Northern's Problems in the North West

[northernchris]

Does he respond to problems from his own Twitter feed? He did a Q and A where he responded to questions with a specific hashtag from the @northernassist account and signed off tweets with LS so you knew which ones he was responding to, if that's what you're thinking of.

Yep, Liam was posting from his personal twitter account

 

[theironroad]

Yep, Liam was posting from his personal twitter account

Which I've just looked up and it's locked/protected so can't see anything unless an approved follower. It says he's the 'Regional Director'.

 

[swanhill41]

This is the key issue. As jcollins regularly reminds us all franchises have a cap on staff pay budgets as part of the franchise agreement though the precise numbers are redacted. Anyone who thinks seriously about it will know that when you are introducing electrification and/or new rolling stock there will be a training period when the numbers of traincrew required to maintain the service will temporarily be higher than normal, say about 12-18 months. It is obvious from previous experience with Thameslink (under FCC) and more recently GWR that the DfT does not allow for this but prefers to assume that Rest Day Working will cover the shortfall. However for that to work out requires good IR: this is sadly lacking at many TOCs and certainly not helped by the DfT's current push for DOO nor by Northern's apparent reluctance to include driving cabs as part of the ongoing unit refurbishment programme. Yes the Network Rail delays on electrification have made things worse but had staffing levels been boosted then the size of the problem would undoubtedly be smaller. My suspicion is that we are looking at late 2019/early 2020 before things settle down at Northern.

All this is a very good argument for resisting full nationalisation: politicians and civil servants make for very poor decision makers in such areas but they rarely think beyond the date of the next general election. Effective railway planning and management requires much longer timescales.

2019/2020!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TBirdFrank]

Having seen a couple of quotes on the BBC news a few minutes ago Sumpter should be shown the door for gross abuse of his position, he certainly would have got a Form One in the old days for that sort of behaviour if not a summary sacking.

Ever since becoming an Arriva company trying to communicate with Northern has been a nightmare and even getting a reply seems to be an achievement - given the public subsidy this lot are getting he should be carpeted and told to change his ideas or ship out!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Isn't rather stupid that BPN drivers are working local services from Wigan to Liverpool when they have their own crew depots?

Blackpool crews will obviously have turns on the Blackpool-Liverpool services; by also working Wigan-Liverpool stoppers it keeps them up to date with station specific details at all intermediate stations should they ever be required to stop at them. Which they do on Sundays anyway though not everyone
works their Sundays. I'm not saying this is the right way to do things...

Presumably that's to guard against anti-competitive practices? i.e. stopping an outgoing franchise holder deliberately swelling the crew resource base towards the end of franchise thereby imposing a cost burden onto the next franchise holder?

Equally it helps to ensure that an outgoing franchise holder doesn't run down staffing levels and pocket the savings leaving the incoming franchisee with a huge headache on day one.

On the other hand you could argue that British Rail was better able to engage in long-term planning (e.g. major electrification and its implications) than TOCs on short-term franchises. A unified system would also be better able to switch resources - using Crewe TC to cover Preston work was a lot easier under BR than using VTWC men to cover NR work!

This is all fair comment though BR rarely received the levels of investment currently being seen.

I'd say it was an argument FOR full nationalisation. Politicians and civil servants make poor decision makers because of their short-termism, true, but a nationalised industry takes the micro-management away from the politicians and civil servants. A big part of the problem at the moment is the short-termism, with both franchises and in Government. That, and the fact that Government can blame the TOCs for all the failures and insulate themselves from criticism.

However, the (somewhat ironic) situation we have now under private sector operation is that the DfT (i.e. politicians and civil servants) has far more influence on the day-to-day running than it ever did under British Rail. (Decisions that today are taken by the DfT, were in the past taken by BR without the need to refer to civil servants or politicians.)

If renationalisation was likely to reproduce a semi-independent BR Board then it would make long-term planning easier though the issue might still resurface of the Treasury seeking to restrict investment funds. However I have no expectation that any future renationalisation would be along such lines. Rather I would expect the current excessive levels of micro-management, which sometimes border on ignorant interference, to simply get worse. Some politicians are already keen to stick their oar in, a new BR would surely see this exacerbated.

But getting back to the issue. Short-forms due to lack of stock are not Northern's fault, but perhaps they'd have been better off with a gradual transfer to electric traction rather than the big bang. But cancellations due to lack of staff IS Northern's fault. If the electrification had been completed the lack of staff would have been more, not less, pronounced: more drivers and guards would need to be off route and traction learning, causing a bigger shortfall in staff.

One issue that has only been touched on briefly is the fact that we are now into the summer period of leave meaning that leave is taken in two week blocks rather than just one. During single weeks of leave many staff will happily work either the weekend before or after but during two week blocks they are completely unavailable during the middle weekend. This will make any staff shortage that may exist even worse though I very much doubt that it is anywhere near explaining the size of the current mess. Suffice to say that if Preston-Blackpool had re-opened as originally scheduled things would have been at least a little less chaotic.

I'll repeat that a better IR climate would help immeasurably.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Blackpool carriage sidings not finished, no trains stabled there.

That's the first hint I've seen of infrastructure problems on the new construction.
They can still use the Leyland sidings of course.
The early Euston Voyager will come back when the night-time engineering work finishes, which currently wipes out the first few departures.

 

[morgainelive]

I really don't get their thinking today the 09.05 from Preston to airport is 2 carriages it's the only train to Manchester as there's so much bustitution going on and using a 2 car dmu under the wires. Thankfully 2 extra cars were added to ease the full 2 car. Diagramming sense would be use 4 car emu preston to Airport then shuttle a train Preston to Blackpool may be it might not work but who knows unless the wires are not working. I can see why they are getting criticised for their poor service level this week can't blame it all on network rail.

 

[td97]

Diagramming sense would be use 4 car emu preston to Airport then shuttle a train Preston to Blackpool may be it might not work but who knows unless the wires are not working. I can see why they are getting criticised for their poor service level this week can't blame it all on network rail.

a) the wires are not yet tested or live (edit: for Preston-Blackpool)
b) electric services will commence in 3 weeks at the timetable change

 

[Bovverboy]

morgainelive said: ↑
Diagramming sense would be use 4 car emu preston to Airport then shuttle a train Preston to Blackpool may be it might not work but who knows unless the wires are not working. I can see why they are getting criticised for their poor service level this week can't blame it all on network rail.

a) the wires are not yet tested or live
b) electric services will commence in 3 weeks at the timetable change

They're certainly tested and live between Preston and Manchester Airport, and I think morgainelive was implying use of a DMU on Preston - Blackpool.

 

[northwichcat]

Having seen a couple of quotes on the BBC news a few minutes ago Sumpter should be shown the door for gross abuse of his position, he certainly would have got a Form One in the old days for that sort of behaviour if not a summary sacking.

Ever since becoming an Arriva company trying to communicate with Northern has been a nightmare and even getting a reply seems to be an achievement - given the public subsidy this lot are getting he should be carpeted and told to change his ideas or ship out!

I'm sure Northern won't want to sack him now, even if they think he's committed a sackable offence given there's a chance the May timetable recast doesn't go smoothly and passengers start complaining - if that happens it would be good PR if they then replace a regional director.

 

[td97]

They're certainly tested and live between Preston and Manchester Airport, and I think morgainelive was implying use of a DMU on Preston - Blackpool.

Apologies for my original misunderstanding, but
c) People want a through service to Manchester without the hassle of having to change at Preston.
d) It also would pose an issue gaining the relevant Preston-Manchester EMU paths via Chat Moss before the timetable change.

But obviously the issues with double units being used for training runs whilst a Pacer is used in passenger service is unacceptable.

 

[Bertie the bus]

morgainelive is talking about the service today. It runs via Chat Moss as the Bolton line is closed.

 

[northwichcat]

morgainelive is talking about the service today. It runs via Chat Moss as the Bolton line is closed.

Interestingly this weekend and next weekend Wigan Wallgate has an express service via Chat Moss to Manchester (on top of the usual TPE service from North Western) due to no trains being able to operate via Salford Crescent.

 

[Mathew S]

Interestingly this weekend and next weekend Wigan Wallgate has an express service via Chat Moss to Manchester (on top of the usual TPE service from North Western) due to no trains being able to operate via Salford Crescent.

That's been the case since the regular weekend blockades began in - if I remember correctly - January. It's the only way to keep Wigan-Manchester open.

 

[Chris125]

Four coach multipule units being on training duties when the passenger service has just two coaches.

Why do they need to use a Northern unit at all? Surely they hire something, like the Class 50 on route learning duties around Derby.

 

[Eccles1983]

Why do they need to use a Northern unit at all? Surely they hire something, like the Class 50 on route learning duties around Derby.

So, you want drivers going over a route and working out braking points on units that they dont sign, and wont ever sign.

This added to the cost of hiring said units and the drivers of said unit being route conducted, which means less people in the cab actually learning the route- which is the entire point of the exercise.

Yep, cant see why Northern have done what they did.....

 

[childwallblues]

Why do they need to use a Northern unit at all? Surely they hire something, like the Class 50 on route learning duties around Derby.

Too many enthusiasts on board?

 

[swanhill41]

The problems are;
Arriva group...Tight fisted accountants
Staff...Lack of
Management...Not railwaymen
PR...Lack of ,tied in not railwaymen
I think you will find that this summary broadly correct ?

 

[LeylandLen]

I see, to my surprise, there are 2 return trains from Preston via Clitheroe today, a Sunday, to Hellifield . The 2nd and last return leaves Hellifield at 1607 which does not allow much time should you want a day out in the Dales, maybe to Ribblehead. I wish the service could run every day, not just a Sunday.It seems from timetable change on 20th May there is only 1 return , leaving Hellifield for BPN at 2047 !
I assume its down to the availability of DMUS. Will it be a better service in years to come when Northern gets more trains ?

 

[Starmill]

Too many enthusiasts on board?

Hopefully not if it's on route learning duty?

 

[158756]

Why do they need to use a Northern unit at all? Surely they hire something, like the Class 50 on route learning duties around Derby.

I'm not an expert on this, but are there currently any drivers who could drive a locomotive to Blackpool, outside a possession? Do the instructor or trainee need to be able to drive the train?

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not an expert on this, but are there currently any drivers who could drive a locomotive to Blackpool, outside a possession? Do the instructor or trainee need to be able to drive the train?

Well depending on the number of spaces in the cab, I suppose you could find someone who can drive the traction, then have someone who knows the route conduct him over it, and then have a third person in the cab for route learning!
If they actually all fitted.

 

[Bungle965]

Lakes line once again suffering today with numerous services being cancelled and being replaced by Bertie the Bus.
Sam

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Anyway, what's all this tosh about Unions v. TOC about DOO? I'm pretty sure that RSSB found that, per alighting / boarding passenger, they were more likely to be injured / killed interacting with a train that had a conductor, rather than one that didn't? The Unions are running out of things to inflate into reasons for a strike so are waging a battle against common sense, in my view. I will attempt to find said research ...

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The problems are;
Arriva group...Tight fisted accountants
Staff...Lack of
Management...Not railwaymen
PR...Lack of ,tied in not railwaymen
I think you will find that this summary broadly correct ?

Missing one - bullet headed inflexible union types (not a cause, but a contributory factor).

 

[Robertj21a]

The problems are;
Arriva group...Tight fisted accountants
Staff...Lack of
Management...Not railwaymen
PR...Lack of ,tied in not railwaymen
I think you will find that this summary broadly correct ?

What have these 'tight fisted accountants' done/not done ?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Anyway, what's all this tosh about Unions v. TOC about DOO? I'm pretty sure that RSSB found that, per alighting / boarding passenger, they were more likely to be injured / killed interacting with a train that had a conductor, rather than one that didn't? The Unions are running out of things to inflate into reasons for a strike so are waging a battle against common sense, in my view. I will attempt to find said research ...

Do let us know what you find. In the meantime consider that those who keep track of such things often tell us here that 80% of PTI incidents which require investiagtion by the RAIB involve DOO services in spite of forming less than 40% of all services operated. Even allowing for subjective use of statistics this tells a story all by itself and that's before you allow for the greater likelihood of such incidents going unreported when single-crewed services are involved. It's an issue that is more complicated than many are prepared to admit.

 

[northwichcat]

I see the 03:38 Liverpool to Manchester Airport service is cancelled tomorrow morning, no mention of any replacement bus being organised and the following train almost 2 hours later - I can see some people missing check-in for the early departures from the airport.

 

[Red Devil]

Plenty of jobs uncovered over the next few days. Expect more of the same regarding cancellations etc this coming week.

 

[hwl]

Anyway, what's all this tosh about Unions v. TOC about DOO? I'm pretty sure that RSSB found that, per alighting / boarding passenger, they were more likely to be injured / killed interacting with a train that had a conductor, rather than one that didn't? The Unions are running out of things to inflate into reasons for a strike so are waging a battle against common sense, in my view. I will attempt to find said research ...

Part of it included a before and after comparison on London Overground when the NLL went from Guard (3 car 378s) to DOO (and 4 car 378s - extra car added) and the incident rate fell in raw terms even before the increased passenger numbers and 25% more doors were factored in to provide lower per passenger and per door incident rates.