Residents cut down a wood on Bristol railway line without permission to improve their views

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The thread title refers to "a wood". Do anyone know the official name of the said wood?

 

[bnm]

Now that the trees are gone the resident's garden ends are exposed and we can all see the various degrees of encroachment that has occurred down the years. I wonder if the residents will soon wake to find a lovely new and very large NR concrete and steel boundary fence chopping off several metres of their garden now? Perhaps the trees weren't so bad after all.

The job of putting up a nice tall, unsightly, palisade fence by Network Rail has certainly been made easier by the illegal removal of the vegetation. Hopefully NR will also plant some quick growing Leylandii or similar to ensure stability of the slope.

 

[alex17595]

Some concern has been expressed regarding the sawn off trunks rolling down onto the line of their own accord; I can state that this is unlikely unless said trunks are first sectioned into short logs (from much personal experience of trying to do exactly this!)

Could it encourage vandals to roll them down though?

 

[NSEFAN]

Resident Cecilia Farring said she had been campaigning for 20 years for the trees to be removed.

She said she had "finally" got permission for the work, but this is something Network Rail has denied.

She said the firm told her it would send a list of approved tree surgeons but never did, "so we organised for registered tree surgeons to do it".

I wonder if this is a case of a misunderstanding on the part of the resident? Even if NR agreed that trees could be cut down, this doesn't mean that she was to organise it off her own back.

 

[Clip]

The thread title refers to "a wood". Do anyone know the official name of the said wood?

Bristol Wood.



Or it was just said for the amount of trees that were cut down that any normal person would simply understand

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Made in Bristol TV devoted almost 12 minutes to this incident, they even got a local to speak on camera. Sadly Made haven't uploaded the said piece to their catch up service.

 

[D60]

It works ! Ok here goes...

1. The site here is a cutting, not an embankment. (The cutting here actually forms a tunnel mouth). The tree growth here is self-evidently not 'a wood'...

2. The presence of mature self-seeded deciduous trees here (said to be sycamores, widely regarded as a 'weed species'), is a result of half a century of neglect by BR/Railtrack/Network Rail.

3. Photographs of the railway at Montpelier in the 1960s show embankments and cutting sides still largely clear, (though low-growth starting to become apparent even then)..

4. Railway cuttings and embankments are engineered structures, not part of 'nature', and have to be maintained, to retain their structural integrity. In nature, trees perform a valuable role in soil stabilisation. On railway cuttings and embankments they do the opposite..

5. Network Rail is currently doing massive amounts of embankment and cutting side clearance and stabilisation work on a 4-mile stretch of railway in Bristol, the nearest section of which is less than a mile from this location, as part of the Filton Bank 4-tracking project. So it is very clear to any observer, casual or otherwise, what a NR-authorised tree clearance job looks like, and this is not it by a long way..

6. The houses on Cromwell Rd are 3-storey Victorian semis, some owner-occupied, some divided into flats.. It is certainly not a 'millionaires row'... It seems highly unlikely (inconceivable) that the person responsible here has engaged a NR-approved contractor, with all the requisite safety training and certification, safety measures in place, safety barriers to protect the running line, look-outs, etc, etc.. as witnessed all along Filton Bank over the last 2 years..

7. Train drivers on the frequent Avonmouth/Severn Beach services (3-car 166 Turbos) are reported to have alerted Network Rail of 'unauthorised presence' on the railway, as the work was being done. They would know what a NR-authorised job looks like.. (not this!)..

8. Different possible motives have been suggested... The view from the backs of properties on Cromwell Rd, shading of gardens and veg plots, risk of damage to property, etc... we cannot be certain of the true motivation, any or all of these...
The greater risk at this specific location is of trees falling downwards onto the railway, rather than upwards onto the neighbouring properties. Further down Cromwell Rd/Station Rd, where the railway is carried on an embankment towards the Arches viaduct, the risk is very much the other way. Here, the 50- year sycamores are heavily ivy-burdened, and sway alarmingly, top-heavily, dangerously, as the winter gales grab hold of them at the time when they should be free of foliage... as cars, buses, pedestrians pass by below on the busy A38 Gloucester Road into the centre of Bristol..

9. I predict a programme of embankment and cutting side tree clearance and stabilisation work along this stretch of railway too.. hopefully to coincide with the reinstatement of double track on this section (assuming that work is still scheduled to proceed..).. and installation of pallisade fencing between the properties on Cromwell Rd and the railway...

(Over and out.. )

 

[Shenandoah]

Not only trespass but would be called vandalism if has happened recently near a scenic photographic location.
I not a complainant moaning about train noises. If you don't like them then do not buy or rent a property adjacent a railway line!

 

[InOban]

9. I predict a programme of embankment and cutting side tree clearance and stabilisation work along this stretch of railway too.. hopefully to coincide with the reinstatement of double track on this section (assuming that work is still scheduled to proceed..).. and installation of pallisade fencing between the properties on Cromwell Rd and the railway...

(Over and out.. )

You seem to know more about this than most contributors, so I hesitate to comment.
1. I think we have to distinguish between embankments and cuttings. The former are by definition artificial - I don't know what materials the railway builders used, but they are often very dry. Cuttings are entirely dependent on what they are cut into. If hard rock, the last thing you want is any woody shrubs, let alone trees, since the roots will prize the rock apart. But a graded slope, as in this case, could be anything from sand to soil to clay. It will benefit from plants with deep roots to hold it together. After all, just last week we had a landslide on the Mallaig line almost certainly caused by the absence of deep-rooted native woodland to hold the slope together.

2. I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the issue of leaf fall.

3. I think the owners lost patience. They wanted the trees down before they started back into growth and the birds nested.

 

[D60]

Replying to InOban..

Yep, leaf fall certainly an issue, as we all are aware...

Yes, embankments vs cuttings, the issues may vary but are similar, and it depends what material the embankment was built from / the cutting cut through.... We assume those who did the work a century and a half ago knew what they were doing and got it right (sometimes they didn't always!)... Drainage appears to be a key factor... and tree roots disrupt and block drainage systems and culverts resulting in waterlogging.. and making visual inspection more difficult.

Certainly cuttings and embankments were never designed to rely on tree growth for their integrity and stability... and the amount of work done on stripping back trees and remediation of their effect of the last 50 years on a nearby stretch of railway.. suggests that they are 'undesirable' at least.. on a length of railway through similar terrain/geography/geology...

Maybe the neighbours were losing patience... But it is still Network Rail's responsibility, and self-interest..!

(Written from no particular specialist knowledge.. just a casual observer of the work being currently done on railway embankments and cuttings in Bristol... and of the heavily ivy-burdened trees on the embankment above Gloucester Rd, Montpelier, from the window of the Cat n Wheel pub!)..

 

[lammergeier]

You seem to know more about this than most contributors, so I hesitate to comment.
1. I think we have to distinguish between embankments and cuttings. The former are by definition artificial - I don't know what materials the railway builders used, but they are often very dry. Cuttings are entirely dependent on what they are cut into. If hard rock, the last thing you want is any woody shrubs, let alone trees, since the roots will prize the rock apart. But a graded slope, as in this case, could be anything from sand to soil to clay. It will benefit from plants with deep roots to hold it together. After all, just last week we had a landslide on the Mallaig line almost certainly caused by the absence of deep-rooted native woodland to hold the slope together.

2. I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the issue of leaf fall.

3. I think the owners lost patience. They wanted the trees down before they started back into growth and the birds nested.

Leaf fall is irrelevant to the discussion which is probably why it hasn't been mentioned. Whether or not there is a minor benefit to train running in Autumn is a side issue to the apparently unauthorised removal of trees, trespass, vandalism, numerous safety breaches and possible destruction of a bat colony (protected by law.)

 

[kermit]

The thread title refers to "a wood". Do anyone know the official name of the said wood?

Pogle's Wood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogles'_Wood

 

[InOban]

Unless the trees are old enough to be hollow, I would be surprised if there were bats at this time of year. More likely to be hibernating in the tunnel!

Of course it's all illegal and dangerous, but people would be less tempted to break the law if they could be sure of legal action in a reasonable timeframe and at reasonable cost. She's been trying to get them cut down for twenty years.

 

[Marklund]

Unless the trees are old enough to be hollow, I would be surprised if there were bats at this time of year. More likely to be hibernating in the tunnel!

Of course it's all illegal and dangerous, but people would be less tempted to break the law if they could be sure of legal action in a reasonable timeframe and at reasonable cost. She's been trying to get them cut down for twenty years.

And? It doesn't matter if it's Network Rail, or Railtrack if it's been 20 years, if the answer is no, then it's no.

 

[GB]

Unless the trees are old enough to be hollow, I would be surprised if there were bats at this time of year. More likely to be hibernating in the tunnel!

Of course it's all illegal and dangerous, but people would be less tempted to break the law if they could be sure of legal action in a reasonable timeframe and at reasonable cost. She's been trying to get them cut down for twenty years.

Unless the trees are either dangerous or damaging someone else's property, why should NR cut them down?

 

[InOban]

I suspect that if it's anything like most people's dealings with large organisations, the answer wasn't no. It was no answer at all.

 

[Marklund]

I suspect that if it's anything like most people's dealings with large organisations, the answer wasn't no. It was no answer at all.

I would say go back and read the story again, where the residents who cut the trees down claim there's communications.

It is understood Network Rail checked a long thread of emails between Mr Cutting and their office in Swindon about the trees on the embankment, and they are confident none of them could be interpreted as permission.

 

[Steptoe]

Indeed there was probably no reply to the resident(s) who wanted the trees removed; as I implied in my earlier post for every x number of residents who would like trees removed there will be a broadly equal number who would like them retained and will protest vociferously.

The only solution as has already been implied in the thread is to only remove them on operational or safety grounds so as to be able to deflect any subsequent complaints.

With regard to the stability of cuttings I have heard on good authority that over a (long) period of time that trees will 'walk' down a slope, presumably taking the cutting material with them.

 

[Wychwood93]

Indeed there was probably no reply to the resident(s) who wanted the trees removed; as I implied in my earlier post for every x number of residents who would like trees removed there will be a broadly equal number who would like them retained and will protest vociferously.

The only solution as has already been implied in the thread is to only remove them on operational or safety grounds so as to be able to deflect any subsequent complaints.

With regard to the stability of cuttings I have heard on good authority that over a (long) period of time that trees will 'walk' down a slope, presumably taking the cutting material with them.

Trees walking takes me to Lord of the Rings and Treebeard and his mates strolling around. The earlier post re. Pogles' Wood is nothing to do with the non-wood that this was. OS map shows no named wood in this location. Whilst on the railway I was aware that certain permissions were granted on an unofficial basis for persons to cut wood on railway land - I recall a member of staff being allowed to provide for the log burner at home by cutting trees down on railway land near the former Dinton station. I would stress that this was well away from the operational railway - a lot of unused railway land near there at the time. Not saying that what was going on was correct - but at least a member of staff had a good idea of how things should be. By the way, not me! This thread item should have been done properly - which it would appear it was not.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Some years ago one of the civil engineers explained to me why trees weren’t ideal things to have in cuttings or on embankments. He said that although the roots do stabilise the ground to some extent those same roots draw up large amounts of water but this is in the spring and summer when the ground would normally be dry, and water is in short supply, this can cause issues with voiding. In the winter when water is in good supply and the ground may be waterlogged the trees are dormant and don’t drink so leading to possible bank slips. I’m not a civil engineer so not sure it this is correct but certainly sounds plausible.

 

[InOban]

It does, but will, I suspect, depend on the nature of the soil. Clay soils are very risky.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

6. The houses on Cromwell Rd are 3-storey Victorian semis, some owner-occupied, some divided into flats.. It is certainly not a 'millionaires row'...

Quite correct, as a quick look at RightMove will confirm:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/BS6/Cromwell-Road.html

( Link is to a list of recent property sales in the road in question, with prices, and states which are flats. The majority of them do appear to be )

Incidentally, going along the road in Streetview shows from the gaps between the houses that the upper floor views were generally not obstructed by the trees at all

 

[TUC]

Looks like it could have been done without trespassing on the line itself though.

 

[cuccir]

To me there seems to be a fairly clear two wrongs doesn't make a right arguement going on.

Network Rail don't sound like they've been ideal neighbours here. But it should be self evident that it's wrong to send people onto anyone elses land and start landscaping it, whether it's Network Rail, a private business, or Mr and Mrs Jones at number 22!

 

[Carntyne]

Looks like it could have been done without trespassing on the line itself though.

If what I'm reading in this thread, the trees are on railway land, therefore it's trespass. Doesn't matter if they aren't standing in the four foot.

 

[whhistle]

Yet all that being said, you did have the confidence to use the term "a few quid" in your posting, so as a lawyer, you must be aware of the smallness of the financial implications of what you actually said in print.

Huh?
On some internet forum?
Whats written isn't legally binding :P

I've heard some people say "a few quid" when they really mean hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Accept - the guy doesn't know the cost, he doesn't know the ins and outs of the case, and I suspect nobody here will.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Huh? On some internet forum? Whats written isn't legally binding :P

I've heard some people say "a few quid" when they really mean hundreds of thousands of pounds. Accept - the guy doesn't know the cost, he doesn't know the ins and outs of the case, and I suspect nobody here will.

I made my posting as the other person stated that he was a lawyer, thus fully expecting a return of posting to have been made in terms of clarity one would expect from a professional member of a legal body.

 

[Dunnyrail]

Drivers reported this activity.
Re item 7 in post 97, it surprises me that the Line was not immediately closed and the Keystones ordered in to the event? Health n Safety surely should have ensured that.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Some years ago one of the civil engineers explained to me why trees weren’t ideal things to have in cuttings or on embankments. He said that although the roots do stabilise the ground to some extent those same roots draw up large amounts of water but this is in the spring and summer when the ground would normally be dry, and water is in short supply, this can cause issues with voiding. In the winter when water is in good supply and the ground may be waterlogged the trees are dormant and don’t drink so leading to possible bank slips. I’m not a civil engineer so not sure it this is correct but certainly sounds plausible.

Correct. Light vegetation to bind soil together is good, trees which have massive influences on water are not.

There are some specific examples which do not follow that rule and i acknowledge that but i do not expect this to be one of them.

 

[B&I]

I made my posting as the other person stated that he was a lawyer, thus fully expecting a return of posting to have been made in terms of clarity one would expect from a professional member of a legal body.

If you want professional levels of clarity, you can pay me professional levels of fees. Which I will then use to employ a surveyor to comment on the particular question of the value of houses in the Bristol suburbs. The only professional knowledge I was bringing to the previous discussion was about the likelihood of trespass having been committed and the possible civil action arising from that.