EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[northwichcat]

Really? I suggest you view a program called The Illegal Jobcentre on BBC3. It seems many people from Hungary, Poland and Romania will quite happily do black market work on a building site for employers who break the law in many ways e.g. no insurance, no minimum wage and not even a guarantee of work the next day.

 

[furnessvale]

Really? I suggest you view a program called The Illegal Jobcentre on BBC3. It seems many people from Hungary, Poland and Romania will quite happily do black market work on a building site for employers who break the law in many ways e.g. no insurance, no minimum wage and not even a guarantee of work the next day.

At least we will be able to deport them as illegal immigrants in the future.
Unless of course they claim asylum from the EU!

 

[najaB]

At least we will be able to deport them as illegal immigrants in the future.

That presumes that the authorities know they are here.

 

[furnessvale]

That presumes that the authorities know they are here.

Naturally true of illegal immigrants anywhere in the world.

One thing about an illegal immigrant on the black, they may not be contributing to the economy but equally they are not drawing either.
No social housing, no remitting benefits back home, no children in school, no NHS etc.
There is a point in low earning immigrants where contributions in the form of tax etc. finally exceed the benefits etc. received, but many of the low earning immigrants do not reach that point.
Of course, anyone from the EU will still be able to apply to work in the UK legally, and if they have a skill we need, or even no skills other than fruit picking etc., if its what the UK wants, they can enter legally.

 

[EM2]

One thing about an illegal immigrant on the black, they may not be contributing to the economy...

So they don't buy food or drink, drive and fuel a vehicle, use public transport...?

 

[furnessvale]

So they don't buy food or drink, drive and fuel a vehicle, use public transport...?

I'd be very happy if my contribution to taxation was confined to VAT and excise duty.

 

[EM2]

I'd be very happy if my contribution to taxation was confined to VAT and excise duty.

So you acknowledge that they are contributing to the economy?

 

[radamfi]

Of course, anyone from the EU will still be able to apply to work in the UK legally, and if they have a skill we need, or even no skills other than fruit picking etc., if its what the UK wants, they can enter legally.

But why would they bother with the UK, when they have many other countries to choose from? Britain will need to look outside the EU for the immigrants it needs.

 

[AlterEgo]

Wait what?
Why is the EU even involved?

We catch people working illicitly all the time, and not just at their point of entry.

You mean we often catch them when they’re working - when they’ve already gone aboht the business of taking a job which they are not entitled to.

 

[Howardh]

Unlike the present situation, such EU entrants would become illegal immigrants and as such, only the black economy would be open to them.
Someone from Syria or Somalia for example, may consider the UK black economy attractive, an EU national much less so.

What would stop someone from the EU coming in as a tourist, and even if they were checked for a return £19.99 Ryanair to Whereverski, they simply hang around until a job they can take (ie one of the thousands of jobs we won't do) and their flight home's long gone? We haven't got the resources to go hunting for EU's that haven't showed up for a flight. If the argument is that whilst they are job hunting they are self-funding so not a drain on us so it's OK; is exactly what Cameron got from the EU when he negotiated there himself - a "look but no benefits" agreement.
So Brexit means...no change??

 

[northwichcat]

Ignore

 

[NSEFAN]

So Brexit means...no change??

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But why would they bother with the UK, when they have many other countries to choose from? Britain will need to look outside the EU for the immigrants it needs.

Did you have those former residents in the now demolished Calais camp, mainly sub-Saharan African people, in mind?

 

[radamfi]

Did you have those former residents in the now demolished Calais camp, mainly sub-Saharan African people, in mind?

Essentially, people from developing countries outside the EU.

 

[northwichcat]

But why would they bother with the UK, when they have many other countries to choose from?

How many English speaking countries are there in Europe? In many countries English is spoken as a second or third language, which is great for us when we go on holiday but it also means those looking to move abroad would ideally like to move to an English speaking country.

 

[Howardh]

How many English speaking countries are there in Europe? In many countries English is spoken as a second or third language, which is great for us when we go on holiday but it also means those looking to move abroad would ideally like to move to an English speaking country.

I'm struggling to find somewhere that speaks perfect English in...England!! let's face it, the Dutch and Germans speak our language better than we do. Thoughout the world English has been used so that two people with different languages can communicate with each other. One day I suppose it will be overtaken by Russian, Chinese or Japanese.

 

[radamfi]

How many English speaking countries are there in Europe? In many countries English is spoken as a second or third language, which is great for us when we go on holiday but it also means those looking to move abroad would ideally like to move to an English speaking country.

Because English is spoken as a second language throughout much of Europe, it is perfectly possible to get a job where speaking English is good enough. Many EU citizens have moved to non-English speaking countries to work. Even Brits.

 

[northwichcat]

Because English is spoken as a second language throughout much of Europe, it is perfectly possible to get a job where speaking English is good enough. Many EU citizens have moved to non-English speaking countries to work. Even Brits.

If you are very highly qualified then yes your skills will be seen as more important than speaking the local language e.g. Siemens offering qualified British engineers the opportunity to work on Thameslink trains in Germany. However, if you are a low paid cafe/shop/restaurant worker then speaking the local language is imperative. So is it the highly qualified people we want to go to other countries post-Brexit?

Brits who moved abroad without fluently speaking the local language then to all stay in specific areas. While there's many British people living in Spain there's huge areas of Spain where you wouldn't hear a word of English.

 

[radamfi]

If you are very highly qualified then yes your skills will be seen as more important than speaking the local language e.g. Siemens offering qualified British engineers the opportunity to work on Thameslink trains in Germany. However, if you are a low paid cafe/shop/restaurant worker then speaking the local language is imperative. So is it the highly qualified people we want to go to other countries post-Brexit?

There are a lot of people working in catering and other low paid jobs in non-English speaking countries who don't speak the local language. I can recall specific instances in restaurants and take-aways in Copenhagen and Reykjavik where I could hear staff communicating in English. Locals in high income countries such as those don't want to do such jobs. There are also a lot of staff doing unskilled jobs in Britain who speak little English, like the cleaners in my office in London.

 

[northwichcat]

There are a lot of people working in catering and other low paid jobs in non-English speaking countries who don't speak the local language. I can recall specific instances in restaurants and take-aways in Copenhagen and Reykjavik where I could hear staff communicating in English. Locals in high income countries such as those don't want to do such jobs. There are also a lot of staff doing unskilled jobs in Britain who speak little English, like the cleaners in my office in London.

Do you speak fluent Danish or Icelandic? If not then you wouldn't be able to use those restaurants and takeaways easily if they didn't employ staff who speak foreign languages. The situation may be very different in non-touristy cities.

 

[najaB]

I'm struggling to see the importance of English skills to the Brexit debate. If there's work then people go where they are able to get to (legally or illegally) and learn enough of the language to get by. People who are coming to the UK and learning English can go to [insert country] and learn [insert language] just as easily if that's what they have to do to get work.

 

[furnessvale]

I'm struggling to see the importance of English skills to the Brexit debate. If there's work then people go where they are able to get to (legally or illegally) and learn enough of the language to get by. People who are coming to the UK and learning English can go to [insert country] and learn [insert language] just as easily if that's what they have to do to get work.

For once, I agree with you.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm struggling to see the importance of English skills to the Brexit debate. If there's work then people go where they are able to get to (legally or illegally) and learn enough of the language to get by. People who are coming to the UK and learning English can go to [insert country] and learn [insert language] just as easily if that's what they have to do to get work.

It's not that they can't. It's one reason why the UK is higher up the list of countries foreigners want to move to than countries which have less commonly spoken languages as their official language.

 

[Howardh]

Do you speak fluent Danish or Icelandic? If not then you wouldn't be able to use those restaurants and takeaways easily if they didn't employ staff who speak foreign languages. The situation may be very different in non-touristy cities.

On a completely different tack from Brexit - I have always felt a mix of pride and embarrassment that english is used throughout the world; the embarrassment is that - as a result - we (generally as a nation) don't generally have a second, fluent language; could be a mix of it being unnecessary, simply lazyness on our part, or simply which "other" language is best? French, Russian, German??
To that end I decided to learn a little Dutch - enough to get by with - for the hell of it even though the majority of Dutch speak english better than us!

 

[radamfi]

Do you speak fluent Danish or Icelandic? If not then you wouldn't be able to use those restaurants and takeaways easily if they didn't employ staff who speak foreign languages. The situation may be very different in non-touristy cities.

But the staff were speaking to each other in English, not just to the customers. If they were all locals they would be using the local language.

 

[fowler9]

I can have a conversation in French and Spanish. I can get by in Polish, Italian and Czech. In a bizarre turn of events people from EU countries will still be able to go and get low paid jobs in other EU countries if they can converse in English. English people possibly won't be able to depending on any Brexit deal that is worked out.

 

[northwichcat]

But the staff were speaking to each other in English, not just to the customers. If they were all locals they would be using the local language.

Yes I already got that. However, I was saying if they were staffed by locals who only spoke the local language then those would be restaurants/takeaways which tourists like yourself would avoid opposed to ones you would buy from. I also made the point what's typical in a city that gets lots of tourists isn't necessarily typical of the whole country. Staff speaking a foreign language will have very little business benefit in areas which don't any foreign visitors.

 

[najaB]

Interesting Op-Ed piece on the Guardian's website: The Observer view of Britain’s shambolic Brexit negotiations

Naturally it has bias, but it does highlight something that even the most ardent Brexit supporter will likely be starting to realise:

We are in danger of becoming the incredible shrinking island, slowly sinking, flags flying, into North Atlantic mists. Recent comments by Wilbur Ross, the US commerce secretary, suggesting Britain must scrap key regulatory standards to secure a bilateral trade deal, show how potentially harmful are the Brexiters’ half-baked ideas about a future free trade paradise. Do they still believe Trump’s America, China or India will offer sweetheart deals at mates’ rates? Dream on. Bigger powers will ruthlessly exploit Britain’s growing, self-inflicted weakness and isolation. And the cost will be borne not by Tory wreckers but by those in Britain who can least afford it.

 

[fowler9]

Interesting Op-Ed piece on the Guardian's website: The Observer view of Britain’s shambolic Brexit negotiations

Naturally it has bias, but it does highlight something that even the most ardent Brexit supporter will likely be starting to realise:

Thing is they are exactly the regulatory standards the Brexiters wanted to get rid of thinking that we will somehow be able to dictate terms to countries that are much more powerful than ours these days.

 

[Howardh]

Interesting Op-Ed piece on the Guardian's website: The Observer view of Britain’s shambolic Brexit negotiations

Naturally it has bias, but it does highlight something that even the most ardent Brexit supporter will likely be starting to realise:

It seems fairly obvious, the bigger the country we are up against the more we will be shafted, and the smaller (friendllier?) nations - maybe the Canada's and Australia's of the world, simply aren't big enough (in population, not size) to cover any Brexit losses. What can China and India buy from us that they don't produce more of and a darned sight cheaper themselves? If Brexit voters had actually thought through the process of elimination first they may have concluded that it's a pretty good idea to hang on to the 27 countries we have a legal right to trade with. But there we go.