Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Dore & Totley]

Sorry if this has already been covered, but just having a look on RTT, Northern appear to have made the Hope Valley services hourly, but then introduced some skip-stopping. For example, one train (15:45 Sheff - Man) runs Sheffield - Hope - Chinley and then usual service to Manchester. I must question who is going to be using this between Sheffield and New Mills - Hope and Chinley don't supply a whole train, nor does eastern Manchester from Sheffield, and anyone going all the way would use the fasts. I assume this has been done to allow for freight, but it does seems odd. The same goes for the 13:14 (Sheff - Man), which skips Dore and Edale for no discernable reason.

Equally, going the other way there are two skip-stop trains (19:49 and 21:19 Man-Sheff), one of which skips the entire Hope Valley, the other skips Edale and Grindleford. Surely having 4 skip-stops per day which skip different stations will just be unnessesarily complicated. It leads to changing times every hour, and surely it will lead to people boarding a train to a stop at which it doesn't call (in particular from the stations without any DMIs or announcements).

I know it's in the best intentions of squeezing in as many trains as possible, but this doesn't strike me as the best way of doing anything!

As a former user of Dore & Totley I was pleased to see this addition until I saw it skipped Dore. It would have been perfect for me to get home on time to pick up my kids. Ho hum staying in the car for me

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It could be thought that 'Liverpool via Manchester' would be more appropriate, but I suppose that 'via Manchester Airport' needs to be stipulated in order to distinguish from 'via Stockport'.

If today was anything to go by, the 0928 Crewe service was announced at Lime St as just that, with all stations mentioned including Crewe.
No advice that it was an indirect service.
All to pot on the Chat Moss route this morning, with "emergency incident between Earlestown and Eccles" and "points failure between Huyton and Earlestown" for our entertainment.
TPE had stopped running west of Victoria and seemed to be in as much of a mess as Northern today, with trains turning short all over the place, including at Durham, Malton and Thornaby.

The Liverpool-Blackpool services go at xx36, but the 0936 which I was on does a funny manoeuvre at Wigan.
It terminates there, but runs on to Preston ECS.
So we were dumped on to an already overcrowded platform at Wigan to catch the following Airport-Blackpool, which was of course cancelled.
Virgin were also in trouble with cancellations and late running, and it was the best part of an hour before the next northbound train..
Meanwhile, the 319 crew shooed everybody off and disappeared empty to Preston.
I ended up on the second Euston-Blackpool Pendolino of the day, where I was the only occupant of coach A.

At Blackpool, I aimed for the 1201 to Liverpool, running late and advertised as "Exp 1214".
It duly rolled in, but there was no hurry to open the prison doors for boarding.
While we watched the gaggle of Northern staff on the platform, the PIS changed to "1305 On Time".
The 1201 had vanished in a puff of smoke, with passengers directed to the replacement bus.

I got the later 319 shuttle to Preston, which was about the only train running more or less to time.
I then headed for the 1325 Preston-Bolton-Airport, a 185...

From RTT I doubt that Northern has any 185s today. I believe that the 0841 Airport to Barrow (1C51) is intended to be formed from 2x185, with the rear portion detached at Preston. However, this service was terminated at Preston, 57 late, with the unusual declared reason:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22835/2018/05/22/advanced
The same pair of 185s would go on to work the 1742 Airport to Barrow (1C54). Reported on another thread that yesterday the substitute 158 was so rammed that only about 10 passengers managed to board at Oxford Road.

Well, there was one 185 as noted above (a single one), running 20 late (the conductor blamed a "slow taxi" for the driver's transfer).

Victoria was full of vexed TPE passengers, affected by the repeated cancellations towards Liverpool and the Airport.
Not a good day, though the staff did seem to be trying to keep cheerful and polite.
It seemed like about 40% of Northern services were cancelled, with the rest anything up to an hour late.

Best sight of the day was an Arriva bus parked up at Huyton bus station.
It had a big route display screen, showing the fixed word "Sorry" (no doubt the first part of "Sorry, not in service").
Just about sums up public transport just now.

I helped a foreign lady (Romanian, at a guess) at Lime St, who was unable to find her Manchester train and with no English.
Normally she would have been on the TPE fast, but it was cancelled.
She first tried to get through the barrier line marked with a red "X", and then tried to open the doors of my Wigan train (still closed and locked).
I directed her to the front train which was the Crewe stopper, but she clearly had no clue what she was doing.
I checked her train's progress on RTT and it didn't do badly until Ordsall Lane where it encountered severe delays before reaching Oxford Road/Piccadilly, with a 45 minute delay.
Our rail system must be a nightmare for such people on a chaotic day like today.

 

[janb]

On the 0611 from Barrow you could probably just about account for the loss of five minutes between there and Preston through the inferiority of a Sprinter (presumably) compared to a 185. The loss of nine minutes between Preston and Salford Crescent is harder to explain, and it would certainly be impossible to explain the loss of twenty-three minutes between there and Manchester Airport. Clearly there were other factors involved in the loss of time.

The publicly stated reason was a signalling fault in the Manchester area. Then with the return train running late, no driver from Preston to Barrow. Although it may just have been that it was so late it was running in the same path as the 1044 Preston to Barrow.

 

[Philip]

The new Mid Cheshire line timetable is less resilient to delays, because the hourly Northern services in opposite directions are scheduled to cross close to the Navigation Road single line. For example, this afternoon the 1502 Chester to Piccadilly was 4 minutes late at Altrincham, so the on-time 1541 Piccadilly to Chester was allowed through the single line before it. This made the eastbound service 8 late at Stockport. Consequently the 1534 Buxton to Piccadilly, which was on time at Davenport, had to wait for a platform at Stockport, and ended up 13 late at Levenshulme.

Would it not just be easier to re-time either of those services then, ie. change the 15:02 from Chester into the 14:58, or the 15:41 of Manchester into the 15:45? From the Chester end, I wouldn't have thought leaving 4 minutes earlier would affect things too much, since the Arriva Wales service leaves for Warrington and Manchester a good few minutes beforehand.

 

[northernchris]

The Southport-Leeds service is looking like a disaster, for the second day in a row hardly any services achieving PPM. For such a long service it seems to lack recovery time so even a minor delay towards one end soon becomes major as it passes congested areas. The 1824 Southport-Leeds has terminated at Hebden Bridge 124 late after departing Southport 53 late. It's a bit frustrating as this service could provide some useful links

One thing I hadn't realised until this week (and don't know how I missed this!) but there's quite a substantial increase to evening services although these are bearing the brunt of the disruption

 

[Bovverboy]

LNW-GW Joint said:
I then headed for the 1325 Preston-Bolton-Airport, a 185...

Greybeard33 said:
From RTT I doubt that Northern has any 185s today. I believe that the 0841 Airport to Barrow (1C51) is intended to be formed from 2x185, with the rear portion detached at Preston. However, this service was terminated at Preston, 57 late, with the unusual declared reason:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22835/2018/05/22/advanced
The same pair of 185s would go on to work the 1742 Airport to Barrow (1C54). Reported on another thread that yesterday the substitute 158 was so rammed that only about 10 passengers managed to board at Oxford Road.

LNW-GW Joint said:
Well, there was one 185 as noted above (a single one), running 20 late (the conductor blamed a "slow taxi" for the driver's transfer).

185120 was on the 1742 Manchester Airport to Barrow earlier this evening (12L leaving Piccadilly). It was comfortably full by that time, so with further pick-ups at Oxford Road, Deansgate, and Salford Crescent I'm not sure that all intending passengers would have managed to board. The platform displays at Picc said front carriages for Barrow, the rear carriages would detach and terminate at Preston.
Assuming it was 185120 on the 1325 ex-Preston it presumably then did 1440 Manchester Airport - Preston and 1624 Preston - Manchester Airport.

EDIT: Having checked on RTT it seems the 1325 ex-Preston was terminated at Piccadilly, and the return started there (at 1501).

 

[TUC]

One way Northern could raise their game and placate the public in the degree of chaos this week is in being slicker in communication. For example, I was travelling from Sowerby Bridge to Manchester Airport yesterday, a journey which involved changing onto the 1407 from Salford Crescent to the airport. As I approached Salford, I could see from RTT that the train had not yet departed Preston (and was starting from there, the leg from Barrow having been cancelled). However there was no mention of any problem on Northern's website.

The train eventually arrived at Salford Crescent 20 minutes late. After it had arrived at Piccadilly and sat there for over five minutes, a clearly embarrassed guard apologied and advised passengers that he had just been told that the service was cancelled. Bearong in mind this is an airport service and so is particularly time sensitive for passengers, in these days of communications I do think there is more Northern can do to keep their staff advised of changes, and so enable them to support passengers.

EDIT: Just noticed that this is the same train that LNW-GW Joint and Bovverboy were also affected by in different ways!

 

[TUC]

One issue that was noticable in the incident above at Piccadilly was, even these days, the apparantly small number of passengers was were going online to find alternatives. When my train was cancelled at Piccadilly I quickly checked and found there was a TPE to the airport due to leave platform 10 at 1450 (around five minutes later). I left a crowded platform 13 of airport passengers and hopped onto an almost empty train at platofrm 10. It does also beg the question though why station staff at Piccadilly appeared to be not directing passengers to alternatives on other platforms?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One of the features of modern TOCs and their auto-announcements is that they rarely give helpful connection advice, which is especially important in disruption.
You are just left to your own devices and knowledge of which train to head for if yours is disrupted.
Nobody ever says "Next train to Manchester P3" or whatever.
At Lime St yesterday, there were multiple announcements about the cancellation of the 1000 to Warrington BQ and how sorry Northern were.
Immediately followed by an announcement that the 1000 to Warrington BQ was at P6. No regrets, or mention of change of plan, just another contradictory auto-announcement.
At Wigan, you could hear the platform audio PIS making half-announcements (next train, cancelled etc) before being reset, presumably by the station staff.
And always defaulting to the full See it Say it Sorted guff, or Luggage may be Destroyed announcements, which are not what people want to hear.

At Preston yesterday, I noticed a 185 parked in P4C on the way to Blackpool.
Returning to Preston later, RTT showed my 1325 Airport train leaving from 4C.
But the station screens and announcements said P6 (its normal platform when it comes from Barrow and doubles up).
So we all waited on P6, only to be told at the last minute to go to P4C, where the 185 had apparently sat for hours.
Where we waited for 30 minutes before anybody turned up to open the doors.
I should have known RTT was correct.
The staff can only work with the tools they have, but the tools seem woefully deficient at times like this,

At Salford Crescent, I changed for Victoria, just as the platform PA announced (manually) a 1-minute silence for the Arena bomb victims at 1430.
Cue the arrival of a noisy Pacer in the middle of this, with its clattering doors and accompanied by a long-winded station PA auto-announcement for stations to Leeds.
We then departed equally noisily before the silence was over, rather destroying the thoughtful impact of the silence event.
I'm not blaming anybody, but it just summed up a chaotic day.

 

[Bantamzen]

One issue that was noticable in the incident above at Piccadilly was, even these days, the apparantly small number of passengers was were going online to find alternatives. When my train was cancelled at Piccadilly I quickly checked and found there was a TPE to the airport due to leave platform 10 at 1450 (around five minutes later). I left a crowded platform 13 of airport passengers and hopped onto an almost empty train at platofrm 10. It does also beg the question though why station staff at Piccadilly appeared to be not directing passengers to alternatives on other platforms?

During times of disruption the first resource I turn to is RTT, to work out a) what sort of delay my planned service is really looking at (based on services around / in front of it) & b) If an alternative option is going to be quicker. And 99% of the time I'm ahead of the game, so hey don't be giving away secrets like that....

(Just as an aside, when the very first NR live WAP site went live I used it routinely, and on my regular commute many of my fellow passengers (and occasionally station staff) would keep an eye on me just in case I suddenly switched platforms after consulting the "guru" in my hand!)

Seriously though, Piccadilly is a bit of a law unto itself. From what I've observed in the past (and will be doing so again now the Leeds-Warrington direct has gone, gggrrrrr!) is that sometimes its better just to keep passengers on 13/14 rather than announce that another train is leaving slightly before he one due on those is due to arrive. When it has happened the resulting scrum has lead to some really quite dangerous conditions with potentially hundreds of people scrambling up the stairs to reach P1-P12. So there maybe be a facet of crowd management going on. Some savvy folk like yourself will start to learn if there are alternatives and quietly exit stage right.

 

[Loop & Link]

I’d always err on the side of caution with RTT, yes it’s great but using it during disruption is no good, it relies on trains being cancelled off in Trust.

JourneyCheck/CIS are usually far more reliable as that is fed by Darwin, with relies on information on trains delayed/cancelled in Tyrell/Nexus Alpha by the TOC, this gets paged out via email and is also linked to CIS so any input on theewould alter CIS/JourneyCheck/NRE, regrettably there have been trains missed off of course because of the sheer volume of delays/cancellations.

 

[Bovverboy]

Seriously though, Piccadilly is a bit of a law unto itself. From what I've observed in the past (and will be doing so again now the Leeds-Warrington direct has gone, gggrrrrr!) is that sometimes its better just to keep passengers on 13/14 rather than announce that another train is leaving slightly before he one due on those is due to arrive. When it has happened the resulting scrum has lead to some really quite dangerous conditions with potentially hundreds of people scrambling up the stairs to reach P1-P12. So there maybe be a facet of crowd management going on. Some savvy folk like yourself will start to learn if there are alternatives and quietly exit stage right.

On Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly there are information displays showing forthcoming departures from the entire station. So if people keep a watch on those displays and decide that there's an advantage in going for another train, there's nothing to stop them doing that. Don't forget, though, that some passengers will have operator-specific tickets and might not be able to use alternative services.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Just another anecdote from yesterday 22/5. I met someone in Manchester who related her journey from Chester. Departed thence on the 0852 on time. Due Manchester Piccadilly’s 0953. Was turfed out at what she described as an unmanned station in the middle of nowhere. I see from RTT that was terminated at Newton-le-Willows. Waited about 35 minutes, for what appears to have been the scheduled 1002 (at NLW) service Liverpool to Crewe. This eventually stopped at Deansgate at 1033, and showed no sign of further progress, so she alighted, and took a taxi to the 11 o’clock meeting. I had reached the meetig 20 minutes late, having been on the 0840 from London Euston, which was diverted via Northampton and arrived in Manchester 25 minutes late.

 

[Halish Railway]

Two things:
1. The 07:36 Skipton to Bradford Forster Square has been a 3 Carriage 144 for a couple of days now

2. The 07:48 has been a 321/322 for a couple of days

All of these should be 333's

 

[Adam0984]

07:36 booked for a 3 car 144 now. Can’t comment on the 07:48

 

[Greybeard33]

Would it not just be easier to re-time either of those services then, ie. change the 15:02 from Chester into the 14:58, or the 15:41 of Manchester into the 15:45? From the Chester end, I wouldn't have thought leaving 4 minutes earlier would affect things too much, since the Arriva Wales service leaves for Warrington and Manchester a good few minutes beforehand.

An earlier departure from Chester would increase the risk of conflict with a late running westbound service on the single line section between Mickle Trafford and Mouldsworth. At the other end the services have to slot into tight paths between Piccadilly and Edgeley Junction.

It must be challenging to timetable services on the Mid-Cheshire line, with its three single line sections and main line interfaces at either end. I think we should assume that the professional planners in Northern and Network Rail had good reasons for what they have done.

 

[Halish Railway]

07:36 booked for a 3 car 144 now. Can’t comment on the 07:48

It was running as a 321/322 before the change. A bit of a coincidence as it is no longer formed from the 07:11 off Bradford arrival

 

[Greybeard33]

At Preston yesterday, I noticed a 185 parked in P4C on the way to Blackpool.
Returning to Preston later, RTT showed my 1325 Airport train leaving from 4C.
But the station screens and announcements said P6 (its normal platform when it comes from Barrow and doubles up).
So we all waited on P6, only to be told at the last minute to go to P4C, where the 185 had apparently sat for hours.
Where we waited for 30 minutes before anybody turned up to open the doors.
I should have known RTT was correct.
The staff can only work with the tools they have, but the tools seem woefully deficient at times like this.

Yes, as mentioned upthread, the preceding (shortformed) 185 working (0841 Airport to Barrow) was terminated short at Preston at 1046 (57 late). The return working (1153 Barrow to Airport, scheduled 1325 from Preston P6) was cancelled between Barrow and Preston. The unit must have been shunted from P5 to P4C to wait out of the way until it was time for the 1325 departure.

 

[TUC]

Don't forget, though, that some passengers will have operator-specific tickets and might not be able to use alternative services.

I would hope, in the current chaos, Northern and TPE will be sensible about cross-acceptance.

Mind you, given that the aforementioned 1405 Salford Crescent-Airport Northern service was operated by a TPE trainset in full TPE livery, just how the average passenger should be expected to know they are on the wtong operator's train is a question in itself.

 

[northernchris]

07:36 booked for a 3 car 144 now. Can’t comment on the 07:48

Are there additional EMUs now in service during the AM peak? Given the chronic shortage of diesels having a 144 on Airedale line services is a strange choice

 

[capital12]

Are there additional EMUs now in service during the AM peak? Given the chronic shortage of diesels having a 144 on Airedale line services is a strange choice

Having been in Leeds earlier in the week for the first time in ages I was surprised at the number of 321/322s that are out all day now, I’m sure it used to be 2 on DON-LDS plus 1 on Airedale with the rest peak only. There seemed to be at least 4 out all day now on Airedale.

 

[Deerfold]

On Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly there are information displays showing forthcoming departures from the entire station. So if people keep a watch on those displays and decide that there's an advantage in going for another train, there's nothing to stop them doing that. Don't forget, though, that some passengers will have operator-specific tickets and might not be able to use alternative services.

But you need quite a lot of knowledge to know which service stops where.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

I also don't know if the platform numbers at Piccadilly on RTT for yesterday are correct but if they are a 150 which came off a Chester service worked a Stoke service as far as Macclesfield, where it was terminated.

Some (if not most) of the Chester services now leave the same platform as the Stoke services, I've noticed (in peak time) that the hourly Stoke via Congleton leaves at xx44 with a Chester train (a pacer from what I've seen) leaving from the same platform (was 5 when I saw it) at xx41. Yesterday the Chester train was delayed leaving MAN (not sure why) and the Stoke service (1844) therefore left 20L with a late voyager and pendolino right behind, it was put in P3 at MAC and cancelled from there. (also cancelling the 1958 SOT-MAN)

 

[northwichcat]

Some (if not most) of the Chester services now leave the same platform as the Stoke services, I've noticed (in peak time) that the hourly Stoke via Congleton leaves at xx44 with a Chester train (a pacer from what I've seen) leaving from the same platform (was 5 when I saw it) at xx41. Yesterday the Chester train was delayed leaving MAN (not sure why) and the Stoke service (1844) therefore left 20L with a late voyager and pendolino right behind, it was put in P3 at MAC and cancelled from there. (also cancelling the 1958 SOT-MAN)

The inbound Chester service got held at Plumley West signal box for 10 minutes and the delay wasn't recovered, meaning the Chester service left Manchester at almost 18:45 (almost 4 minutes behind schedule.) According to RTT the 1656 Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester Piccadilly went in to platform 8 and that was the unit which worked the delayed 18:44 to Stoke (which got terminated at Macclesfield)

It looks like the 18:44 is supposed to follow the Liverpool-Norwich on the slow lines to Stockport and Liverpool-Norwich was delayed so maybe they were waiting to be cleared to go or maybe a crew member was delayed?

 

[agbrs_Jack]

The inbound Chester service got held at Plumley West signal box for 10 minutes and the delay wasn't recovered, meaning the Chester service left Manchester at almost 18:45 (almost 4 minutes behind schedule.) According to RTT the 1656 Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester Piccadilly went in to platform 8 and that was the unit which worked the delayed 18:44 to Stoke (which got terminated at Macclesfield)

It looks like the 18:44 is supposed to follow the Liverpool-Norwich on the slow lines to Stockport and Liverpool-Norwich was delayed so maybe they were waiting to be cleared to go or maybe a crew member was delayed?

Probably, I doubt it would've been cancelled at MAC if it was just the XC needing to overtake, Pendolino probably caused that. In my experience I've noticed that they only go into P3 if a faster train is very close behind (or a little further if said train skips MAC) They only normally cancel at Macclesfield when 30+ late, the reason on RTT said 'train company decision' and it was 20L into MAC with a voyager very close.

 

[td97]

New timetable is now under investigation

Network Rail and Northern announced today they will be commissioning an independent report and recommendations into the preparations and processes leading up to the implementation of the recent timetable change. Customer groups, transport and Northern stakeholders will be invited to contribute to the report.

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....ndent-review-to-improve-service-for-customers

 

[Spartacus]

"May 2018 Timetable: for those who thought the problem with Operation Princess was that it didn't go far enough"!

 

[johntea]

Are there some 'express' services running on the Harrogate line now? I can't remember what service it was but the other day I saw one advertised as all stops until Horsforth but then from there straight to Leeds missing out Headingley and Burley Park, then I was on the 17:15 from Harrogate today which did just that, but maybe because it was a strike day (although the 08:59 from Leeds called at both!)

 

[Deerfold]

Are there some 'express' services running on the Harrogate line now? I can't remember what service it was but the other day I saw one advertised as all stops until Horsforth but then from there straight to Leeds missing out Headingley and Burley Park, then I was on the 17:15 from Harrogate today which did just that, but maybe because it was a strike day (although the 08:59 from Leeds called at both!)

It's been a special timetable all day today. Usually there's just a couple of morning peak trains which do miss those out (and also one which misses out Weston.

 

[Fylde Coaster]

New timetable is now under investigation

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....ndent-review-to-improve-service-for-customers

Hi Folks, I'm relatively new to the UK Rail forums so please bear with me. My question is regarding train time tabling and who is responsible for what?
Prior to the recent new May timetable debacle I assumed that the train operating companies put together the time tables.
Having heard/read varying news items about the recent problems it would appear the 1 entity (Network rail or TOC or?) are not solely responsible.
Is there a document/web-site or the like which explains who is responsible for the various elements which come together in the production of "our" train timetables.
Hoping somebody can point me in the right direction. Cheers.