May 2018 timetable changes

[agbrs_Jack]

Don't forget the time that would be lost slowing for and then starting from Congleton too, it isn't just about shifting dwell time about. I have no idea what the line speed is through there (and given the time of night I can't be bothered to check!) but I seem to recall it is rather high. Having a quick look through RTT for a standard weekday off-peak, unless you started removing engineering minutes and other fiddles I don't think you could make it fit unless you had some breathing space on the approach to Stockport / Manchester northwards, and through Stoke and beyond southward.

What may be worth noting is that from May Macclesfield is added as a stop to the Manchester-Bristols as standard.

So all XC will stop at MAC after 20/05?
XC at Congleton can be done, it's just the TOCs don't care and don't want to.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

If they can manage to call at both here http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C76425/2018/05/29/advanced
They why not others?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

So all XC will stop at MAC after 20/05?
XC at Congleton can be done, it's just the TOCs don't care and don't want to.

Everything except the 1727 ex-Manchester Monday-Saturday, and the 1827 ex-Manchester on Saturday only by the looks of it. Achieved it seems by using existing pathing time of the northbound services and departing Manchester at xx05 vice xx07 southbound, at least in the hour I am looking at.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Everything except the 1727 ex-Manchester Monday-Saturday, and the 1827 ex-Manchester on Saturday only by the looks of it. Achieved it seems by using existing pathing time of the northbound services and departing Manchester at xx05 vice xx07 southbound, at least in the hour I am looking at.

The Southbound ones that call at Congleton don't call at MAC, only the 0557 BHM-MAN (SuX) calls at both.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If they can manage to call at both here http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C76425/2018/05/29/advanced
They why not others?

There's the xx20 Euston-Manchester right up behind it (i.e. 3 minutes, which I will guess is the headway) from departure from Macclesfield onwards, which doesn't exist for the 0557 departure but does off-peak once you settle into the clockface timetable.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

There's the xx20 Euston-Manchester right up behind it (i.e. 3 minutes, which I will guess is the headway) from departure from Macclesfield onwards, which doesn't exist for the 0557 departure but does off-peak once you settle into the clockface timetable.

Congleton is doomed to be abandoned...

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Everything except the 1727 ex-Manchester Monday-Saturday, and the 1827 ex-Manchester on Saturday only by the looks of it. Achieved it seems by using existing pathing time of the northbound services and departing Manchester at xx05 vice xx07 southbound, at least in the hour I am looking at.

There's loads of time sitting at Birmingham NS, leave a minute or 2 early to fit it in! (Also drop Wolverhampton in peak as there are 8 tph excluding XC BHM-WVH)

Proposed: 20 tpd CNG-MAN (15 CNG-BPN)
Achieved: 5 tpd CNG-MAN (and with worse timings than now - thanks HTC and LVM)

 

[davehsug]

This is ridiculous:
Attached are 2 pictures; Stoke Line Sunday services and Crewe Line Sunday services. Also attached is a nice table I've made.
I'm not seeing a reason why Northern can't run SOT-MAN hourly on a Sunday.

Won't that improve when (or if), the Sunday Stoke-Blackpool service begins?

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Won't that improve when (or if), the Sunday Stoke-Blackpool service begins?

Yes, and that *Should* happen in December, however it was supposed to happen in May and SOT-MAN hourly on Sundays should've happened years ago...

Still no reason why they can't do it in May (hourly CNG-MAN) that I'm seeing.

 

[davehsug]

Yes, and that *Should* happen in December, however it was supposed to happen in May and SOT-MAN hourly on Sundays should've happened years ago...

Still no reason why they can't do it in May (hourly CNG-MAN) that I'm seeing.

I agree of course. I'm afraid you're a victim of the whole Stoke problem. Not quite the West Midlands, not quite the North West. Instead of being a part of both, it's largely ignored by both regional operators. Luckily, as a main station we have decent services from national operators, but that doesn't help you. Our region has awful public transport. I don't think there's even a direct bus fron Hanley to Congleton anymore?

 

[agbrs_Jack]

I believe there is a direct bus but it takes close to an hour, if not over an hour, and in Congleton, most people want to go to Manchester, Stoke is generally used for connections to Birmingham and London, Few bother travelling on Sundays currently though as it's not worth it due to the lack of flexibility...

 

[Segedunum]

Northern's revised timetable seems to be up.

Some key points taken from my peruse.

-York-Blackpool North curtailed to Leeds-Preston except on Sundays where it runs through York-Blackpool.
-Stopping service from York-Leeds SuX now runs TO Huddersfield via Bradford and FROM Manchester Victoria
-No Chester or Manchester Airport service from Leeds, but Southport still in there.
-Leeds-Lincoln is running but serves as the stopper from Sheffield-Lincoln. No additional Off Peak to Retford.
-No extra Harrogate services
-No extra Tyne Valley services
-Sporadic extra Esk Valley services (A Hexham-Danby and Hexham-Battersby)
-Manchester to Buckshaw stopper introduced.
-Leyland gains direct Airport service on Blackpool-Airport via Wigan EMU service.
-Gathurst and Meols Cop 2tph all day.
-Atherton Line goes to 3tph
-Ellemere Port has a 0510 service from Lime Street, runs to Helsby and back then to Warrington. 1850 from Helsby, 1910 back to Manchester. No more afternoon services.
-Denton Flyer is now Saturdays 0945 from Stockport.

And this rather odd through working.

1551 Leeds-Barrow via Accrington http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22791/2018/06/06/advanced

From looking at Manchester- an interesting one too- 0536 Manchester Airport to Buckshaw Parkway via the Ordsall Chord into Victoria and reverse! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y26402/2018/06/13/advanced

 

[northwichcat]

Northern's revised timetable seems to be up.

Some key points taken from my peruse.

-York-Blackpool North curtailed to Leeds-Preston except on Sundays where it runs through York-Blackpool.
-Stopping service from York-Leeds SuX now runs TO Huddersfield via Bradford and FROM Manchester Victoria
-No Chester or Manchester Airport service from Leeds, but Southport still in there.
-Leeds-Lincoln is running but serves as the stopper from Sheffield-Lincoln. No additional Off Peak to Retford.
-No extra Harrogate services
-No extra Tyne Valley services
-Sporadic extra Esk Valley services (A Hexham-Danby and Hexham-Battersby)
-Manchester to Buckshaw stopper introduced.
-Leyland gains direct Airport service on Blackpool-Airport via Wigan EMU service.
-Gathurst and Meols Cop 2tph all day.
-Atherton Line goes to 3tph
-Ellemere Port has a 0510 service from Lime Street, runs to Helsby and back then to Warrington. 1850 from Helsby, 1910 back to Manchester. No more afternoon services.
-Denton Flyer is now Saturdays 0945 from Stockport.

And this rather odd through working.

1551 Leeds-Barrow via Accrington http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22791/2018/06/06/advanced

From looking at Manchester- an interesting one too- 0536 Manchester Airport to Buckshaw Parkway via the Ordsall Chord into Victoria and reverse! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y26402/2018/06/13/advanced

The Northern one is so special it has it's own thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-timetable-plan-for-may-2018.147558/

 

[Bletchleyite]

-Denton Flyer is now Saturdays 0945 from Stockport.

They should see if they could get it to around 1130 then it will make a whacking profit in people going to Stalybridge for pie, peas and a pint.

 

[Anvil1984]

.
-No extra Tyne Valley services
-Sporadic extra Esk Valley services (A Hexham-Danby and Hexham-Battersby)

Whilst not going to the planned half hourly service (and in fairness to Northern they said that was one of the improvements put back) it is a bit harsh to say there are no extra services. There 3 extra service each way to plug gaps

Carlisle to Newcastle goes from 15tpd to 18tpd with extra morning services and late evening
Likewise Newcastle to Carlisle goes from 15tpd to 18tpd with extra trains in the morning, early and late evening

The Hexham terminators stay at 14tpd westbound and 15tpd eastbound

The Chathill morning service extends through to Prudhoe instead of terminating at Newcastle

HOWEVER there is a loss of services to the Metrocentre from 4tph to 3tph. Its not a big of a loss as people may think as the Newcastle - Metrocentre shuttles carry mostly thin air (the ones from Durham coast can carry a fair few shoppers mind)

 

[The Planner]

There's loads of time sitting at Birmingham NS, leave a minute or 2 early to fit it in! (Also drop Wolverhampton in peak as there are 8 tph excluding XC BHM-WVH)

Proposed: 20 tpd CNG-MAN (15 CNG-BPN)
Achieved: 5 tpd CNG-MAN (and with worse timings than now - thanks HTC and LVM)

In which XC trains are you expecting Congleton to be a stop in? You will need at least 3-3½ minutes for a stop there. You cannot put it in the northbound services from Bristol as it would catch the ATW in front of it before Wolverhampton and you would end up pretty much where you are now in the timetable and the Virgin to Manchester catches you before Cheadle Hulme. You cannot put it in the southbound one to Bristol either as the Virgin catches it up as mentioned already. Same applies with the Bournemouth services, you would get another Virgin catching you up by Stoke. You also need to consider the trade off, XC want a much quicker journey time from Birmingham to Manchester, adding Congleton does not achieve that. It is also down to what people want XC to be, a fast inter city service or stop at any small or medium shack that shouts for it such as Kenilworth, Worcestershire Parkway, Didcot etc...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Merseyrail times have gone up on RTT, but just for the week up to Friday 25 May.
No sign of the timetable for the Lime St long blockade (starts on 2 June).

 

[Senex]

In which XC trains are you expecting Congleton to be a stop in? You will need at least 3-3½ minutes for a stop there. ... You also need to consider the trade off, XC want a much quicker journey time from Birmingham to Manchester, adding Congleton does not achieve that. It is also down to what people want XC to be, a fast inter city service or stop at any small or medium shack that shouts for it such as Kenilworth, Worcestershire Parkway, Didcot etc...

Exactly the same problem that TPE have, isn't it? Should at least some of its trains be genuine fast inter-city services, or should they really be stopping at the places like Lea Green, Newton-le-Willows, Stalybridge, Dewsbury, Garforth, Thirsk etc ... Both XC and TPE have come to resemble much more what the Germans used to label IR services (with a trend almost to RE services) than to provide fast links betwen major centres. What do people want, and how far will longer-distance full-fare-payers be put off using trains that stop at any small or medium shack and opt for their BMWs instead?

 

[323235]

In which XC trains are you expecting Congleton to be a stop in? You will need at least 3-3½ minutes for a stop there. You cannot put it in the northbound services from Bristol as it would catch the ATW in front of it before Wolverhampton and you would end up pretty much where you are now in the timetable and the Virgin to Manchester catches you before Cheadle Hulme. You cannot put it in the southbound one to Bristol either as the Virgin catches it up as mentioned already. Same applies with the Bournemouth services, you would get another Virgin catching you up by Stoke. You also need to consider the trade off, XC want a much quicker journey time from Birmingham to Manchester, adding Congleton does not achieve that. It is also down to what people want XC to be, a fast inter city service or stop at any small or medium shack that shouts for it such as Kenilworth, Worcestershire Parkway, Didcot etc...

I don't think there is a compelling reason to have XC call at Congleton outside the peaks when they are pricing people off due to lack of capacity but neither is there justification for taking away much needed commuter services.

 

[paulravuslante]

TfL Rail take over the GWR PAD - HAY, Heathrow Connect and Heathrow T123 - T4 shuttles.

PAD - HAY use 9Txx/9Pxx headcodes and timetable similar to present one (still omitting Hanwell).
Former Heathrow Connect departures use same headcodes and timetable similar to present one, with all trains reverting to operating to / from T4. Sunday timetable operates half hourly for the whole day (still omitting West Ealing and Hanwell).

T4 shuttles use 9Hxx headcodes in both directions, running half hourly to provide a 15 min frequency with the former Heathrow Connect services between T123 and T4.

 

[frodshamfella]

Northern's revised timetable seems to be up.

Some key points taken from my peruse.

-York-Blackpool North curtailed to Leeds-Preston except on Sundays where it runs through York-Blackpool.
-Stopping service from York-Leeds SuX now runs TO Huddersfield via Bradford and FROM Manchester Victoria
-No Chester or Manchester Airport service from Leeds, but Southport still in there.
-Leeds-Lincoln is running but serves as the stopper from Sheffield-Lincoln. No additional Off Peak to Retford.
-No extra Harrogate services
-No extra Tyne Valley services
-Sporadic extra Esk Valley services (A Hexham-Danby and Hexham-Battersby)
-Manchester to Buckshaw stopper introduced.
-Leyland gains direct Airport service on Blackpool-Airport via Wigan EMU service.
-Gathurst and Meols Cop 2tph all day.
-Atherton Line goes to 3tph
-Ellemere Port has a 0510 service from Lime Street, runs to Helsby and back then to Warrington. 1850 from Helsby, 1910 back to Manchester. No more afternoon services.
-Denton Flyer is now Saturdays 0945 from Stockport.

And this rather odd through working.

1551 Leeds-Barrow via Accrington http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22791/2018/06/06/advanced

From looking at Manchester- an interesting one too- 0536 Manchester Airport to Buckshaw Parkway via the Ordsall Chord into Victoria and reverse! http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y26402/2018/06/13/advanced

Looks like the Ellesmere Port service is worse, not addressing increased housing in Ince / Elton. There are a few regulars I know who use the afternoon services will be disappointed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I passed a class 323 this morning outside Preston.
From RTT it appeared to be on an Allerton-Preston-St Helens-Preston-Huyton cycle.
Presumably crew training for May 20.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I can't help but notice those timings are awfully slack. London to Warrington in well over two hours, compared with the 103 minutes taken by the London-Scotlands. Even with a stop in at Rugby, that seems awfully slow.

Regrettably the 06:46 gets right up the 06:43's backside and sits behind it at Milton Keynes before also following a 75mph Intermodal from Crewe Coal Yard to Warrington!

The 08:54 has to sit behind the 08:49 London Mid as far as Ledburn; then also has to follow the 08:46 Crewe to Rugby and follows the 09:00 Piccadilly out of Rugby. It then sits in Crewe centre road for a London Mid Liverpool to go and follows a Class 4 up to Weaver.

The 10:36 gets a mildly good run on the grand scheme of things; the 16:33 stops at a fair few places in any event so it doesn't really catch anything up.

And so the freight companies and 5th freedom rights get in the way. Of course, freight needs to be able to run as well; just can't believe that's the best VT could come up with. Surely they should have had a crack at XX33 off Euston at 07:33, 10:33, 13:33 and 16:33 and let it go fast to Rugby with nothing in its way as the XX30 goes RA Warrington?

Assuming it stopped at Rugby from say XX22-XX26, it could then depart via the slow lines and follow the Manchester up the Trent Valley and through Crewe at XX14 behind the Glasgow stopper and onto Warrington at XX31 which provides a 1h58 journey time and seemingly nothing in the way for the entire distance? Not sure what that would do for the return journeys but departures from Blackpool at 0800, 1100, 1400 and 1700 would arguably be very beneficial?

 

[Ianno87]

R
l; just can't believe that's the best VT could come up with. Surely they should have had a crack at XX33 off Euston at 07:33, 10:33, 13:33 and 16:33 and let it go fast to Rugby with nothing in its way as the XX30 goes RA Warrington?

That would be lovely.

Except that I suspect VTWC are resourcing this with two between-the-peaks spare sets.

Hence the two mid-ish morning departures, so they can do a current peak working into Euston, fling themselves to Blackpool and back, to be back in time for an evening peak working. A 1333 working wouldn't fit with this.

Another benefit of not using the xx.33 path is not to have two Warrington/Wigan/Preston trains one behind the other, then nothing for 57 minutes. It's reasonable in the peak where the xx57 fills the gap, but not so much for the off-peak. Maximises the extent to which they can relieve passengers from the xx30 Anglo Scots departures (that they wouldn't do if departing right behind them)

Departure from Euston presumably also driven by turnrounds off inward workings, whilst not being too hungry with platform capacity pre-HS2 Euston rebuild.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks like the Ellesmere Port service is worse, not addressing increased housing in Ince / Elton. There are a few regulars I know who use the afternoon services will be disappointed.

What it really needs is every other Ellesmere Port Merseyrail extending to Helsby for an hourly service. Is it genuinely the case that third rail is not an option because of potential sparks near the oil site? If so, the proposed battery 777s could help allow this to be considered. Serving it from the other side isn't nearly as useful.

 

[DaveHarries]

I am not expecting anything important from GWR other than the usual improvements that they run over the Summer: there are more considerable changes from GWR due in January 2019.

Dave

 

[Starmill]

You also need to consider the trade off, XC want a much quicker journey time from Birmingham to Manchester

I definitely don't believe that. They are adding Macclesfield to a huge number of daily trains, which extends the journey time.

 

[frodshamfella]

What it really needs is every other Ellesmere Port Merseyrail extending to Helsby for an hourly service. Is it genuinely the case that third rail is not an option because of potential sparks near the oil site? If so, the proposed battery 777s could help allow this to be considered. Serving it from the other side isn't nearly as useful.

Yes agree that would be a good idea, run Merseyrail to Helsby. I'm not sure the 3rd rail is a big deal, someone said to me once there used to be steam on that route with sparks from that. Just what I was told by someone once.

In the meantime, its just what's offered !

 

[Bovverboy]

frodshamfella said: ↑
Looks like the Ellesmere Port service is worse, not addressing increased housing in Ince / Elton. There are a few regulars I know who use the afternoon services will be disappointed.

What it really needs is every other Ellesmere Port Merseyrail extending to Helsby for an hourly service.

Extending every other Merseyrail to Helsby would require an extra unit, the same as extending every Merseyrail there. So, no point in just extending every other journey, might as well extend them all.

 

[Ant158]

Is the Blackpool to York curtailment between Preston and Leeds a permanent change? Thought the plan was for this route to be made a Connect route.
East Lancs stations the poor relation again, losing all direct Blackpool and York trains. Have always enjoyed not having to change trains at Leeds when going from East Lancs to York. Will have to join the scrum for a seat coming back from York now. These services can be very busy seems daft to lose the direct links.