Upton station is really in Noctorum and residents of both areas have an excellent bus service into Liverpool which has hindered rail passenger growth. Increased frequency and better connections e.g. at Birkenhead North should be the priority over new stations which there is not a sufficient business case for yet. Hopefully if the half hourly service is a success then the business case for new stations will stack up. A Woodchurch station next to Junction 3 would be the best choice for a new station. It is a good location for a park and ride an unlike Beechwood has residential areas on both sides if a pedestrian accesss can be improved e.g. by a footbridge or underpass.
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Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc.
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Statto
Established Member
Woodchurch station [where the line crosses the Woodchurch Road] which has been talked about for years, has same problems as Upton, ie excellent bus service to Birkenhead & Liverpool, be more useful for those traviling Southbound to from Neston or Wales, trains would need to be at least every 15 minutes[30 eve & sun] & direct to Liverpool for any Woodchurch station to be viable otherwise be a white elephant.
If the 'excellent' bus service was matched by an equally excellent train service the latter would surely do well. I can't believe a frequent service with smooth connections would take as long as a bus. I live equidistant from a Northern line station and one of the most frequent bus routes in Liverpool, but most people prefer the former for journeys into the city centre.
Yes, that's where I was thinking. A largeish housing estate and historically quite a deprived one, which could do with better transport links. I had in mind a site near junction 2 of the M53, to allow a park and ride to be built with easy access to the area around Frankby, Greasby and beyond, preferrably with direct access from the motorway.
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Direct service to Birkenhead and Liverpool is the key to viability of any of these new station ideas, and ideally further frequency enhancements. Then the buses would no longer be the superior competitor. Instead some routes could become feeders for the railway.
Quite. Difficult for rail to show its potential on this corridor when it has been hamstrung by an hourly service and the requirement to change at Bidston.
Oddly, there seems to be a lot if demand for bus travel on Wirral, including in and out of Liverpool, and including to areas already served by a dense network of frequent trains, thanks to Merseyrail.
This may be because the tunnel tolls act as a useful deterrent to people making the journey by car. I often think of this situation when I see people here dispute the chances of this or that railway improvement attracting passengers. Perhaps, with a few creative disincentives to the use kf the former, public transport might stand a better chance against the private car
Statto
Established Member
Not just the toll going through the tunnels but car parking charges in Liverpool City Centre can be pricey, £2.50 for 1 hour. £5.50 for 2 hours at Liverpool One, add that with the tolls each way, why the buses do as well as the train does. Plus the buses go through areas not served by rail even though there might be a station at/near the Wirral terminus, certainly the case with the 432/433/437.
It's no different to London so doesn't seem odd to me, it's just the nature of metropolitan travel. The trains are busy but so are the buses, in some cases personal choice based on price, others ease of access, immediacy, etc. That each side of the river is contained inside a metropolitan city with transport options and many years of evolved growth around those means that car ownership is also low.
Given this line goes through the more suburban areas where car ownership is necessarily higher, and connects a town at the end of the line which is full of commuters, I agree that it stands to reason that a proper service would abstract heavily from the motor vehicle, even if people drove a short distance to a station to use it.
frodshamfella
Established Member
and Heswall Station is not handy for the town, I think it was known as Heswall Hills at one time. The town centre is a bustling place, often with a queue of traffic running through it. It could do with a good rail connection, although I don't see how that could be improved.
Well I don't find it odd either, because I see encouraging public transport use (rather than private car use) as sensible and desirable. What is odd is the number of people on a railway forum who don't agree
The cross-river buses will always have an important function running routes that cut across the railway lines, in particular across the parts of Birkenhead and Wallasey which have never had train lines. If Merseytram had ever taken off, street tramways along similar routes, filtering out of the lower deck of the old Mersey Tunnel, would have been useful
tavistock
Member
Spot on. In addition why not a service from Hooton to Manchester?
frodshamfella
Established Member
If they could get the Liverpool to Ellesmere Port trains down to Helsby, you could make a good connection there to Warrington, Manchester, plus Runcorn soon and Liverpool South Parkway (airport). Much more useful than everything in effect stopping at E Port.
I know its also possible to go back up to Liverpool Central/Lime Street for South Parkway and Runcorn, but this small extension would make a big difference, plus give Ince & Elton a usable service.
For those advocating suburban service on the Borderlands Line through Wirral, the various stations could not be more inconveniently located if they tried. Basically the line follows a marshy valley with housing well away from it. Bidston station has always been in the middle of nowhere, Upton station is nowhere near Upton centre, the suggested Woodchurch station site likewise, and Heswall (long called Heswall Hills) must be 2 miles from the centre of Heswall, and although a bit of modern housing has encroached at one side, the other is just rural wheat fields.
As I have noted before, just because a station has the name of a place does not mean it is in any way convenient for it.
As I have noted before, just because a station has the name of a place does not mean it is in any way convenient for it.
frodshamfella
Established Member
But it is a well used service and surely if Merseyrail took over it, the service would likely be enhanced and even more passengers use it than now.
Nowadays, few walk to a rural station. These rural stations perform surely as a park and ride?
The line is not really rural overall and certainly not between Bidston and Neston. The stations in Wirral are on the edge of large settlements. I think any talk of handing overall or part of the line to Merseyrail is premature. A direct service may not be viable especially when you consider the size of a 230s and 777s. Lets see how a more robust timetable, a half hourly service and if it happens extension to Birkenhead North works out. Jumping from an hourly 150 to a half hourly 777 is not a realistic expectation. I know there is naturally a heavy rail bias but the bus service will always be more popular from Upton and Heswall because it is within walking distance of much more people. The Upton buses have a more direct route to Birkenhead and Liverpool therefore even through train services will struggle to be significantly faster.
How can it be "well used" if it has minimalist 2-car trains just once an hour.
Perhaps minimalism is popular in Liverpool and Wales.
I would have thought though that the willingness to invest in rolling stock, the activity to extend the service, and the planning to increase to two trains an hour does indicate some measure of official confidence in the route's popularity. It does seem strange to have a part of the Wirral so very isolated from the rest of the city, especially given some of the demographics involved.
Having just followed the route on the OS map, I'd express it rather by saying stations are typically on the edge of a settlement. Usually there are a significant number of houses within walking distance of each station, but the stations are not central to the places they are named after.
frodshamfella
Established Member
Under investment. I have used this service and I don't live local to it, I was really surprised how busy it was. It's a total disregard to passengers who use this route to just do nothing, it clearly needs improvement.
jamesst
Established Member
About the only 2 stations in the Northern part of the route I can think that are central to the town are Neston and Shotton
tavistock
Member
Not a cat in hell’s chance of EP getting anything like a proper service Eastwards as long as Northern have the franchise. They promised a direct service to Manchester when they won the franchise. Yeah like that’s going to happen
You could use a similar argument to claim that the Stoke to Derby line can manage perfectly well with a 153 every hour as you can fit going on for 150 people on each.
frodshamfella
Established Member
Why does Northern even have this ?
For every silver lining, there's a cloud. That's the railforums motto.
Most of the existing stations, and the obvious sites for new ones, are within reasonable walking distance of fairly sizeable suburban areas. The spare space around them can be used for.park and rides, which will be popular with people driving from the rural areas near those stations. The additional services will hopefully encourage patronage, provide an attractive alternative to buses (though they'll still retain appeal for the non-rail serves parts of Birkenhead) and provide the rationale for integration with Merseyrail
Most of the existing stations, and the obvious sites for new ones, are within reasonable walking distance of fairly sizeable suburban areas. The spare space around them can be used for.park and rides, which will be popular with people driving from the rural areas near those stations. The additional services will hopefully encourage patronage, provide an attractive alternative to buses (though they'll still retain appeal for the non-rail serves parts of Birkenhead) and provide the rationale for integration with Merseyrail
tavistock
Member
They clearly don't want it. There's no reason why Merseyrail should not have it, as most of it is in their area
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