. I've never had coffee catapulted in the air by any other rolling stock at any speed. There's no excuse for a train to ride that badly. The speed it's running at is irrelevant - if it's designed to travel at 125mph, the ride should still be acceptable at that speed, and on all other rolling stock that travels that fast, it is.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What you described is a long established problem on East Coast HSTs, particularly on the bends around Cockburnspath and Grantshouse. Many a time I've seen a coffee cup whizz across the table to the sound of the suspension hitting its limits and we've come close to a spillage. Despite what some might some say, the electric sets don't suffer from this to any like the same extent. So the mk3s are old and unsuited to daily 125mph operation, we get it.

Meanwhile, on Scotrail, the sets will be lucky to get much abve 80 on most routes. Never has my cup whizzed at that speed on any route.

It may be that some on this thread are over excited by the prospect of elderly HSTs providing Scotrail intercity services. But there are also some who are just as overexcited at finding fault, and getting upset about an LNER set rough riding at top speed, and translating that to future Scotrail use, very much fits into that category.

Indeed. The Mk4 sets suffer from this even on straight track!

 

[cactustwirly]

I've had a HST inadvertently spill my drink onto my laptop, leaving me £1000 out of pocket. The rise quality, especially at full 125mph running, isn't as good as a modern MU like a 390 or a 222. This problem has never occurred on either of aforementioned trains, and the 390 even tilts!

Sorry but the ride quality on the 222s is absolutely appalling!
The ride on the HSTs is very good, but it really depends on the set, and how well maintained it is.
The ride has always been a bit 'nervous' (but not nearly as bad as the 800s), however the suspension is very good at absorbing bumps like junctions etc.

Lesson 1, don't have your coffee next to your laptop when on a train.

 

[_toommm_]

Sorry but the ride quality on the 222s is absolutely appalling!
The ride on the HSTs is very good, but it really depends on the set, and how well maintained it is.
The ride has always been a bit 'nervous' (but not nearly as bad as the 800s), however the suspension is very good at absorbing bumps like junctions etc.

Lesson 1, don't have your coffee next to your laptop when on a train.

I will admit it was my fault and would never blame (what was) VTEC for it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reading the most recent Modern Railways this morning there was a note about cheap dampers having been used on the ECML Mk3s - could this make them worse than the GWR ones?

 

[cactustwirly]

I will admit it was my fault and would never blame (what was) VTEC for it!

Don't ever try it on the MML, there are a lot of tight curves, especially coming through Wellingborough, your drink will almost certainly get spilled!
I had a 222 eject my bag from the overhead rack coming though there!

 

[_toommm_]

Don't ever try it on the MML, there are a lot of tight curves, especially coming through Wellingborough, your drink will almost certainly get spilled!
I had a 222 eject my bag from the overhead rack coming though there!

Interestingly it wasn't even on a corner that mine spilt! It was somewhere on the (what I presume) 125mph straights between Edinburgh and Newcastle

 

[Journeyman]

Don't ever try it on the MML, there are a lot of tight curves, especially coming through Wellingborough, your drink will almost certainly get spilled!
I had a 222 eject my bag from the overhead rack coming though there!

I did Kettering to London on a 222 earlier this week and found it fine, but yes, the track curvature is pretty vicious in a lot of places. What was APT-E's ride like on them, I wonder?

 

[cactustwirly]

I did Kettering to London on a 222 earlier this week and found it fine, but yes, the track curvature is pretty vicious in a lot of places. What was APT-E's ride like on them, I wonder?

I do partly blame the ridiculously small overhead luggage racks on the 222s, hence I now avoid them and choose HSTs for the superior everything (including better luggage provision)

 

[Journeyman]

I do partly blame the ridiculously small overhead luggage racks on the 222s, hence I now avoid them and choose HSTs for the superior everything (including better luggage provision)

Agreed, the racks on the 222 are far too small, but in just about every other respect, I consider it to be a far better train than the HST - the seat design is particularly good, way better than the IC70s in the EMT HSTs.

 

[chubs]

Cups and other times vibrate and jump all over the place on GA mk3's too.

You cant keep old junk going forever, which is why most operators are sending them off to the razor blade factory in the near future.

 

[LowLevel]

I think you'll find in the last few years some operators have increased the spacing between bogie exams on their HSTs to save money in addition.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

WCML Mk3s (LHCS) were quite vicious on the tight curving sections at 110mph where they were at maximum cant deficiency (Berkhamsted, Wolverton, Weedon etc).
The few HSTs on the route (from the GW pool) were also given to heavy bouncing at times, even on straight-ish track.
Today's 390s (particularly) and 221s are much smoother in comparison, even at 125mph.
Much of the route was relaid and upgraded during WCRM, of course, since the Mk3 days.
We'll have to see how the ex-ECML Mk4s behave when GNWR starts services with them on the WCML at 110mph.

 

[43096]

I think you'll find in the last few years some operators have increased the spacing between bogie exams on their HSTs to save money in addition.

New Westinghouse/Knorr Bremse WSP kit has enabled that - a case of investing to make long-term gains.

 

[Esker-pades]

My ECML experience is broadly on 91s, which tend to start with an almighty jolt as the locomotive either shunts or pulls the whole train. One loco at each end is more comfortable than a single yank/shove.

 

[DarloRich]

I have traveled on HST all over the country almost since new. Never lost a cup of tea. Must be lucky. However we do seem to have the most unlucky people in the world on this board!

You cant keep old junk going forever, which is why most operators are sending them off to the razor blade factory in the near future.

if only the new junk offered an environment as comfortable as the one it replaces. New trains are great. I just wish they thought at all about the people who have to travel in them!

the ride in a Mark 3 is not actually all that special

I will take 5 hours on an uncomfortable HST over 5 hours on a wonderful new, fantastic, "Super" Voyager.

 

[Bletchleyite]

if only the new junk offered an environment as comfortable as the one it replaces. New trains are great. I just wish they thought at all about the people who have to travel in them!

That does vary. I doubt there are very many who would say that a Class 350 (even /2) isn't an improvement over an unrefurbished Class 321.

 

[yorksrob]

I've never had a drink fall over on a mk3 due to the ride.

I have, however had a can of beer jettison itself off a seatback table on a mk4 at speed.

As a consequence, I'm wary of all seat back tables when it comes to liquids, and try and put a serviette down for a cup on most trains.

That aside, as an HST fanboy, I find they generally swoosh along perfectly satisfactorily.

 

[Journeyman]

I will take 5 hours on an uncomfortable HST over 5 hours on a wonderful new, fantastic, "Super" Voyager.

I generally find that the problem with Voyagers is not the train itself, but CrossCountry's chronic overcrowding problem. Fix that, and I'd say the Voyager is a good train; no train is much fun when you're wedged in like sardines.

 

[DarloRich]

That does vary. I doubt there are very many who would say that a Class 350 (even /2) isn't an improvement over an unrefurbished Class 321.

Agreed - however that is the exception.

I generally find that the problem with Voyagers is not the train itself, but CrossCountry's chronic overcrowding problem. Fix that, and I'd say the Voyager is a good train; no train is much fun when you're wedged in like sardines.

Agreed - that is part of the problem. It might even be a large part of the problem but the well versed vibration, crappy seats, dingy interior and dodgy smells all play a part.

 

[xc170]

The only train that has ever spilt a drink of mine was an XC HST, my (just opened) Pepsi can jumped off the table soaked my legs, seat and the seat next to me!

 

[Bletchleyite]

crappy seats, dingy interior

Matter of opinion on both of those. I like the seats, and the subdued, warm lighting and colour scheme is to me, together with the near-identical Pendolino, one of the nicest on the network.