• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,765
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Ah, yes, the big bridge that crosses Manchester Airport. Victoria to Exchange I'd need to look on an old map to make sense, but the idea was there, more as a local tradition than a suggestion.

I think an enclosed bridge would be misused, that happened to almost all of the ones built in the 1970s and 1980s, leading to them being removed.

I'd go for an open air walkway styled like London's "bouncy bridge" or similar, with plenty of decorative and also practical lighting so it doesn't feel like a dingy crime-ridden dive in the evening. It might even be worth considering putting it inside the ticket barriers to reduce misuse - a TVM could be provided at the Deansgate end and the barriers remotely monitored.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
19,372
Location
Yorkshire
If Deansgate station was in any city other than Manchester (for example if there'd been a similar cramped 2-platform station in the Kirkgate markets/city bus station area of Leeds) it'd have closed decades ago, no matter how fancy the buildings were. Though there'd no doubt now be a campaign to reopen it too!
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,821
If Deansgate station was in any city other than Manchester (for example if there'd been a similar cramped 2-platform station in the Kirkgate markets/city bus station area of Leeds) it'd have closed decades ago, no matter how fancy the buildings were. Though there'd no doubt now be a campaign to reopen it too!

It wouldn't surprise me as the links with the metrolink save passengers a good 20 odd minutes from their journey without having to go into picc
 

Nymanic

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2014
Messages
147
Location
Manchester
Deansgate is indeed useful for Metrolink connections - for those heading towards south Manchester, a walk from Oxford Road can be unappealing, and a change at Piccadilly can add half an hour to your journey time. Nevertheless, Deansgate surely doesn't have much of a future, being hemmed in between a busy Oxford Road and equally busy junction, with no prospect of platform extensions or service increases.

Although a little pie-in-the-sky, I wouldn't mind seeing Deansgate closed, alongside platform extensions westwards at Oxford Road (even the last known plans for Oxford Road envisage platforms around 200m in length, which wouldn't accommodate longer formations such as 2x802/397 or a full-length Pendolino).

If they're extended far enough to the west, perhaps a separate western station entrance could be justified, as well as a viaduct-level walkway to create a traffic-free pedestrian route between the station and Deansgate Metrolink (although this may measure in at 300m or more, a bit of a trek). 4-tracking west of Oxford Road would also be nice, but even after demolishing Deansgate it might still be physically impossible.

Now where did I plant all those money trees...?
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
19,372
Location
Yorkshire
I think an enclosed bridge would be misused, that happened to almost all of the ones built in the 1970s and 1980s, leading to them being removed.

I'd go for an open air walkway styled like London's "bouncy bridge" or similar, with plenty of decorative and also practical lighting so it doesn't feel like a dingy crime-ridden dive in the evening. It might even be worth considering putting it inside the ticket barriers to reduce misuse - a TVM could be provided at the Deansgate end and the barriers remotely monitored.
An open air walkway in Manchester... nope, can't see any problems there! :lol:
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,609
Location
Torbay
An open air walkway in Manchester... nope, can't see any problems there! :lol:
Perhaps not fully enclosed, but definitely with a roof! Ideally with a travolator as well but clearly that increases width required, weight and expense. Maybe a small single peoplemover car instead mainly aimed at those less mobile to supplement the walking route. At roughly platform/track level a simple light walkway might be cantilevered out from the rail viaduct or perhaps the roadspace could be rearranged below to accommodate a line of support columns, maybe losing a traffic or parking lane. At the walkway's western end it might be squeezed behind the the new skyscraper next to the railway, perhaps incorporating part of the rear part of the building on one or two floors. Beyond that a pedestrian bridge might be thrown across Whitworth Street W to the east end of the Metrolink station. It could be erected directly above Cameron Street to avoid any changes to the street frontage of the new skyscraper, and access down to street level could be on the north side of the road.

111003/FO/2016/C1 | Demolition of existing building at 10 - 12 Whitworth Street West, and redevelopment of the site for a new 35 storey residential building (Use Class C3) comprising 327 apartments, with associated residents' services, facilities and communal spaces: servicing, highways, public realm and associated works. Extract from east elevation drawing:

manchester2.jpg
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,609
Location
Torbay
What current use has the building at 10-12 Whitworth Street West stated in the above posting?
The most recent Google Streetview imagery, from 09/2017, shows the building already demolished. I don't know whether new construction has started already.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,609
Location
Torbay
Looking down from the top of the Beetham on the new building (yellow) and the walkway (black/grey) snaking around/through it and continuing along the side of the rail viaduct towards Oxford Road:
deansgate.jpg

The walkway would have to pass through the upper floors of the City Road Inn building next to the railway, but wouldn't damage its more important features:
deansgate3.jpg
 

158756

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2014
Messages
1,629
The most recent Google Streetview imagery, from 09/2017, shows the building already demolished. I don't know whether new construction has started already.

No sign of anything being built any time soon. The developer was reportedly for sale earlier this year. Of course any buyer could get things moving far quicker than any scheme involving the railway.
 

Altfish

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2014
Messages
1,065
Location
Altrincham
No sign of anything being built any time soon. The developer was reportedly for sale earlier this year. Of course any buyer could get things moving far quicker than any scheme involving the railway.
There is another building appearing slightly further west down Whitworth St West, in fact a road has been closed to facilitate it.
The photos also don't show the office block/flats appearing between the canal and the tram lines.

I do think this travellator/walkway is a bonkers idea, totally impractical. If Deansgate is to close there must be a more practical solution, even some sort of pod like they have at Heathrow.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,609
Location
Torbay
There is another building appearing slightly further west down Whitworth St West, in fact a road has been closed to facilitate it.
The photos also don't show the office block/flats appearing between the canal and the tram lines.

I do think this travellator/walkway is a bonkers idea, totally impractical. If Deansgate is to close there must be a more practical solution, even some sort of pod like they have at Heathrow.

What's totally bonkers about it? Its a walkway, about 400m, covered, avoids crossing roads on the level and might be part of Oxford Road station's paid area as suggested by someone upthread (for security). Should take no more than 5 minutes to walk it. It could incorporate a small pod shuttle on one side as well to cater for those who can't walk the distance but for most people it's probably not worth waiting for a pod and a walk would be just as quick. Double the distance and an APM would become preferable as walk time would be significantly longer, but some walking interchanges on London Underground are of a similar length through subterranean passageways and such distances are commonplace at airports. I like the idea of travelators but recognise they are large, heavy, maintenance and energy intensive, but they have the advantage of no waiting unlike a pod where the distance, speed, loading time and number of pods determines a frequency which implies a wait, especially with small pods and large pulse loads of peak time rail traffic. If for many normal fitness passengers waiting time plus journey time approaches the walk time then most I guess will walk anyway which means lower overall pod capacity would be required, only sufficient to deal with the typical volumes of persons with reduced mobility. A travelator might trim a further minute or two from the walk time, guaranteed, every time, assuming it's working! Manchester has considered walkways and travelators since the Picc-Vicc scheme proposals in the 1970s so its hardly groundbreaking, but I fully accept the particular idea to place it next to the rail viaduct might prove totally impractical under more detailed investigation, due to factors I am not aware of. That other building between canal and Metrolink is shown under construction in later Streetview images and appears not to block my pedestrian footbridge over Whitworth St W.
 

Altfish

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2014
Messages
1,065
Location
Altrincham
What's totally bonkers about it? Its a walkway, about 400m, covered, avoids crossing roads on the level and might be part of Oxford Road station's paid area as suggested by someone upthread (for security). Should take no more than 5 minutes to walk it. It could incorporate a small pod shuttle on one side as well to cater for those who can't walk the distance but for most people it's probably not worth waiting for a pod and a walk would be just as quick. Double the distance and an APM would become preferable as walk time would be significantly longer, but some walking interchanges on London Underground are of a similar length through subterranean passageways and such distances are commonplace at airports. I like the idea of travelators but recognise they are large, heavy, maintenance and energy intensive, but they have the advantage of no waiting unlike a pod where the distance, speed, loading time and number of pods determines a frequency which implies a wait, especially with small pods and large pulse loads of peak time rail traffic. If for many normal fitness passengers waiting time plus journey time approaches the walk time then most I guess will walk anyway which means lower overall pod capacity would be required, only sufficient to deal with the typical volumes of persons with reduced mobility. A travelator might trim a further minute or two from the walk time, guaranteed, every time, assuming it's working! Manchester has considered walkways and travelators since the Picc-Vicc scheme proposals in the 1970s so its hardly groundbreaking, but I fully accept the particular idea to place it next to the rail viaduct might prove totally impractical under more detailed investigation, due to factors I am not aware of. That other building between canal and Metrolink is shown under construction in later Streetview images and appears not to block my pedestrian footbridge over Whitworth St W.
It is longer than 400m, nearer 600m maybe more depending on the start/finish position. Most walkways are inside, like the one at Piccadilly and the ones at the airport. If you built one similar to the ones to the Airport Station it would be a monstrosity and I'd be surprised if you would get planning for it in the city centre.
I just think it is a pie in the sky solution for problem that there must be better solutions for. What about a fleet of Rickshaws!! A new tram line down Oxford Road to St Peter's Square to connect with the existing trams, at least that wouldn't have just one purpose and would be useful to the wider population..
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
19,372
Location
Yorkshire
It is longer than 400m, nearer 600m maybe more depending on the start/finish position. Most walkways are inside, like the one at Piccadilly and the ones at the airport. If you built one similar to the ones to the Airport Station it would be a monstrosity and I'd be surprised if you would get planning for it in the city centre.
I just think it is a pie in the sky solution for problem that there must be better solutions for. What about a fleet of Rickshaws!! A new tram line down Oxford Road to St Peter's Square to connect with the existing trams, at least that wouldn't have just one purpose and would be useful to the wider population..
Trams down Oxford Road would've been done decades ago if Manchester was in Germany or the Netherlands, or even Czechia. As it is, I'm not sure which would be harder: getting planning permission for a "Sky-bridge" or getting round the objections of the big bus companies for a tramway down the Oxford Road corridor!
 

B&I

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2017
Messages
2,484
Trams down Oxford Road would've been done decades ago if Manchester was in Germany or the Netherlands, or even Czechia. As it is, I'm not sure which would be harder: getting planning permission for a "Sky-bridge" or getting round the objections of the big bus companies for a tramway down the Oxford Road corridor!


Do I remember correctly that Oxford Road is, or at one point was, the most heavily used bus route in Europe ? Still, why install a street tramway through an area
of high demand when you can rip out a heavy rail line instead ?
 

PR1Berske

Established Member
Joined
27 Jul 2010
Messages
3,025
Looking down from the top of the Beetham on the new building (yellow) and the walkway (black/grey) snaking around/through it and continuing along the side of the rail viaduct towards Oxford Road:
View attachment 51716

The walkway would have to pass through the upper floors of the City Road Inn building next to the railway, but wouldn't damage its more important features:
View attachment 51717
Think we're entering the domain of the bonkers if this is being suggested!
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
19,372
Location
Yorkshire
Do I remember correctly that Oxford Road is, or at one point was, the most heavily used bus route in Europe ? Still, why install a street tramway through an area
of high demand when you can rip out a heavy rail line instead ?
It's often said to be, though I've no idea of the veracity of that "fact". As for the second point, seems to be another British Disease...
 

B&I

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2017
Messages
2,484
It is longer than 400m, nearer 600m maybe more depending on the start/finish position. Most walkways are inside, like the one at Piccadilly and the ones at the airport. If you built one similar to the ones to the Airport Station it would be a monstrosity and I'd be surprised if you would get planning for it in the city centre.
I just think it is a pie in the sky solution for problem that there must be better solutions for. What about a fleet of Rickshaws!! A new tram line down Oxford Road to St Peter's Square to connect with the existing trams, at least that wouldn't have just one purpose and would be useful to the wider population..


A monstrosity ? I'm sure a properly-designed footbridge (which is really what we are talking about) from the (new) western end of Oxford Rd to Deansgate tram will have little effect on the aesthetics of that area. In fact, being a monstrosity would probably help it fit better into present-day Manchester
 

Altfish

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2014
Messages
1,065
Location
Altrincham
A monstrosity ? I'm sure a properly-designed footbridge (which is really what we are talking about) from the (new) western end of Oxford Rd to Deansgate tram will have little effect on the aesthetics of that area. In fact, being a monstrosity would probably help it fit better into present-day Manchester
I'm sat in the area now, in a lovely brick building just watching the GBFR class 66 pass over the brick viaduct. It is fine, some bad buildings but mostly ok.
 

bbrez

Member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
32
If Deansgate station was in any city other than Manchester (for example if there'd been a similar cramped 2-platform station in the Kirkgate markets/city bus station area of Leeds) it'd have closed decades ago, no matter how fancy the buildings were. Though there'd no doubt now be a campaign to reopen it too!

When I worked in Castlefield, Deansgate was a saviour. Always busy in peak times.

Although, if Oxford Road ever gets upgraded, with extended platforms and a new exit, then Deansgate is pretty pointless.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,765
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Do I remember correctly that Oxford Road is, or at one point was, the most heavily used bus route in Europe ? Still, why install a street tramway through an area
of high demand when you can rip out a heavy rail line instead ?

I believe it's the busiest corridor. The busiest single numbered route is the very similar MetroBus 5 in Hamburg.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
19,372
Location
Yorkshire
I'm not clear what removing heavy rail lines has to do with Oxford Road (the road, not the station)?
It wasn't me that made that point, but I think that poster was referring to Metrolink expansion taking over existing heavy rail lines (Oldham loop) rather than serving previously untapped (by rail) areas such as the Oxford Road corridor. Even the Airport and East Didsbury lines, despite being a largely new alignment (using some old railway though) both terminate in places already served by heavy rail.

Indeed the only relevance to the topic was whether a tram to Oxford Road (station) and beyond would compensate for the loss of modal interchange at Deansgate. As the idea of closing Deansgate is intrinsically linked to the P15/16 project, it's not off-topic in my opinion.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,821
Do I remember correctly that Oxford Road is, or at one point was, the most heavily used bus route in Europe ? Still, why install a street tramway through an area
of high demand when you can rip out a heavy rail line instead ?

Has anyone suggested ripping out a heavy rail line or merely closing a station?
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,609
Location
Torbay
It wasn't me that made that point, but I think that poster was referring to Metrolink expansion taking over existing heavy rail lines (Oldham loop) rather than serving previously untapped (by rail) areas such as the Oxford Road corridor. Even the Airport and East Didsbury lines, despite being a largely new alignment (using some old railway though) both terminate in places already served by heavy rail.

Indeed the only relevance to the topic was whether a tram to Oxford Road (station) and beyond would compensate for the loss of modal interchange at Deansgate. As the idea of closing Deansgate is intrinsically linked to the P15/16 project, it's not off-topic in my opinion.

Where trains terminate, particularly local light rail services, is only partly relevant as most of their demand is generated by intermediate stops. A country end terminal at a heavy rail station can also also help encourage peripheral interchange to take some load from the city centre by people who don't actually need to go there. For example, very few people will travel between the airport and the city centre by tram, although it may be a particularly attractive low cost option for someone who already has a Metrolink period ticket for other purposes that covers such an occasional journey.

Oxford Road carries a bewildering array of bus services operated by a myriad of operators serving a panoply of destinations. In the future with regional coordination, sorting out the inner segment of this high density corridor might be possible by running street trams interchanging with a wide feeder bus network further out, but that was not possible when Metrolink was first being developed or more recently being extended.

The problem with an additional tram line (whereever it goes elsewhere) used to transfer between Oxford Rd Heavy rail and St Peters Square for the west and south of Manchester is that would add considerably to journey time with an extra interchange penalty on journey time. Not as much as going via Piccadilly clearly, but additional time nonetheless. Even without a dedicated walkway, it's likely that a walk from Oxford road HR and Metrolink at Deans gate would be quicker.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,765
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Oxford Road carries a bewildering array of bus services operated by a myriad of operators serving a panoply of destinations. In the future with regional coordination, sorting out the inner segment of this high density corridor might be possible by running street trams interchanging with a wide feeder bus network further out, but that was not possible when Metrolink was first being developed or more recently being extended.

A first stage would be to reduce the number of bus routes going that way to two - one (42) to Parrs Wood (possibly with extensions to Stockport) and one (43) towards West Didsbury, using multi-door articulated buses, open boarding and TfL style touch-in (and out, if flat fare isn't viable) contactless payment which has effectively replaced the need for off bus ticketing (there won't be a single student who doesn't have a CPC or Android/Apple Pay). If that's really successful - and I think it would be - the next stage might be to turn the bendybuses into trams.

It's a route I'd expect to see some significant changes on if the franchising project does go ahead.
 

Altfish

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2014
Messages
1,065
Location
Altrincham
For example, very few people will travel between the airport and the city centre by tram, although it may be a particularly attractive low cost option for someone who already has a Metrolink period ticket for other purposes that covers such an occasional journey.
I disagree; if you are going to an Exhibition at Manchester Central, staying at the Midland Hotel, going to MoSI, etc., etc. it is often quicker and easier to catch the tram from the Airport.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,765
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I disagree; if you are going to an Exhibition at Manchester Central, staying at the Midland Hotel, going to MoSI, etc., etc. it is often quicker and easier to catch the tram from the Airport.

There's also that to some people a simple all-stations city tram network is more transparent and less confusing than a bewildering array of regional expresses with a load of different ticketing permutations. I'd venture that the vast majority of British people arriving at, say, Berlin Schoenefeld, just take the S-Bahn rather than pratting about working out which RegionalExpresse stop where.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if more people flying *to* Manchester used Metrolink, while the rail service is more popular with those flying *from* Manchester and travelling from the city and its hinterland.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top