New Transdev Cityzap services registered (and now cancelled)

[158756]

They launching express services in July on coastliner but the buses will be from York depot rather than Malton so wonder if this will be the new home for the ex cityzap buses

Wouldn't be a surprise. Of course, if the bus operator actually cared about running a bus service the only sensible place to send them would be Rosso. But of course their new home will be 'amazing' and provide plenty of photo opportunities.

Not at all surprised Cityzap failed either. It was on a hiding to nothing trying to compete with the frequent train service on the M62 car park, and we know free passes aren't enough to sustain a route.

 

[gnolife]

They launching express services in July on coastliner but the buses will be from York depot rather than Malton so wonder if this will be the new home for the ex cityzap buses

Hows that going to work? Cityzap finishes 3 weeks after the Coastliner express starts.

 

[leedslad82]

Hows that going to work? Cityzap finishes 3 weeks after the Coastliner express starts.

It was only rumoured when I posted that city zap was been withdrawn. No we know the truth the city zap buses must be being used for something else

 

[Dentonian]

I suspect this withdrawal was inevitable. I wonder if you spoke to anyone aged 35-64 in and around any bus station in GM - and I very much include Piccadilly Gardens in this - the only thing they would know about Cityzap was it was an otherwise anonymous grey single 'decker they might just have seen on Portland Street or Oldham Road. If the bus industry (and increasingly others) are sending out a subliminal message that (occasional commuters apart), Thatcher/Duchess of Westminster were right, people over 26 are not welcome on our buses, they can hardly complain there aren't enough under 26s to go round!

 

[Dentonian]

Do it. It's good fun if you get a decent trip on the M62!

The stars will have to align (lol) ie. dry Saturday but much reduced Pollen count; no short-term health issues and no other commitments. But, fingers crossed!

 

[Mugby]

I might do it before it finishes, what's the standard single fare from Manc to Leeds, assuming no special offers?

 

[Andyh82]

Wouldn't be a surprise. Of course, if the bus operator actually cared about running a bus service the only sensible place to send them would be Rosso. But of course their new home will be 'amazing' and provide plenty of photo opportunities.

Why would the only place to send them be Rosso?

As they were fully refurbished with quilted leather seats etc I expect they will want to use them for something else high profile, not just absorb them into regular service.

 

[route101]

I might do it before it finishes, what's the standard single fare from Manc to Leeds, assuming no special offers?

Ill try and do it too , sooner rather than later as it may get stopped earlier.

 

[route101]

I might do it before it finishes, what's the standard single fare from Manc to Leeds, assuming no special offers?

£6.50

 

[Dentonian]

Ill try and do it too , sooner rather than later as it may get stopped earlier.

It's registered as a local service so they would be in trouble if they withdrew it earlier than 22 July.

 

[SCH117X]

Judging by a comment on their web page another route is on the cards

"Keep a lookout for future developments of our Cityzap brand in the future - we're already looking at the possibilities for expanding the Cityzap concept to more places over the coming months and years."

They now do have knowledge of what works and what does not, although Leeds-York is simply an express Coastliner with an existing customer base initially so less risky than Leeds-Manchester. The satnav feature is more use on the York service (The main alternative being shorter A64 all the way or longer M1-A1-A64) although its difficult to see many other routes where it will be anything other than a gimmick. Presumably the remoteness of the depot was a factor in the costs of the Manchester service which if it was being started today would probably be run from Rochdale. Always thought some workings should have been run by Starbeck to cut further the length of depot runs.

 

[AJW12]

I'm not sure on another CityZap route that isn't risky, I doubt they'd attempt another for a while anyway - Manchester/Leeds would have lost them one rather nasty sum of money. The B7RLEs will probably just be repainted and moved to another depot - my bet is Rosso. I doubt they'd be used on the Coastliner summer enhancements - as the X40 is absolutely rammed with a double decker.

It would be good to see some way of reorganising the fleet which means they can put an extra bus or two on the York/Leeds zap. That suffers daily cancellations and consistent lateness because they're on a ridiculously tight and unsustainable timetable.

Maybe they will try the Zap again somewhere else but I think to make it work, they'd have to try and put it on a route where either:
- the route doesn't take much longer than the train, so certain areas of the cities being served get a very comparable journey time (e.g. York Stonebow - Leeds Bus Station on the zap is quite comparable to going to the station, waiting for a train, going to Leeds, walking across the city)
- there's a well-used service connecting the two places where the journey time is much longer than it could be.

I once wondered about York-Hull express; the current bus is well over two hours (even the X4 was excessively long) and the train is about an hour at the usual pathetic Northern frequency.

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[Andyh82]

Is there any opportunity in the Rosso area

Rochdale to Manchester Fast
or
Bury to Manchester Fast

or maybe have another go at Harrogate to York Fast?

 

[Bungle965]

Is there any opportunity in the Rosso area

Rochdale to Manchester Fast
or
Bury to Manchester Fast

or maybe have another go at Harrogate to York Fast?

There was clearly demand, the X35 was regularly full in the morning and evening peak. Which went from Bury to Manchester via the Motorway.
Sam

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is there any opportunity in the Rosso area

Rochdale to Manchester Fast
or
Bury to Manchester Fast

or maybe have another go at Harrogate to York Fast?

The experience of Harrogate to York is that it’s difficult in peak to have any sort of time advantage over the train. In the off peak, it’s Harold and Maureen using their pass and so Transdev get FA. That’s what killed the X54!

 

[northwichcat]

On VOSA today

• PC0005249/154 Cancelled
  BURNLEY & PENDLE TRAVEL LTD
  
  Route: MANCHESTER CHORLTON STREET to HUDDERSFIELD AINLEY TOP
  
  Service number: CITY ZAP
  
  Service type: Limited Stop
  
  Effective date: 22 Jul 2018
  
  
• PC0005249/155 Cancelled
  BURNLEY & PENDLE TRAVEL LTD
  
  Route: Huddersfield, Ainley Top to Leeds Bus Station
  
  Service number: City Zap
  
  Service type: Limited Stop
  
  Effective date: 22 Jul 2018
  

 

[SCH117X]

Agree no chance of Harrogate - York; X54s were pretty full during the day but losing money hand over fist due to the paltry contribution from NYCC for concessionary users. In any case Harrogate is not a City so would be stretching the Cityzap concept.

 

[Ianno87]

Is there any opportunity in the Rosso area

Rochdale to Manchester Fast
or
Bury to Manchester Fast

or maybe have another go at Harrogate to York Fast?

Rosso did try an hourly X46 a few years back. Basically 464 route from Rawtenstall to Rochdale (hence the number) then express to Manchester via (IIRC) the A627(M), outskirts of Middleton then Rochdale Rd. The one time I used it we were the only passengers, and it was withdrawn soon after.

 

[The Lad]

I think it was from the outskirts of Bacup but due to parked cars couldn't run through the estate to turn and turned on the main road! Handy while it lasted but slow, IIRC it was about the time a congestion charge was being proposed for Manchester. Anyway I did a run from Lancs to East Yorks involving a Transdev Daytripper + and amongst others both CityZaps, X43 and Coastliner and 16 hours. The 0810 from Manchester had 2 and the 1935 from Leeds 4 although only 2 from Ainley Top. All ran to time and some cracking views and friendly staff.
Use it whilst you can.

 

[158756]

Rosso did try an hourly X46 a few years back. Basically 464 route from Rawtenstall to Rochdale (hence the number) then express to Manchester via (IIRC) the A627(M), outskirts of Middleton then Rochdale Rd. The one time I used it we were the only passengers, and it was withdrawn soon after.

Rochdale to Manchester isn't a fast route however you do it - Google maps tells me it would currently take the same time to drive as from Rawtenstall. Bacup won't have that much demand to get to Manchester, and from Rochdale onwards all regular bus users will have First or possibly Stagecoach tickets. From Rossendale it'd be quicker to use the 464 to get to the X43 at Rawtenstall, and you can now make that journey on one ticket. I wonder if they bother to advertise it?

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Is there any opportunity in the Rosso area

Rochdale to Manchester Fast
or
Bury to Manchester Fast

or maybe have another go at Harrogate to York Fast?

What about Oldham to Manchester FAST?

 

[PermitToTravel]

The X84 is nearly non-stop between Manchester and Oldham (considerably fewer stops than the tram!) and takes a whole hour; more at peak times. There isn't a motorway or faster route - could a non stop bus really beat that at all!?

The tram does it in 30 minutes bang on!

 

[Dentonian]

The X84 is nearly non-stop between Manchester and Oldham (considerably fewer stops than the tram!) and takes a whole hour; more at peak times. There isn't a motorway or faster route - could a non stop bus really beat that at all!?

The tram does it in 30 minutes bang on!

Do want to try doing a bit of research first!

1. The X84 *only* runs in the peak.

2. It doesn't serve Oldham town centre. The nearest stop being Clarksfield (the opposite side of Oldham to Manchester) with tghe slowest journey to/from there scheduled around 50 mins.

3. Its primary market is from Saddleworth, which is not only a considerable distance away from Metrolink, but has only one havy rail line (Greenfield) close to the route.

That said, there is no longer scope for Express buses to/from Manchester except through the corridor to the west of the county. Just as Deregulation forced an increase in car ownership/use in general, the "Field of Nightmares" M60 has stopped any possibility of it being constrained, especially to the east of the county. Between Sharston (to the south of the county) and Failsworth (ENE) the M60 is gridlocked nearly every peak hour, not only due to the sheer amount of traffic, but due to awful driving standards - and not just amongst private motorists! Virtually every weekday, there is either an accident or breakdown, leading to multiple lane closures and 10+ mile tailbacks. This in turn, spills over into neighbouring A roads and towns.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Do want to try doing a bit of research first!

1. The X84 *only* runs in the peak.

2. It doesn't serve Oldham town centre. The nearest stop being Clarksfield (the opposite side of Oldham to Manchester) with tghe slowest journey to/from there scheduled around 50 mins.

3. Its primary market is from Saddleworth, which is not only a considerable distance away from Metrolink, but has only one havy rail line (Greenfield) close to the route.

You're kinda right. It serves Primrose Bank, which is basically the town centre - and does that journey in 30ish minutes at 6AM (hardly the peak!). The arrivals/departures at suitable commuting times are considerably slower.

That said, there is no longer scope for Express buses to/from Manchester except through the corridor to the west of the county. Just as Deregulation forced an increase in car ownership/use in general, the "Field of Nightmares" M60 has stopped any possibility of it being constrained, especially to the east of the county. Between Sharston (to the south of the county) and Failsworth (ENE) the M60 is gridlocked nearly every peak hour, not only due to the sheer amount of traffic, but due to awful driving standards - and not just amongst private motorists! Virtually every weekday, there is either an accident or breakdown, leading to multiple lane closures and 10+ mile tailbacks. This in turn, spills over into neighbouring A roads and towns.

spills over onto parallel roads, sure (A560 can be really bad), but in the peaks the congestion on Oldham Road is facing *away* from the M60. That quadrant of the M60 moves fine at rush hour

 

[Dentonian]

You're kinda right. It serves Primrose Bank, which is basically the town centre - and does that journey in 30ish minutes at 6AM (hardly the peak!). The arrivals/departures at suitable commuting times are considerably slower.


spills over onto parallel roads, sure (A560 can be really bad), but in the peaks the congestion on Oldham Road is facing *away* from the M60. That quadrant of the M60 moves fine at rush hour

You're kinda right. It serves Primrose Bank, which is basically the town centre - and does that journey in 30ish minutes at 6AM (hardly the peak!). The arrivals/departures at suitable commuting times are considerably slower.


spills over onto parallel roads, sure (A560 can be really bad), but in the peaks the congestion on Oldham Road is facing *away* from the M60. That quadrant of the M60 moves fine at rush hour

I think its stretching a point to call Primrose Bank, Oldham town centre, as you would have to walk across Oldham Way roundabout to get within sight of the stop. Indeed, using Oldham Way to avoid the town centre is a deliberate selling point, given between them the 83 & 180/184 run 12-14 times an hour down Oldham Road.
Equally, its presumably because the M60 around (and to the north of) Oldham runs relatively smoothly, that such a service survives. You couldn't risk the same thing along Ashton Old Road or Hyde Road (which used to be excellently served by Limited Stop buses), or in/out of Stockport.

 

[Andyh82]

I feel they launched it at the wrong time of year, there are less leisure travellers in the winter, the traffic is worse in the winter, then there is the bad weather and snow to cope with. When you consider how long winter went on for they’ve had about a month between spring starting and the withdrawal being announced.

I travelled on it for the first time yesterday and the stars must have aligned well as it was a good on time run in both directions. There were 13-14 people on board Ainley Top to Manchester.

Before withdrawal entirely I wonder if they should have either reduced the frequency, served more stops heading into Manchester or diverted via Brighouse rejoining the Motorway at either J25 or J26, if the business travellers wanting the fastest journey were non existent, a slower journey picking up more leisure passengers on the way may have been an option to grow numbers.

 

[Statto]

I think its stretching a point to call Primrose Bank, Oldham town centre, as you would have to walk across Oldham Way roundabout to get within sight of the stop. Indeed, using Oldham Way to avoid the town centre is a deliberate selling point, given between them the 83 & 180/184 run 12-14 times an hour down Oldham Road.
Equally, its presumably because the M60 around (and to the north of) Oldham runs relatively smoothly, that such a service survives. You couldn't risk the same thing along Ashton Old Road or Hyde Road (which used to be excellently served by Limited Stop buses), or in/out of Stockport.

Ironically the 180/184 along with the withdrawn 183 used to run limited stop using GM Express branded buses, but congestion has extended the running times so much that no point in operating limited stop as because of the traffic they'll have the same journey times, that they now serve all stops, even off peak they take 40 minutes Oldham-Manchester when it used to take 30 minutes, Oldham Road is a nightmare in the peaks as well.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I feel they launched it at the wrong time of year, there are less leisure travellers in the winter, the traffic is worse in the winter, then there is the bad weather and snow to cope with. When you consider how long winter went on for they’ve had about a month between spring starting and the withdrawal being announced.

I travelled on it for the first time yesterday and the stars must have aligned well as it was a good on time run in both directions. There were 13-14 people on board Ainley Top to Manchester.

Before withdrawal entirely I wonder if they should have either reduced the frequency, served more stops heading into Manchester or diverted via Brighouse rejoining the Motorway at either J25 or J26, if the business travellers wanting the fastest journey were non existent, a slower journey picking up more leisure passengers on the way may have been an option to grow numbers.

Ah but would more stops mean more resources required and more leisure passengers mean more paltry ENCTS remuneration?

 

[Statto]

Main problem with the Manchester-Leeds CityZap is the compeating National Express service which finish later & similar fares on Coaches with leather seating, rather than a standard bus with converted dual purpouse leather seating, only thing going for CityZap is the use of ENCTS passes.