Arriva Rail North DOO

[Moonshot]

Given some of the previous comments in this forum about the opprobrium those viewed as breaking a strike suffer, I think staff would have to be very sure they had a overwhelming majority before turning up for work on a strike day. Far safer to wait for an official end to the strike.

Absolutely bang on the mark, so a second vote would simply rubber stamp that.

 

[Moonshot]

As a former trades union national committee member, not rail related, I've seen this sort of situation. A lot is bluff and counter bluff. In some ways it is simple, but it's not.

The union won't want another ballot in case it gives a majority to return to normal working. Neither does it want to see a weakening of the previous vote. On the other hand the employer is aware that a new vote might actually result in a stonger vote for continued action, and one validated by being up to date.

In some areas there will be strongly held pockets in favour of abandoning strikes. They may be counterbalanced, maybe overwhelmingly, by bigger groups eleswhere strongly in favour of carrying on. It just needs one manager somewhere to make a rash decision to unite the feelings of waverers in favour of striking. Of course a rash union action can send it the other way. Anything can happen in the time from declaring a new ballot to the date it is completed

I recall a long running dispute, banning overtime and working to rule. We tried to inconvenience customers as little as possible, and mostly did - except in a few highly militant areas. The union won, probably on the backs of those militants in a very few places. A few years later my job had been slowly deskilled, I was offered early retirement and my successor was paid less than 2/3 my salary. The job no longer exists - but we won! Or did we?

I'd love to get back into the details of the dispute, but at present both sides are losing.

Ultimately passengers are the ones justifying the jobs. Hack them off enough and they'll find other ways to travel, or stop travelling. Do we really need railways at all?

Good post. There are a number of militants who seem to take great delight in causing misery for the passengers. These tend to be long termers who have been around a long time and are used to having a cushy job.

 

[virgintrain1]

When people say DOO happens without issue in the South East so why not elsewhere. I think there are fundamental issues with comparing TOCS. Although I still consider DOO less safe in the SE it is highly populated area with a lot of rail traffic and stations. E.g. in am emergency I would think assistance from Network Rail and BTP would not take that long to arrive and the majority of passengers on busy DOO service are commuters which in the whole seem to be able to use the rail system on their own.

However in a rural area with mainly unstaffed stations with a train full of leisure passenger I think is a very different kettle of fish.

Can DOO supporters please just try and answer my concerns:

I have been involved in 3 fatalities in which meant the train was significantly disrupted. The drivers were very shaken up and we the train crew dealt with a full train load of disrupted passengers, giving info taking details and liaising with control. 1 involved a lot of PTS and the guard was required to check the train and track. How is a single driver meant to provide this? As some drivers would be almost incapacitated by an incident like this are passengers left in the dark?

I have removed drunk and violent passengers assisted passengers at unstaffed/short-staffed stations. Had passengers have metal health related breakdowns ect.

How does the driver keep exit doors (the emergency exits!) and aisles clear of obstructions bikes and pushchairs and luggage ect.

During temporary block workings the driver has a enough to worry about rather than passengers connections ect due to our 4 hour delay. We have seen in the news where passengers have has enough and decided to self evacuate.

I could go on.

I just can’t see how any passenger would want a DOO train by choice! I believe expansion of DOO is not about moving forward but purely political and cost saving exercise.

 

[the sniper]

Good post. There are a number of militants who seem to take great delight in causing misery for the passengers. These tend to be long termers who have been around a long time and are used to having a cushy job.

It is a very good post, well explained Killingworth, mainly reiterating the points I made the other day about the second ballot. I hope you appreciated every point he made there, rather than just the bit you commented on, seemingly to just get another dig in against your colleagues.

 

[Starmill]

However in a rural area with mainly unstaffed stations with a train full of leisure passenger I think is a very different kettle of fish.

Ely to King's Lynn, Wickford to Southminster or Dorking to Horsham seem to roughly fit this bill, certainly at some times of the year. There are many DOO trains on these routes.

Of course, one can question the wisdom of running these trains routinely with no second member of staff (in the first two cases, at least). Is this providing what passengers want?

A second member of staff was available on all services to Littlehampton and East Grinstead three years ago. Despite the rhetoric from the Secretary of State and the head of the company about the changes meaning more staff and more help for passengers, since the timetable change there has been no second member of staff on many of these trains.

A second member of staff and DOO are distinct concepts, but where DOO has come about, the loss of the second member of staff has followed.

 

[Moonshot]

It is a very good post, well explained Killingworth, mainly reiterating the points I made the other day about the second ballot. I hope you appreciated every point he made there, rather than just the bit you commented on, seemingly to just get another dig in against your colleagues.

Let me put you absolutely 100% straight so that you clearly understand what is happening. I'm right in the thick of all this unlike pretty much everyone else on this thread. So my understanding of the bigger picture is absolutely better than anyone elses. And I am pretty much certain that a second ballot would put an end to these strikes. It would appear to me to be a very fair way of guaging the opinion of guards right now, including those that have never had the opportunity to vote on this, which are now some number due to the fact that guards have been employed since, and are still continuing to be employed. DOO is coming whether we like it or not in the form of new trains, the first of which are already here and being tested. Drivers will be driving them because I simply cannot see them refusing to without a guard on board.

 

[the sniper]

I'm right in the thick of all this unlike pretty much everyone else on this thread. So my understanding of the bigger picture is absolutely better than anyone elses.

I would say that is precisely why you don't see the "the bigger picture" of the dispute. What you describe is exactly the opposite of 'the bigger picture'.

 

[Moonshot]

I would say that is precisely why you don't see the "the bigger picture" of the dispute. What you describe is exactly the opposite of 'the bigger picture'.

Absolute rubbish. This is a dispute about who opens doors. Its that simple. An absent conductor ( for whatever reason ) means a train service is cancelled. That is not what passengers want, though they do want to see staff onboard , the research proves that.

 

[Tomnick]

DOO is coming whether we like it or not in the form of new trains...

Why? The new trains don't have to be worked DOO.

This is a dispute about who opens doors. Its that simple.

No it isn't, and you should know that. Does your rules exam contain questions about things that don't involve opening doors? Why do you need to know, for example, the method of signalling on a route if you're just there to open doors?

 

[the sniper]

Absolute rubbish.

It's conventional wisdom that the view from the trenches doesn't offer the best perspective of an overall war.

This is a dispute about who opens doors. Its that simple. An absent conductor ( for whatever reason ) means a train service is cancelled. That is not what passengers want, though they do want to see staff onboard , the research proves that.

Even in that post, you literally follow up your definitive "Its that simple" with a reason why this dispute isn't simply a matter of who controls the doors. Even your statement about the doors is wrong, if this were literally just about who opens the doors, there would have never been any dispute/strike at all!

I think we're done anyway, something just doesn't seem right about your position here.

 

[Eccles1983]

Well I'm in the third biggest depot in Northern. I speak to guards daily.

Only 1 person has declared they would vote to end the strike.

Also I dont know of 1 driver who is going to accept DOO.

I know this spoils your eastern view but there it is. Only 1 person has turned in on the west during strikes. How many over the dark side?

 

[alansheppard77]

When people say DOO happens without issue in the South East so why not elsewhere. I think there are fundamental issues with comparing TOCS. Although I still consider DOO less safe in the SE it is highly populated area with a lot of rail traffic and stations. E.g. in am emergency I would think assistance from Network Rail and BTP would not take that long to arrive and the majority of passengers on busy DOO service are commuters which in the whole seem to be able to use the rail system on their own.

However in a rural area with mainly unstaffed stations with a train full of leisure passenger I think is a very different kettle of fish.

Can DOO supporters please just try and answer my concerns:

I have been involved in 3 fatalities in which meant the train was significantly disrupted. The drivers were very shaken up and we the train crew dealt with a full train load of disrupted passengers, giving info taking details and liaising with control. 1 involved a lot of PTS and the guard was required to check the train and track. How is a single driver meant to provide this? As some drivers would be almost incapacitated by an incident like this are passengers left in the dark?

I have removed drunk and violent passengers assisted passengers at unstaffed/short-staffed stations. Had passengers have metal health related breakdowns ect.

How does the driver keep exit doors (the emergency exits!) and aisles clear of obstructions bikes and pushchairs and luggage ect.

During temporary block workings the driver has a enough to worry about rather than passengers connections ect due to our 4 hour delay. We have seen in the news where passengers have has enough and decided to self evacuate.

I could go on.

I just can’t see how any passenger would want a DOO train by choice! I believe expansion of DOO is not about moving forward but purely political and cost saving exercise.

but the driver will not be alone as northern have guarenteed that all trains will still have a guard/conductor

 

[Tomnick]

but the driver will not be alone as northern have guarenteed that all trains will still have a guard/conductor

When did they give that guarantee? I’ve not seen any such thing.

 

[virgintrain1]

but the driver will not be alone as northern have guarenteed that all trains will still have a guard/conductor

That's GA not Northern!

 

[Moonshot]

The last few replies simply show why the rail staff do not

but the driver will not be alone as northern have guarenteed that all trains will still have a guard/conductor

No, what Northern have guaranteed is that all current staff will be retained on the same terms and conditions.

What is currently missing is a roadmap describing just how the position is going to evolve over the coming years.

 

[Carlisle]

Ely to King's Lynn, Wickford to Southminster or Dorking to Horsham seem to roughly fit this bill, certainly at some times of the year. There are many DOO trains on these routes.

Of course, one can question the wisdom of running these trains routinely with no second member of staff (in the first two cases, at least). Is this providing what passengers want?

A second member of staff was available on all services to Littlehampton and East Grinstead three years ago. Despite the rhetoric from the Secretary of State and the head of the company about the changes meaning more staff and more help for passengers, since the timetable change there has been no second member of staff on many of these trains.
.

Those services that converted to Thameslink were always specified from the outset to be operated fully DOO, regardless of the outcome of the Southern dispute .

 

[yorkie]

Those services that converted to Thameslink were always specified from the outset to be fully DOO, regardless of the outcome of the Southern dispute .

I don't know what you mean by "fully DOO"; DOO means driver only operation, and describes how the train is operated. The Scotrail electric services where a member of staff constantly patrols the trains checking and selling tickets are ("fully") DOO, for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know what you mean by "fully DOO"; DOO means driver only operation, and describes how the train is operated. The Scotrail electric services where a member of staff constantly patrols the trains checking and selling tickets are "fully DOO" for example.

No second member of staff ever other than revenue squads.

 

[Carlisle]

No second member of staff ever other than revenue squads.

Correct, whereas the Southern services retain an OBS on most former guarded trains

 

[Tomnick]

The last few replies simply show why the rail staff do not

...what?

No, what Northern have guaranteed is that all current staff will be retained on the same terms and conditions.

What is currently missing is a roadmap describing just how the position is going to evolve over the coming years.

Rather than a navigational aid and a load of management nonsense to obscure the reality, I’d rather just know whether they’re committed to maintaining a second member of staff on trains in the long term or whether it’s just a short-term way to keep the peace (relatively) until the current staff retire or expire or whatever. I suspect the latter, given that it’s exactly the approach proposed by the RSSB on the DfT’s behalf.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The various organisations that have operated DOO trains around Glasgow seem to have 'committed' to retaining a second member of staff on all services, at least in diagramming and establishment terms, for around 30 years now. (I am aware that some have faced penalties for failing to actually achieve complete coverage at times but my point is that the underlying intention seems to have endured.)

 

[Starmill]

No second member of staff ever other than revenue squads.

Correct, whereas the Southern services retain an OBS on most former guarded trains

In the cases of Southern routes with an OBS, or Scotrailroutes in Strathclyde with there is sometimes a second (or third etc) member of staff onboard. In the cases of trains where, as you put it "revenue squads" may operate, there is sometimes a second (or third etc) member of staff onboard.

As far as DOO is concerned... what's the difference? How is one more or less 'DOO' than another?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Usually vs sometimes.

 

[Starmill]

Usually vs sometimes.

Right, but that isn't actually anything to do with DOO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Right, but that isn't actually anything to do with DOO.

It is in a wider sense e.g. the passenger care side.

 

[Starmill]

It is my experience that the quality of 'passenger care' and DOO do not have any link between them. Others may disagree, but I think you are slightly conflating two different things here.

 

[alansheppard77]

When did they give that guarantee? I’ve not seen any such thing.

they have said over and over again

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is my experience that the quality of 'passenger care' and DOO do not have any link between them. Others may disagree, but I think you are slightly conflating two different things here.

I think it is very relevant. As a passenger I would not be in support of Northern moving to full Thameslink style DOO, because generally it serves many unstaffed or low staffed stations so passenger care and assistance cannot be assured.

However, I would be in support of a move to a form of DOO (and it is still DOO strictly speaking) similar to the Strathclyde version in which a second member of staff was always present on the train, but their role was exclusively passenger care/assistance and revenue (and some level of safety training e.g. relating to evacuation and protecting the train in emergency). This seems basically to be the Greater Anglia agreement, no?

For rural lines, I support this *more* than traditional driver-guard operation, because operating the doors on rural lines as well as doing revenue causes all kinds of faff - both slower operation and difficulties completing transactions before the next station. At the bare minimum I think all train services in the UK should operate "driver door release", with the exception of where a single local door must be used for a very short platform at a specific station.

 

[Bromley boy]

As far as DOO is concerned... what's the difference? How is one more or less 'DOO' than another?

Absolutely no difference in operational terms.

I would not be in support of Northern moving to full Thameslink style DOO, because generally it serves many unstaffed or low staffed stations so passenger care and assistance cannot be assured.

As does my “true DOO” TOC (at least for metro services) in intensive London-suburban operations.

Passengers requiring assistance are regularly left behind on platforms.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As does my “true DOO” TOC (at least for metro services) in intensive London-suburban operations.

Passengers requiring assistance are regularly left behind.

And I would be in favour of reinstating staff on such services - or making modifications to the services to remove the need for them, as per Merseyrail - i.e. level no-gap boarding. Indeed, as I've said before I think it's a disgrace PRM-TSI did not mandate level no-gap boarding for new rolling stock and platforms, and think with the recent massive orders a huge trick has been missed by everyone other than those who have chosen Stadler.