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GWR Class 800

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jimm

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What is the reason that there are 9-car units rather than 10-car? Will these run to specific stations where platform length is an issue or was it just to save money? How easy would it be to add a tenth car?

There is the point mentioned above by 47802 about the 2x5 v 9-car capacity comparison, but how many extra seats do you think should be provided?

The 2x5 and 9-car already both offer about 70 more seats than a high-density GWR HST and the 802s will have about 130 more than a low-density HSTs they will replace on West Country services.

A 10-car set would probably require adding another diesel engine to the bi-mode version to shift it - so more expense in fuel and maintenance, on top of more track access charges for a longer formation.
 
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Kite159

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One of 800013/800017 had a door fault earlier today when at Reading. Thankfully it got fixed (but the staff lose a mark for poor communication)
 

221129

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One of 800013/800017 had a door fault earlier today when at Reading. Thankfully it got fixed (but the staff lose a mark for poor communication)
Surely if they were busy trying to rectify the fault to get you moving then it's not the end of the world?
 

Dhassell

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Surely if they were busy trying to rectify the fault to get you moving then it's not the end of the world?
To be fair, it only takes the TM a matter of seconds to go, "This train is being delayed here due to a door fault" on the PA.
 

Kite159

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There was a couple passengers getting a bit uptight about connections at London, how hard would it be for a quick message like:
"this train is being delayed here due to a fault, please cross over to platform 11 for an alternative service to London which will get you there faster" to put the passengers at ease.
 

absolutelymilk

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There is the point mentioned above by 47802 about the 2x5 v 9-car capacity comparison, but how many extra seats do you think should be provided?

The 2x5 and 9-car already both offer about 70 more seats than a high-density GWR HST and the 802s will have about 130 more than a low-density HSTs they will replace on West Country services.

A 10-car set would probably require adding another diesel engine to the bi-mode version to shift it - so more expense in fuel and maintenance, on top of more track access charges for a longer formation.
I meant adding a car once electrification to Cardiff/Bristol TM is completed so that there is no need for an additional engine.
 

jimm

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I meant adding a car once electrification to Cardiff/Bristol TM is completed so that there is no need for an additional engine.

If that was what you meant, then why didn't you say it in the first place?

Still doesn't get us away from extra track access charges and maintenance for another coach, or the question of how many extra seats are needed - e.g. in the case of Bristol the service is going to go to 4 trains per hour through running a number of limited-stop service worked by five-car sets, so there will be lots of extra seats provided on the route without operating 700+ seat monster trains, which would take a lot of work to fill most of the time and maybe even in the peaks.
 

absolutelymilk

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If that was what you meant, then why didn't you say it in the first place?
Sorry two separate questions, 1. Why wasn't there a tenth coach added in the first place? 2. How easy would it be to add another coach if it turns out that passenger growth is higher than expected (which presumably would take at least a year to show)

Still doesn't get us away from extra track access charges and maintenance for another coach, or the question of how many extra seats are needed - e.g. in the case of Bristol the service is going to go to 4 trains per hour through running a number of limited-stop service worked by five-car sets, so there will be lots of extra seats provided on the route without operating 700+ seat monster trains, which would take a lot of work to fill most of the time and maybe even in the peaks.
Yes, but it may turn out that passenger growth is higher than expected, or that the govt is willing to lower ticket prices to drive demand.
 

D1009

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Sorry two separate questions, 1. Why wasn't there a tenth coach added in the first place? 2. How easy would it be to add another coach if it turns out that passenger growth is higher than expected (which presumably would take at least a year to show)


Yes, but it may turn out that passenger growth is higher than expected, or that the govt is willing to lower ticket prices to drive demand.
What government might that be? Are you expecting a general election?
 

jayah

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There is the point mentioned above by 47802 about the 2x5 v 9-car capacity comparison, but how many extra seats do you think should be provided?

The 2x5 and 9-car already both offer about 70 more seats than a high-density GWR HST and the 802s will have about 130 more than a low-density HSTs they will replace on West Country services.

A 10-car set would probably require adding another diesel engine to the bi-mode version to shift it - so more expense in fuel and maintenance, on top of more track access charges for a longer formation.

GNER introduced 2+9 HSTs well over 10 years ago which would have delivered a bigger capacity increase than 70 seats.

The fact that 1x9 and 2x5 have the same number of seats tells you why coupled units are such a bad idea - as well as extra staff costs you lose a whole coach to kitchens, cabs and disabled toilets. They should all have been 10car units with an increase of around an additional 90 seats on top of the current 9 car.
 

NotATrainspott

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Sorry two separate questions, 1. Why wasn't there a tenth coach added in the first place? 2. How easy would it be to add another coach if it turns out that passenger growth is higher than expected (which presumably would take at least a year to show)


Yes, but it may turn out that passenger growth is higher than expected, or that the govt is willing to lower ticket prices to drive demand.

The infrastructure is being installed for 10 car operation, so that you can have 5+5 doubled up sets. The AT300 has a minimum of 5 cars per set, so 10 car is the minimum for any sort of portion working. Because driving vehicles have less capacity than intermediate ones, a 9 car single set has approximately the same capacity as a 5+5 car double set. Making the two types have approximately the same capacity makes it easy to swap one for another.

AT300 trains can have anything between 5 and 12 carriages. The IEP technical specification made sure that additional carriages can be added in easily in future with only minimal effort.
 

jayah

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The infrastructure is being installed for 10 car operation, so that you can have 5+5 doubled up sets. The AT300 has a minimum of 5 cars per set, so 10 car is the minimum for any sort of portion working. Because driving vehicles have less capacity than intermediate ones, a 9 car single set has approximately the same capacity as a 5+5 car double set. Making the two types have approximately the same capacity makes it easy to swap one for another.

AT300 trains can have anything between 5 and 12 carriages. The IEP technical specification made sure that additional carriages can be added in easily in future with only minimal effort.

A lot of the 2x5 are already full. The 70 seats isn't enough. The cost of adding any extra coaches, even to the 1x9 won't be minimal which is a bit of a pain as we the taxpayer have already paid for them in the form of unnecessary cabs and kitchens.
 

NotATrainspott

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A lot of the 2x5 are already full. The 70 seats isn't enough. The cost of adding any extra coaches, even to the 1x9 won't be minimal which is a bit of a pain as we the taxpayer have already paid for them in the form of unnecessary cabs and kitchens.

At the moment, the IEPs are running the existing HST timetable. Only once the new timetable is introduced can you really say whether enough capacity was provided. If passenger numbers increase very quickly to fill the new capacity it seems highly probable that the extra intermediate vehicles will be ordered. The AT300 production line will be open through 2020. From a technical and operational perspective there's no difficulty extending the trains, and I very much doubt Agility Trains is going to put up a fight if the contract needs amended.
 

absolutelymilk

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What government might that be? Are you expecting a general election?
No, but a new PM by say 2020 might take a different attitude to the railways, especially if all the completed upgrades over the next few years create more rail users!

Back on topic, yes this has answered my question, so it would be fairly easy to add another carriage and there wasn't some hidden reason it wasn't added in the first place.
 

jimm

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GNER introduced 2+9 HSTs well over 10 years ago which would have delivered a bigger capacity increase than 70 seats.

And your point is what? An 2+9 East Coast HST seats 540-550 people, so about three dozen shy of a GWR 2+8 high-density set, and 100 shy of a nine-car or 2x5 IET.

The fact that 1x9 and 2x5 have the same number of seats tells you why coupled units are such a bad idea - as well as extra staff costs you lose a whole coach to kitchens, cabs and disabled toilets. They should all have been 10car units with an increase of around an additional 90 seats on top of the current 9 car.

Not this tired old one again...

Yes, let's replace all the single-unit 180 and Turbo workings to Oxford and the Cotswold Line with a 10-car monster seating almost three times as many people.

Let's run a 4tph service to Bristol and work it with 10-car sets, providing 3,000 seats per hour each way.

Let's step up the London-Gloucester/Cheltenham service to hourly and then run it with 10-car sets, instead of alternating HSTs (that aren't noted for being packed out off-peak) and 15x dmus to/from Swindon.

Let's get a big dose or realism here about the various types of stock the IETs are replacing and the different needs of the routes they will be working - they aren't one-size-fits-all and that size most certainly isn't a single-unit 10-car train, boasting more than 700 seats.

And let's see what capacity requirements look like once the full new timetable and GWR train fleet is in place (plus Crossrail in the Thames Valley at the end of 2019) - growth in passenger traffic clearly slowed down around the network in the past year.

How anyone can say it is probable that more coaches will be ordered beats me. Most of the fleet GWR will have to work with has been ordered directly by the government, using a complex and costly contract that it is going to be extremely reluctant to revisit to make it even more expensive.
 

Phil G

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Have the diagrams changed with the new year? The 07:00 Paddington to Bristol is back to HST today, although information screens show 8 coaches but the first class info is for an 800.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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No, but a new PM by say 2020 might take a different attitude to the railways, especially if all the completed upgrades over the next few years create more rail users!

Back on topic, yes this has answered my question, so it would be fairly easy to add another carriage and there wasn't some hidden reason it wasn't added in the first place.
Government procurement doesn't work like that.
The mega-contracts for IEP must have been wrestled over many times to arrive at an affordable fleet cost, and GWR doesn't just go to DfT and say OK we need a 10th coach.
DfT has already been stung with the extra cost of dieselising the GWR fleet.
Fleet size will probably come round again when the GW franchise is rebid in about 5 years time.
Until then they have to make the best of what they have under the current contract.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Have the diagrams changed with the new year? The 07:00 Paddington to Bristol is back to HST today, although information screens show 8 coaches but the first class info is for an 800.

Diagram reset from today. And the CIS information not being updated appears to be widespread. 1C20 1530 Padd-Weston was advertised tonight as 'Formed 8 coaches, front 5 beyond Bristol, First Class in Middle and Rear, coaches D, E, J and K.' What actually turned up was a 2+8 HST in normal formation (i.e. Standard class ABCDEF and First class K & L) and obviously all going to Weston! Cue lots of confused punters who'd just about got used to the new arrangement.
 

aar0

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First 800 Pullman (to Swansea) is impending, will any of our members be sampling it? Will it run? Will it be offered in both first classes?
 

ooo

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First 800 Pullman (to Swansea) is impending, will any of our members be sampling it? Will it run? Will it be offered in both first classes?
It's already run. People have put pictures on Twitter
 

ainsworth74

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Aha excellent! Many thanks :)

Hopefully people are now convinced that these trains can, indeed, do Pullman Dining! :lol:
 
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