Does Cornwall / Devon need more express services?

[Starmill]

The M-F 0900 from Penzance is pretty fast. After Plymouth it calls Exeter St Davids, Reading & London Paddington.

 

[MarkyT]

To some limited extent, but the car was taking over and I think the TOC would be very unwise to try and reverse the situation - much. I recommend the two books about the GWR published by David and Charles at the GWR 150 celebrations, for an excellent analysis on the waste of resources of the holiday traffic. It should also be remembered how much extra infrastructure in the form of loops and sidings was needed too, just for those two months.

To be fair the holiday market itself has changed beyond all recognition from the old bucket and spade brigade. Destinations even in the traditional parts of the country are more spread out and people like to have their cars available to visit attractions etc. Then there was the great flight to the Med and further afield from the 1960s. There is still a niche rail based holiday trade but it as much weekends and short breaks that is less summer peaky and not all travelling on the traditional Friday/Saturday changeover.

 

[MarkyT]

Is it not obvious? They assume that, like almost all trains you could use in this country, the doors will close automatically.

I agree. Trains with manual doors are very fast becoming the exception today. The remaining Mk3s will soon all have remotely-closable exterior doors soon and I think they are the last non equipped major fleet apart from heritage/excursion stock.

 

[Starmill]

To be fair the holiday market itself has changed beyond all recognition from the old bucket and spade brigade. Destinations even in the traditional parts of the country are more spread out and people like to have their cars available to visit attractions etc. Then there was the great flight to the Med and further afield from the 1960s.

While this is true the Voyager introduction was not until the early 00s - decades after the package holiday revolution of the 1960s. It did not stop people from predicting disaster, or disaster from occurring much as predicted.

There is still incredible leisure demand on many intercity routes centered around Weekends and Holidays. There may be limited 'bucket and spade' traffic, but the leisure demand at Christmas last year and Easter this year was anecdotally overwhelming.

 

[bramling]

I agree. Trains with manual doors are very fast becoming the exception today. The remaining Mk3s will soon all have remotely-closable exterior doors soon and I think they are the last non equipped major fleet apart from heritage/excursion stock.

I can see the point about these trains now being the exception, however I still find it pathetic that people pay so little attention to their surroundings. I was on an HST down to St Erth last week, and the train was losing time at every stop due to doors being left open. Surely many of these users must be regulars?

 

[MarkyT]

While this is true the Voyager introduction was not until the early 00s - decades after the package holiday revolution of the 1960s. It did not stop people from predicting disaster, or disaster from occurring much as predicted.

There is still incredible leisure demand on many intercity routes centered around Weekends and Holidays. There may be limited 'bucket and spade' traffic, but the leisure demand at Christmas last year and Easter this year was anecdotally overwhelming.

The Voyager fleet in particular does struggle to keep pace with those fluctuations throughout the year, I agree. XC try to double them up on some of the busiest trains today at least and XC HST maintenance moving to Laira may make their deployment easier and more flexible on the busiest west country trains too.

 

[exile]

Is it not obvious? They assume that, like almost all trains you could use in this country, the doors will close automatically.

Just because a slam door is something an enthusiast notices, why on earth might the average customer? The only exception is the first person off the train. By definition they are usually not the last.

In fact I'm surprised more passengers don't get left on the train having expected the doors to open on their own

 

[frodshamfella]

This I agree with. Back in the 80's & 90's, Intercity services were HST's and even those leaving Birmingham New Street bound for Penzance were well loaded in the summer months.


Quite why when the Voyagers were ordered, that only 4 and 5 car variants materialised is something of an enigma to me. I understand the thinking that Virgin CrossCountry at the time were aiming for increased frequency with shorter trains, but logically it didn't make sense.

What should have happened in the mid-2000's when the issue was well known, is that the DfT should have authorised the ordering of more carriages to bring the 220's and 221's upto seven cars in length like their sister class 222's.

Why this still couldn't be done, other than cost, I don't know, but it would certainly be a welcome move if something of the like was to happen. Similarly, I would have thought - and at risk of setting off a raucous debate - instead of GWR sending their HST's up to Scotland, they should go to XC, and the voyagers be cascaded for the services that ScotRail propose.

Last year I travelled down to Cornwall on my holidays, and a full and standing voyager from Birmingham to Plymouth was a very uncomfortable journey - having a seat reservation made absolutely no difference, because it wasn't possible to get past all of the people and luggage to even reach the seats.

Changing at Plymouth and onto a similarly packed GWR HST from Pad to Penzance just goes to show how there isn't the capacity currently on the Devon and Cornwall services, in the summer months anyway.

Im sure there used to be summer services from Liverpool to Devon and Cornwall. I have to travel to Exeter for work reasons from time to time. I have done it from Runcorn, but it's not a pleasant trip. OK to Birmingham but with luggage it's a pain changing, then you get a packed cross country service...no seats no luggage space people standing. It should be and was so much More comfortable.

 

[Master29]

There are still manic periods on the GWR in summer with festivals. Board masters and tall ships spring to mind but in general the season now seems to start from March through to end October and even beyond sometimes. It is still at it`s busiest during the 7 week period but most Paddington bound trains from Penzance are nearly always full by the time they reach Plymouth, even midweek, although many leave the train here.

 

[HowardGWR]

There is another development that changes the pattern of travel. It used to be that people took their holidays from Friday evening to Saturday afternoon. Any hotel or B and B nowadays that expected guests only to arrive on a Saturday and stay a week precisely, would go out of business. Also, it used to be that the landlady did the B and B and her husband had a job, but now, many couples do this stuff as a lifestyle choice.

This means that there is not the weekend pattern of coming and going that there was.

 

[irish_rail]

Let us hope that if XC HSTmaintenance does end up at Laira as predicted that we don't end up losing our HST afternoon services to the north. If all HSTs leave Plymouth before 7 of clock in the morning then the provision of longer trains throughout the day from the south west will end and we will suffer short voyagers on all the busy trains.

 

[Schweir]

Surely an announcement by the guard and / or clearer notices to shut the doors may help?

I noticed a sign at Westbury the other day, but who knows how many people see the notice, let alone read it!

 

[jimm]

Im sure there used to be summer services from Liverpool to Devon and Cornwall. I have to travel to Exeter for work reasons from time to time. I have done it from Runcorn, but it's not a pleasant trip. OK to Birmingham but with luggage it's a pain changing, then you get a packed cross country service...no seats no luggage space people standing. It should be and was so much More comfortable.

Under BR there were - but when InterCity was a single national operation, it was quite easy to borrow a rake of Mk2s or Mk3s that weren't needed on West Midlands or Manchester services on a Saturday, bung a 47 on the front and send it to the South West and back.

GWR continues to use HSTs that are busy elsewhere on weekdays to operate its summer weekend/bank holiday West Country extras - same will apply with IETs - but other than turning out all its HSTs at once, XC effectively has zero flexibility in its fleet to begin with and what would be involved by way of bureaucracy for XC to borrow a few 221s from Virgin for the day - which probably aren't available anyway - doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[4141]

If you've never read it, may I recommend Richard Woodley's "The day of the Holiday Express" to see just how much went on in the West Country in BR days...

 

[Starmill]

what would be involved by way of bureaucracy for XC to borrow a few 221s from Virgin for the day - which probably aren't available anyway - doesn't bear thinking about.

This has happened actually, when VT were running a greatly reduced timetable (either because they were on strike or because of the closure of Euston I can't remember), a pair were hired for the day by XC.

Of course, the circumstances for this are very infrequent.

 

[221129]

This has happened actually, when VT were running a greatly reduced timetable (either because they were on strike or because of the closure of Euston I can't remember), a pair were hired for the day by XC.

Of course, the circumstances for this are very infrequent.

Euston was shut and they were hired due to the Reading festival.

 

[221129]

Let us hope that if XC HSTmaintenance does end up at Laira as predicted that we don't end up losing our HST afternoon services to the north. If all HSTs leave Plymouth before 7 of clock in the morning then the provision of longer trains throughout the day from the south west will end and we will suffer short voyagers on all the busy trains.

WHEN the HST maintenance goes to Laura in December I'd say it is likely that at least 1 or sets are likely to start there in the morning and come back in the evening.

 

[iantherev]

If you've never read it, may I recommend Richard Woodley's "The day of the Holiday Express" to see just how much went on in the West Country in BR days...

I second this although if it happened today the unreliability would have this forum in meltdown for days.

 

[pt_mad]

I agree. Trains with manual doors are very fast becoming the exception today. The remaining Mk3s will soon all have remotely-closable exterior doors soon and I think they are the last non equipped major fleet apart from heritage/excursion stock.

Are all the MK3s remaining to receive electric doors?

I'm doubtful the current XC will ever release a HST with electric doors. The franchise ends next year and still no sign of one. Probably be the following franchise now.

 

[Bald Rick]

Are all the MK3s remaining to receive electric doors?

I'm doubtful the current XC will ever release a HST with electric doors. The franchise ends next year and still no sign of one. Probably be the following franchise now.

Yes Cross Country’s HSTs are getting power doors.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are all the MK3s remaining to receive electric doors?

I'm doubtful the current XC will ever release a HST with electric doors. The franchise ends next year and still no sign of one. Probably be the following franchise now.

The ongoing conversion contract would almost certainly carry on, as a new franchise would have to use the existing fleet for the first couple of years, even if they plan to replace them. Personally I think, (despite all the recent posts surmising early replacement of XC trains), the next franchisee won’t actually be doing that...

 

[pt_mad]

The ongoing conversion contract would almost certainly carry on, as a new franchise would have to use the existing fleet for the first couple of years, even if they plan to replace them. Personally I think, (despite all the recent posts surmising early replacement of XC trains), the next franchisee won’t actually be doing that...

But why the current delay? The direct award committing them to fitting electric doors was announced years ago. And not even one set in service?

 

[swt_passenger]

But why the current delay? The direct award committing them to fitting electric doors was announced years ago. And not even one set in service?

No idea. It’s been fairly well discussed in other more relevant threads though, in the rolling stock forum. More supposition here (as that’s what it would be) would probably be needless duplication.

 

[D1009]

But why the current delay? The direct award committing them to fitting electric doors was announced years ago. And not even one set in service?

After it was announced, the conversion proved to be more problematical than was originally envisaged.

 

[TheWalrus]

The last few times I’ve been at Exeter St. David’s I’ve seen trains between Penzance and London Paddington absolutely rammed. Admittedly it has been on a couple of Fridays. I decided not to travel yesterday as I didn’t want to travel in cramped conditions for an hour. Previously I had to stand all the way to Westbury as it was full up and no seats even in First Class.

My suggestion would be hourly to Plymouth calling at Reading, Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter St. David’s, Newton Abbot, Totnes, Plymouth with extensions to Penzance calling at Liskeard, Bodmin Parkway, Par, St Austell, Truro, Redruth, Camborne, St. Erth and Penzance. Alternatively London-Penzance could be hourly with certain calls alternating.

Then have an additional hourly semi-fast calling at Reading, Newbury, Hungerford, some at Bedwyn, Pewsey, Westbury, Castle Cary, Taunton, Exeter St. David’s, then either Starcross, Dawlish, Teignmouth and stations to Paignton or Newton Abbot, Totnes and Plymouth. Could alternate between Plymouth and Paignton each hour.

 

[yorksrob]

It doesn't help that holiday lets tend to changeover on Fridays these days, piling the pressure on what was traditionally already a busy day.

 

[island]

Im sure there used to be summer services from Liverpool to Devon and Cornwall. I have to travel to Exeter for work reasons from time to time. I have done it from Runcorn, but it's not a pleasant trip. OK to Birmingham but with luggage it's a pain changing, then you get a packed cross country service...no seats no luggage space people standing. It should be and was so much More comfortable.

Imagine if there was a way you could indicate an intention to travel on a particular train and receive a slip of paper specifying that a seat would be allocated to you for your trip. They could call it “seat reservations”

Surely an announcement by the guard and / or clearer notices to shut the doors may help?

I noticed a sign at Westbury the other day, but who knows how many people see the notice, let alone read it!

At least it keeps the chaps who rush up and down the platforms shutting the doors in work.

 

[Robertj21a]

The last few times I’ve been at Exeter St. David’s I’ve seen trains between Penzance and London Paddington absolutely rammed. Admittedly it has been on a couple of Fridays. I decided not to travel yesterday as I didn’t want to travel in cramped conditions for an hour. Previously I had to stand all the way to Westbury as it was full up and no seats even in First Class.

My suggestion would be hourly to Plymouth calling at Reading, Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter St. David’s, Newton Abbot, Totnes, Plymouth with extensions to Penzance calling at Liskeard, Bodmin Parkway, Par, St Austell, Truro, Redruth, Camborne, St. Erth and Penzance. Alternatively London-Penzance could be hourly with certain calls alternating.

Then have an additional hourly semi-fast calling at Reading, Newbury, Hungerford, some at Bedwyn, Pewsey, Westbury, Castle Cary, Taunton, Exeter St. David’s, then either Starcross, Dawlish, Teignmouth and stations to Paignton or Newton Abbot, Totnes and Plymouth. Could alternate between Plymouth and Paignton each hour.

What, all year round ?

 

[coppercapped]

As another poster recently pointed out, Betteridge's law of headlines applies: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."

 

[TheWalrus]

What, all year round ?

This is what I'm trying to establish - is the demand only on the times I've seen it; is it only during the summer?

I think an hourly Exeter semi-fast to make it half hourly at least to Exeter would be a good start. A half-hourly London-Plymouth would be a good aspiration I believe.