Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[MG11]

Yes that's also a very good point thinking about it. I suppose NXEC were working on the 'Eureka' timetable which did shake things up and East Coast then had to deliver but it was nothing like on the scale of what we're supposed to be seeing in the coming year or two and all that whilst also introducing a brand new fleet of trains.

I've been wondering about that, Virgin are fully prepared to recieve (well they technically already have) a brand new fleet and have strategies in place to introduce them in to service smoothly. How would an emergency franchise cope with it?

 

[AlexNL]

How would an emergency franchise cope with it?

Wouldn't the people involved in those preparations be TUPEd over to the new operator, who can then carry on with the planned introduction of the new fleet?

Given that the rolling stock to be used is determined by DfT, there's no reason why a new operator would suddenly want to introduce a completely different fleet (like what's happening with the 707s).

 

[ainsworth74]

Wouldn't the people involved in those preparations be TUPEd over to the new operator, who can then carry on with the planned introduction of the new fleet?

Yes broadly. I've never quite been able to pin down at what level of management people wouldn't be TUPEd over to a new franchise but the vast majority of staff that currently work for VTEC would transfer to a new operator.

The issue would be with the strategic level I would imagine. Plus new management would quite possibly have new ideas on how they wanted things done as well as needing time to get up to speed. Something which, in part at least, might be avoided by having the consultants who would for the Operator of Last Resort getting some familiarity with the company prior to any possible transfer.

 

[MG11]

Wouldn't the people involved in those preparations be TUPEd over to the new operator, who can then carry on with the planned introduction of the new fleet?

Given that the rolling stock to be used is determined by DfT, there's no reason why a new operator would suddenly want to introduce a completely different fleet (like what's happening with the 707s).

I think it would be the same people on the ground yes but wouldn't the people ruling from the top be different?

 

[700007]

I think it would be the same people on the ground yes but wouldn't the people ruling from the top be different?

Yes but that's the case with any operator change. There may be new priorities, commitments and agreements in place that will need tending to. That applies here.

 

[pt_mad]

Yes broadly. I've never quite been able to pin down at what level of management people wouldn't be TUPEd over to a new franchise but the vast majority of staff that currently work for VTEC would transfer to a new operator.

The issue would be with the strategic level I would imagine. Plus new management would quite possibly have new ideas on how they wanted things done as well as needing time to get up to speed. Something which, in part at least, might be avoided by having the consultants who would for the Operator of Last Resort getting some familiarity with the company prior to any possible transfer.

Seems board level and heads of departments are quite often finished. And some others tupe over but disappear from the organisation shortly after with no real explaination.

Stands to reason if a management is systematic with a particular organisation and the organisation is to be finished then that management will be finished too.

 

[SPADTrap]

I think this sort of thing is why they lost the franchise.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

I think this sort of thing is why they lost the franchise.

Actually I would differ with you there. I have been no fan of Virgin's marketing at all on the East Coast (witness other posts in this thread) but as a member of the generation maligned for eating avocados rather than saving £1m for a deposit on a shoebox etc. this worked for me. It's tongue-in-cheek (obviously) but implies they are on our side and think it was a cock up too. That's good marketing. If I hadn't managed to get one of the railcards (luckily i did) I would be going down to a Virgin ticket office one lunch time with my 39p avocado and booking as many trips as I could.

Obviously there are the cynical reasons why they are doing this - cashflow for the franchise etc. - but good work on turning a bad PR day for the industry generally into a good one for them.

 

[SPADTrap]

Actually I would differ with you there. I have been no fan of Virgin's marketing at all on the East Coast (witness other posts in this thread) but as a member of the generation maligned for eating avocados rather than saving £1m for a deposit on a shoebox etc. this worked for me. It's tongue-in-cheek (obviously) but implies they are on our side and think it was a cock up too. That's good marketing. If I hadn't managed to get one of the railcards (luckily i did) I would be going down to a Virgin ticket office one lunch time with my 39p avocado and booking as many trips as I could.

Obviously there are the cynical reasons why they are doing this - cashflow for the franchise etc. - but good work on turning a bad PR day for the industry generally into a good one for them.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about. What cock up? On your side about what? Any saving is good but I had to laugh at this.

Tickets and passes and avocados, please!

 

[43096]

I think this sort of thing is why they lost the franchise.

I think this sort of post demonstrates you haven't understood the issues.

 

[ModernRailways]

I think this sort of thing is why they lost the franchise.

This is a Virgin Trains West Coast thing. It has nothing to do with VTEC and is not valid on VTEC services, it's only valid on VTWC services within the next week or so and tickets must be purchased from the ticket office.

 

[The Ham]

I literally have no idea what you're talking about. What cock up? On your side about what? Any saving is good but I had to laugh at this.

Tickets and passes and avocados, please!

The website for the 26-30's rail card couldn't cope with the demand (the cock up referred to).

It's fairy common for older people to say "in our day we lived on beans on toast for 2 weeks rather than prior food so that we could save up or deposit." or "we had to sit on orange creates when we first brought our house as by not buying a sofa meant that we had the deposit due hour house" or "Why are you eating avocado when you should be saving for your deposit?". Totally missing the point that even if you saved £30 a month on food to get to the point that you had £20,000 for a deposit would take nearly 56 years. Likewise not spending circa £1,000 on furniture (probably mostly second hand) when renting (for say 5 years) would make it entirely possible to have a deposit.

Yes, there's times when younger people probably do appear to waste more money than the older generations and by having no fun could shorten the time they would have to rent for. However chances are it wouldn't make a big difference. Not when in the last 8 years the house I live in has nearly doubled in value.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes broadly. I've never quite been able to pin down at what level of management people wouldn't be TUPEd over to a new franchise but the vast majority of staff that currently work for VTEC would transfer to a new operator.

The issue would be with the strategic level I would imagine. Plus new management would quite possibly have new ideas on how they wanted things done as well as needing time to get up to speed. Something which, in part at least, might be avoided by having the consultants who would for the Operator of Last Resort getting some familiarity with the company prior to any possible transfer.

I believe TUPE applies to anybody who is an employee, but not a director of the business.

 

[SPADTrap]

The website for the 26-30's rail card couldn't cope with the demand (the cock up referred to).

It's fairy common for older people to say "in our day we lived on beans on toast for 2 weeks rather than prior food so that we could save up or deposit." or "we had to sit on orange creates when we first brought our house as by not buying a sofa meant that we had the deposit due hour house" or "Why are you eating avocado when you should be saving for your deposit?". Totally missing the point that even if you saved £30 a month on food to get to the point that you had £20,000 for a deposit would take nearly 56 years. Likewise not spending circa £1,000 on furniture (probably mostly second hand) when renting (for say 5 years) would make it entirely possible to have a deposit.

Yes, there's times when younger people probably do appear to waste more money than the older generations and by having no fun could shorten the time they would have to rent for. However chances are it wouldn't make a big difference. Not when in the last 8 years the house I live in has nearly doubled in value.

Oh I see what was meant now. My apologies.

 

[SPADTrap]

This is a Virgin Trains West Coast thing. It has nothing to do with VTEC and is not valid on VTEC services, it's only valid on VTWC services within the next week or so and tickets must be purchased from the ticket office.

Not sure if that makes it better or worse!

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Oh I see what was meant now. My apologies.

Oh no, you have mine. I should have made that clearer! Having spent a day wading through Twitter discussion of the thing I kind of forgot that others may not have had the same awareness of it. Apologies. But thanks to The Ham for clearing it up!

 

[SPADTrap]

Oh no, you have mine. I should have made that clearer! Having spent a day wading through Twitter discussion of the thing I kind of forgot that others may not have had the same awareness of it. Apologies. But thanks to The Ham for clearing it up!

Yeah I have done the same and realised why I avoided twitter in the first place haha. As a 26 year old consider me educated and feeling your pain.

 

[SaveECRewards]

If anyone wants to contribute to the government transport committee consultation on the ICEC franchise today is the last day.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...city-east-coast-rail-franchise-inquiry-17-19/

Seeing the talk about #Avocard above just shows that VTEC/VTWC really need to sort out their branding, they have had three years to do it. The either have to appear seamless to the customer or be obviously different. Stagecoach own virgintrainswestcoast.com why don't they use it and make virgintrains.co.uk a landing page? People get confused all the time because two separate franchises use the same branding. They had three years to sort out the confusion. I'm not sure what it gains for them.

 

[pt_mad]

Word has it over on the West Coast that LNR is about to launch a very intensive ad campaign which seeks to place LNR as a viable and credible alternative to the main west coast operator. Possibly pushing a fair pricing structure, free fast ontrain WiFi, and that more seats, cleaner presentation and new trains are to follow.

Straight talking branding might well go down better in today's climate than the hyper, super smile stuff Virgin markets on both routes.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Word has it over on the West Coast that LNR is about to launch a very intensive ad campaign which seeks to place LNR as a viable and credible alternative to the main west coast operator. Through pushing a fair pricing structure, free super fast WiFi, and that more seats and new trains are to follow.

Straight talking branding might well go down better in today's climate than the hyper, super smile stuff Virgin markets on both routes.

On the subject of marketing, I've been told by a VTEC guard that they're currently running a campaign that's known internally as 'TOC WARS' although fortunately that is not used on any customer facing materials. The idea is to hand out 30% discount codes at VTEC operated stations where their competitors also operate from.

The offer page has this nice bit of blurb which really fits in with the RDG 'Parnership Railway':

You don’t wanna do it like that, you wanna do it like this! We want you to travel with us next time... and we hope this tempting offer will do the trick.

Two problems:
1. Those using alternatives to VTEC tend to be price sensitive (or on a route where the competitor has a better frequency) so they're likely to revert back to their existing preferred operator once the discount is used up
2. Railcard holders don't get any additional discount so 30% off is worse than a railcard discount. I've seen many occasions when railcard holders have tweeted in their disappointment when they get a discount code that's no use to them. Perhaps they should offer railcard holders 40% off rather than 30%.

 

[pt_mad]

I suppose the days of being happy and willing to pay quite a bit more just to travel on a prestigious Virgin service are probably over. People seem to be searching for good value and VT don't have the flagship reputation they once had.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't know if it also applies to VTEC, but VTWC station auto-announcers now explicitly advertise "delicious hot and cold refreshments" for Virgin departures.
That's at least something LNWR can't do (although they could go on about the free Wi-Fi which VTWC doesn't have).

 

[Pete_uk]

Excuse me, but who are LNR and are they proposing taking the franchise over?

 

[700007]

Excuse me, but who are LNR and are they proposing taking the franchise over?

LNR or LNWR is London Northwestern Railway, the operator of the West Midlands franchise. They started in December 2017 having replaced London Midland. They operate the class 350 stopping trains up and down the WCML and also to Birmingham. It is that 'green' train.

 

[Domh245]

the operator of the West Midlands franchise

LNR are a sub-brand of West Midlands Trains, who are the new operator of the West Midlands franchise, in much the same way as Great Northern is a sub-brand of Govia Thameslink Railway. WMT also have their other brand, West Midlands Railway, which operate the 'local' services around Birmingham and the West Midlands.

 

[DimTim]

Are we any nearer finding out a way forward?​

Grayling made his statement 5 February & Stagecoach could only continue the franchise in current form ‘a very small number of months & no more’.
Almost 2 months elapsed - small number - & not seen any further update

When is announcement expected?

 

[3141]

Are we any nearer finding out a way forward?​

Grayling made his statement 5 February & Stagecoach could only continue the franchise in current form ‘a very small number of months & no more’.
Almost 2 months elapsed - small number - & not seen any further update

When is announcement expected?

As I understand it, they will continue until the "parent company guarantee" - finance provided by Stagecoach (and Virgin, I suppose) to support VTEC runs out. At the time of the 5 Feb statement, that was expected to be only a small number of months ahead. When it actually does run out will depend on trading conditions for VTEC. But in the meantime there will have been discussions between DfT and VTEC, and between DfT and the consultants who would take over if necessary, to work out a way forward.

 

[Steddenm]

Overheard on an VTEC sevice yesterday that the Virgin Trains decals on the HSTs and 225s doors is to be removed “urgently” and that they hope it’s direct controlled again (al a East Coast). Also there are 1,500 staff taking them to tribunal. Not sure how true that is though.

 

[Chrism20]

1500 is the equivalent to half the workforce. If it’s true it’s impressive that it’s been kept quiet.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have my ear to the ground regarding this and haven't heard anything. Not even a peep since the news was first announced they'd be handing the franchise back.