Northern / TransPennine Timetable Recast.

[LowLevel]

I have always thought that the main business from Chinley is people from Chapel who do not want to walk up the steep hill, or people from Buxton who think that the Buxton line is too slow and uncomfortable.

You're not far wrong. It's not at all unusual on the last one out of Manchester to have a number of people flash tickets for stations on the Buxton line with 'do you mind if we go to Chinley instead...?'

 

[frodshamfella]

I'm still leaning towards the idea that long-term extending Merseyrail at 4tph to Warrington Central (withdrawing CLC service from Lime St entirely) and operating a high frequency stopping[1] DMU service from there to Manchester, but a loss of through trains on the route, would actually be best.

[1] I'd figure 2tph calling Birchwood, Irlam, Flixton, Urmston, Deansgate and Oxford Road, and 2tph calling at all stations. You could drop one of the Glazebrook calls but for the difference it'll make consistent is probably better.

I like the Merseyrail extending to Warrington Central idea, would cover the Halton area too, which now part of the Greater Merseyside metropolitan region.

 

[Chester1]

I like the Merseyrail extending to Warrington Central idea, would cover the Halton area too, which now part of the Greater Merseyside metropolitan region.

This thread is about the timetable recast, there are other threads to discuss the fantasy of Merseyrail DC extension to Warrington! 769s on Liverpool to Oxford Road services are the nearest possible to that for many years.

 

[frodshamfella]

This thread is about the timetable recast, there are other threads to discuss the fantasy of Merseyrail DC extension to Warrington! 769s on Liverpool to Oxford Road services are the nearest possible to that for many years.

Thanks...I was replying to someone else's thread, which I found an interesting suggestion.

 

[RJ21]

It'll be interesting to see what the timetable change does to passenger numbers at some stations. Out of interest, and after a discussion about the changes yesterday and the possible effects on services at Chinley (may well not be going hourly there for a while yet and could still lose EMT calls) I went off and started crunching numbers.

First port of call was the ORR entry/exit data, useful to say how many people pass through a station. Next stop was work out how many trains call at the stations I looked up in an average week (RTT look up, random weekday*5, a saturday and a sunday). Then divide entry/exit by trains per week*51 (to allow for the christmas shut down and some total blockade days) to get a rough (very rough) average figure of passengers per train at that station, I did it that way to put all the stations on a level playing field.

Yielded some interesting results, per train Stalybridge is better used than Stockport, of the New Mills & Hope Valley line station the car parks at Marple must be its draw, and similar may be why Bredbury does better than Romiley (though Romiley does have getting on for twice as many services). As it got mentioned above I worked out Buxton after doing the chart, it's 23.36.

I guess the major caveat has to be that this is a very broad per train calculation, the ORR do not tell us where those passengers are going and at what time of day so it's hard to say are those passengers at Ashton going to Stalybridge or Victoria.

 

[Jonny]

A quick scan into June on RTT on Newcastle shows that the Transpennine services are up but very few Northern services are...

 

[Agent_Squash]

Furness line services are back up - looks like the Manchester Airport services have been delayed. Are 185s still going to be used for some services due to the cascade delays?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Furness line services are back up - looks like the Manchester Airport services have been delayed. Are 185s still going to be used for some services due to the cascade delays?

2 x 185s a day will continue to be leased to Northern for the Barrow line I believe.

 

[Bantamzen]

It'll be interesting to see what the timetable change does to passenger numbers at some stations. Out of interest, and after a discussion about the changes yesterday and the possible effects on services at Chinley (may well not be going hourly there for a while yet and could still lose EMT calls) I went off and started crunching numbers.

First port of call was the ORR entry/exit data, useful to say how many people pass through a station. Next stop was work out how many trains call at the stations I looked up in an average week (RTT look up, random weekday*5, a saturday and a sunday). Then divide entry/exit by trains per week*51 (to allow for the christmas shut down and some total blockade days) to get a rough (very rough) average figure of passengers per train at that station, I did it that way to put all the stations on a level playing field.

Yielded some interesting results, per train Stalybridge is better used than Stockport, of the New Mills & Hope Valley line station the car parks at Marple must be its draw, and similar may be why Bredbury does better than Romiley (though Romiley does have getting on for twice as many services). As it got mentioned above I worked out Buxton after doing the chart, it's 23.36.

I guess the major caveat has to be that this is a very broad per train calculation, the ORR do not tell us where those passengers are going and at what time of day so it's hard to say are those passengers at Ashton going to Stalybridge or Victoria.

View attachment 44428

Its an interesting methodology, certainly get me playing with a few figures out of interest. However might using the entrance/exit data miss interchanges, which would skew the numbers for Stockport a bit I would imagine & certainly for somewhere like Piccadilly but perhaps not so much for somewhere like Stalybridge?

 

[northwichcat]

Its an interesting methodology, certainly get me playing with a few figures out of interest. However might using the entrance/exit data miss interchanges, which would skew the numbers for Stockport a bit I would imagine & certainly for somewhere like Piccadilly but perhaps not so much for somewhere like Stalybridge?

I reckon Stalybridge's figures are pretty accurate while Stockport's would be more guess work. For example, how many people who buy Birmingham to Blackpool tickets change at Stockport? One passenger might travel via Stockport but change at Manchester, another might change at Stockport and a third might travel via Warrington and change at Wigan or Preston.

 

[Grannyjoans]

The cheaper and simpler solution would be to use 769s on Lime Street to Oxford Road stopping services

If 319 Flex ever even works!

I have always thought that the main business from Chinley is people from Chapel who do not want to walk up the steep hill, or people from Buxton who think that the Buxton line is too slow and uncomfortable.

The Buxton line certainly is slow and uncomfortable!
But Chinley is mainly served by 142's, surely even more uncomfortable than the mainly 150's on the Buxton line ?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

If 319 Flex ever even works!

Has there been anything to suggest that it won’t? Or is this just wibble.

 

[Chester1]

Has there been anything to suggest that it won’t? Or is this just wibble.

Northern's order of 8 was meant to be delivered this month but the first unit has not been tested at GCR yet. The latest public comments are maybe first delivery in July.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Latest news I heard is that the end-coaches on a 319 set cannot take the weight of the diesel engine, fuel tank and all associated equipment. They are flexing under the additional weight which they were never designed to take.

 

[northwichcat]

Latest news I heard is that the end-coaches on a 319 set cannot take the weight of the diesel engine, fuel tank and all associated equipment. They are flexing under the additional weight which they were never designed to take.

Well Porterbrook did say they'd be Flex trains.

I heard something similar with the excuse being the Flex designs were based on the underframes being as strong as they were when the trains were built, meaning they've had to do additional work (requiring extra time and expense.)

 

[backontrack]

Update.

TPE services on the South route (Cleethorpes to Manchester) will no longer serve Chinley from May 21st.

The will also remain 3 cars (mostly) until December timetable change when many more services should be 6 cars.

Will they still serve Dore?

It's likely that the Hope Valley Line stations will have skip-stopping when 1tph that way starts, so I don't know if all the stoppers will serve Chinley & Dore or just half.

 

[backontrack]

It'll be interesting to see what the timetable change does to passenger numbers at some stations. Out of interest, and after a discussion about the changes yesterday and the possible effects on services at Chinley (may well not be going hourly there for a while yet and could still lose EMT calls) I went off and started crunching numbers.

First port of call was the ORR entry/exit data, useful to say how many people pass through a station. Next stop was work out how many trains call at the stations I looked up in an average week (RTT look up, random weekday*5, a saturday and a sunday). Then divide entry/exit by trains per week*51 (to allow for the christmas shut down and some total blockade days) to get a rough (very rough) average figure of passengers per train at that station, I did it that way to put all the stations on a level playing field.

Yielded some interesting results, per train Stalybridge is better used than Stockport, of the New Mills & Hope Valley line station the car parks at Marple must be its draw, and similar may be why Bredbury does better than Romiley (though Romiley does have getting on for twice as many services). As it got mentioned above I worked out Buxton after doing the chart, it's 23.36.

I guess the major caveat has to be that this is a very broad per train calculation, the ORR do not tell us where those passengers are going and at what time of day so it's hard to say are those passengers at Ashton going to Stalybridge or Victoria.

View attachment 44428

Thank you for this - very informative.

 

[geoffk]

Would there have been 6 cars between Manchester and Sheffield anyway? Given TPE are required to run the extra Manchester-Leeds services and extend the York services to Newcastle I can't imagine there would have been many 185s for strengthening South TPE prior to the mk5s entering service.

Just looking Chinley will have a 07:01 and a 08:03 EMT service to Manchester and 16:42 and 17:42 EMT services from Manchester before the hourly? Northern services are taken in the consideration. That's a good service for a little village in the Peak District!

But don't Chinley folk commute to and from Stockport? Northern is no good for them. They are losing the TPE calls but what happens under the next EMT franchise? If these calls are lost they will presumably have to give up their jobs.

The Hope Valley local service is not going to be a regular hourly service yet and some stops are missed by the 1314 and 1545 ex Sheffield.

 

[geoffk]

I am guessing that your refering to Stalybridge losing services further than Leeds? Presumably it will have the 2tph of Semi fast services to Piccadilly and Leeds/Hull. Is the current plan to remove Stalybridge stops on all TPE services through Victoria? If so thats pretty stupid and must be due to the political wish to reduce journey times between Manchester and Leeds. I think there is no chance of 802 services stopping there due to their limited diesel power, its quite possible that they will run non stop between Victoria and Leeds until wiring eventually gets done. The Liverpool to Scarborough and Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough services should stop at both Stalybridge and Huddersfield though.

The four fast trains per hour will be non-stop Victoria to Huddersfield, with the Middlesbrough calling also at Dewsbury.
Another issue is the loss of the direct link between Mossley and Ashton, the main town in Tameside District.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Will they still serve Dore?

The following departures from Man Airport to Sheffield/Doncaster/Cleethorpes will serve Dore:
0653, 1653, 1753, 1853, 1953, 2053. So roughly 0719, then 1719 and so on from Man Picc

The following TPE trains run from Dore to Manchester Picc:
0615, 0715, 0814

 

[js1000]

Latest news I heard is that the end-coaches on a 319 set cannot take the weight of the diesel engine, fuel tank and all associated equipment. They are flexing under the additional weight which they were never designed to take.

If that's true then that sounds bad but not surprising. Always thought the idea was bonkers due to additional loads the the diesel equipment would create. If you want to add additional load to buildings you add additional columns, RSJs etc. You're sort of limited in what you can do with a train chassis. You may as well start from scratch and build new units.

 

[northwichcat]

But don't Chinley folk commute to and from Stockport? Northern is no good for them.

As I mentioned there's still EMT services to Stockport in the morning and from Stockport in the evening. This will allow someone from the Chinley area working normal office hours (8.30-5, 9-5 or 9-5.30) to commute on direct trains to Stockport at suitable times.

Even if all services to Stockport were withdrawn it would still be possible to commute between Chinley and Stockport, it would just require a change to a bus at Reddish North or a change of trains at Piccadilly (Stockport trains are very frequent from Piccadilly), yes it would be less convenient but it wouldn't mean everyone would start having to relocate, drive to another station or change jobs.

 

[sirbobpaisley]

I've just been checking the time tables for services between Leeds <=> Liverpool South Parkway and have been shocked to see that there is no longer any direct service. I will have to change at Man Oxford Road before boarding a Northern service to Parkway.

This isn't good enough for me as I have family living in Liverpool and this change has now made it very difficult for me to pop down and visit them for a day.

Does anyone have any information as to whether this is now a permanent change?

 

[skifans]

I've just been checking the time tables for services between Leeds <=> Liverpool South Parkway and have been shocked to see that there is no longer any direct service. I will have to change at Man Oxford Road before boarding a Northern service to Parkway.

This isn't good enough for me as I have family living in Liverpool and this change has now made it very difficult for me to pop down and visit them for a day.

Does anyone have any information as to whether this is now a permanent change?

My understanding is that this is a permanent change. Those trains now run along the line through Lee Green and Newton Le Willows instead. This has cut the journey time from Manchester to Liverpool from 52 to 35 minuets so the journey shouldn't be that much longer overall. Or you could change at Manchester Piccadilly and get the East Midlands Trains service to South Parkway. Quickest journeys around around 1.75 hours.

 

[northwichcat]

I've just been checking the time tables for services between Leeds <=> Liverpool South Parkway and have been shocked to see that there is no longer any direct service. I will have to change at Man Oxford Road before boarding a Northern service to Parkway.

This isn't good enough for me as I have family living in Liverpool and this change has now made it very difficult for me to pop down and visit them for a day.

Does anyone have any information as to whether this is now a permanent change?

Yes it's permanent. You really should have taken note of the TPE franchise consultation if you regularly travel between Leeds and South Parkway as that mentioned the plan was to route all TPE Liverpool services via Victoria and Chat Moss to improve journey times between Liverpool and Yorkshire and the North East.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've just been checking the time tables for services between Leeds <=> Liverpool South Parkway and have been shocked to see that there is no longer any direct service. I will have to change at Man Oxford Road before boarding a Northern service to Parkway.

This isn't good enough for me as I have family living in Liverpool and this change has now made it very difficult for me to pop down and visit them for a day.

Does anyone have any information as to whether this is now a permanent change?

You'll also note that Warrington, at least for a few months, has also lost a direct connection with Leeds which is a route I use regularly. However, current timetable problems notwithstanding a journey changing at either Manchester or Liverpool to South Parkway will take only 10-20 minutes longer with up to four possible journeys per hour.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I've just been checking the time tables for services between Leeds <=> Liverpool South Parkway and have been shocked to see that there is no longer any direct service. I will have to change at Man Oxford Road before boarding a Northern service to Parkway.

This isn't good enough for me as I have family living in Liverpool and this change has now made it very difficult for me to pop down and visit them for a day.

Does anyone have any information as to whether this is now a permanent change?

Just to clarify, why is it now more difficult? You can change trains to south parkway at lime street or at manchester piccadilly.

 

[sirbobpaisley]

Yes it's permanent. You really should have taken note of the TPE franchise consultation if you regularly travel between Leeds and South Parkway as that mentioned the plan was to route all TPE Liverpool services via Victoria and Chat Moss to improve journey times between Liverpool and Yorkshire and the North East.

I only visit family in Liverpool a couple of times a year so I wasn't really aware of the TPE franchise consultation.

Just to clarify, why is it now more difficult? You can change trains to south parkway at lime street or at manchester piccadilly.

I don't really want to go into too much personal detail, but I have an absolute maximum window of 3 hours to spend with my family before I have to head back home to Leeds. This will likely be the same problem my family will have when they come to Leeds to visit.

Going direct to Lime Street or even changing services means I'm going to have less time should there be any TOC cancellations or delays, which is more than likely to happen after what I've experienced since the new time tables came into effect.