Brexit - Deal or No Deal?

[dcsprior]

Personally, I don't see why Nick Clegg got so much hatred for forming a coalition that seemed to keep the Tories under a fair level of control and seemed like a rather good compromise.

Because the Lib Dems stood on a platform that was arguably the furthest left of the 3 main UK-wide parties, and then when they had the choice which of the other two to go into coalition with, choose the one furthest to the right.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Personally, I don't see why Nick Clegg got so much hatred for forming a coalition that seemed to keep the Tories under a fair level of control and seemed like a rather good compromise. But, student loans.. and that's it - he's as bad as Hitler (Sorry Godwin).

Just speaking for myself, it wasn't student fees. It was the general principle of seemingly having no red lines which were not to be crossed. It was the support of policies that were abhorrent to many who voted for the Lib Dems. The student fees were just part of the big picture, and were an easy thing to shout about considering the parties involvement before the election!

 

[bramling]

Because the Lib Dems stood on a platform that was arguably the furthest left of the 3 main UK-wide parties, and then when they had the choice which of the other two to go into coalition with, choose the one furthest to the right.

Surely that "choice" was more determined by the fact that Cameron had a bigger vote share than Brown? In fact, I'm sure I remember Clegg going on record beforehand as saying the election result would be his determining factor. Furthermore, I don't think public mood would have supported a Clegg/Brown coalition, the election result kind of went that way because a lot of people wanted Labour out! The Rochdale mishap just about sums up how badly regarded Labour and Brown had become at that point.

 

[radamfi]

Try making a peak-time journey by road or rail round the home counties, then come back and say the south-east is not crowded.

I didn't say it wasn't crowded. I live in the South East outside London. It is just not the most crowded part of the country. It is far more crowded within the GLA boundary, yet they voted Remain. The really crowded Inner London was overwhelmingly Remain.

 

[jon0844]

Surely that "choice" was more determined by the fact that Cameron had a bigger vote share than Brown? In fact, I'm sure I remember Clegg going on record beforehand as saying the election result would be his determining factor. Furthermore, I don't think public mood would have supported a Clegg/Brown coalition, the election result kind of went that way because a lot of people wanted Labour out! The Rochdale mishap just about sums up how badly regarded Labour and Brown had become at that point.

Exactly. I can't imagine it going down well to go against the Tories who got more votes than Labour.

The Lib Dems weren't in charge. They had influence and I think they kept the Tories on a leash, which was a good thing. I don't see how there could have been a better outcome.

 

[bramling]

Exactly. I can't imagine it going down well to go against the Tories who got more votes than Labour.

The Lib Dems weren't in charge. They had influence and I think they kept the Tories on a leash, which was a good thing. I don't see how there could have been a better outcome.

I agree with all of this. I think on balance the 2010-5 government was probably one of the best in recent history. Certainly going back to the 1980s. I would find it hard to rate anything involving John Major, Tony Blair or Gordon Brown as good.

 

[Groningen]

Margaret Tatcher got the UK a discount from the EU and you are still not satisfied about the EU. Did than enter the EU at all. And so a tradedeal (and others) has to be made with every country seperatly. I would employ extra civil servants.

 

[dcsprior]

Surely that "choice" was more determined by the fact that Cameron had a bigger vote share than Brown?

I disagree. If the 3 biggest parties in a hung parliament were Labour/Tory/UKIP in that order, no-one would expect UKIP to go into coalition with Labour, or be surprised if they went into coalition with the Tories. Of course, they may be surprised/disappointed at the Tories for going into coalition with a party on the edge of the mainstream - similar to criticism of the DUP deal.

In fact, I'm sure I remember Clegg going on record beforehand as saying the election result would be his determining factor.

If that is correct then I'd change my mind somewhat about whether he did the right thing... I'd then think he did the wrong thing pre-election, but the right thing post-election

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that although the Lib Dems got a kicking for going into coalition, this may not always be the case. There have been 5 elections to the Scottish Parliament and only 1 has ended in majority government. I've not heard anyone criticising Labour/LDs for going into coalition here, or Labour/LDs/Tories/Greens for voting with the SNP government on individual issues on which they agree, or the SNP for relying on those votes - the difference is that we're not talking pairings which can be seen as selling out (or more importantly, be told this way by the media and spun as by this by their opponents)

 

[Howardh]

Try making a peak-time journey by road or rail round the home counties, then come back and say the south-east is not crowded.

As for London, not long before the referendum we did a little poll in a London train-crew depot as to voting intentions. I forget the exact figure, but the result was something along the lines of around 90% definitely planning to vote leave. The weekend after the referendum there was also a well-attended celebratory barbecue IIRC.

I certainly remember it being suggested in various analysis that the untypically (untypical compared to the rest of England) high pro-remain vote in London may have been influenced by a disproportionately high percentage of ethnic minority voters. Does anything think this may or may not be true? Going back to the mess-room poll above, it didn't seem to make much difference.

It was the poll I speak of above, combined with being on holiday in Darlington at the time where pretty much *every* house had a "vote leave" poster displayed, which made me think leave might actually be the verdict.

You are clearly obsessed by your crowded peak-time journeys! Have you considered this, if Brexit is the raging success everyone who voted for it says it will be, that will mean 1000's more jobs in and around London therefore 1000's more added to your peak-hour commuter journeys.
So what you actually want is Brexit to be a failure so there are fewer jobs and more sat on their backsides at home instead of commuting freeing up more seats. But if Brexit's a failure there's more chance of a speedy return to the EU.
Anyhow - a vote for Brexit is a vote for more jobs = more commuters. I can't believe someone voted for Brexit to get shut of commuters because their jobs had gone. It's just...barmy...

 

[bramling]

You are clearly obsessed by your crowded peak-time journeys! Have you considered this, if Brexit is the raging success everyone who voted for it says it will be, that will mean 1000's more jobs in and around London therefore 1000's more added to your peak-hour commuter journeys.
So what you actually want is Brexit to be a failure so there are fewer jobs and more sat on their backsides at home instead of commuting freeing up more seats. But if Brexit's a failure there's more chance of a speedy return to the EU.
Anyhow - a vote for Brexit is a vote for more jobs = more commuters. I can't believe someone voted for Brexit to get shut of commuters because their jobs had gone. It's just...barmy...

Complete straw man. For a start, there were plenty of different reasons for voting leave. Secondly the pressure on transport is to do with increasing population size in London forcing people to move ever further and further out of London, which is what’s been going on.

As usual, the remain contingent feel the need to put words in the mouth to try to advance an argument that leavers didn’t know what they were voting for.

 

[DarloRich]

Complete straw man. For a start, there were plenty of different reasons for voting leave. Secondly the pressure on transport is to do with increasing population size in London forcing people to move ever further and further out of London, which is what’s been going on.

As usual, the remain contingent feel the need to put words in the mouth to try to advance an argument that leavers didn’t know what they were voting for.

give us some of the many reasons! Hopefully with more behind them than vague words!

 

[EM2]

...the pressure on transport is to do with increasing population size in London forcing people to move ever further and further out of London, which is what’s been going on.

And there has just been a programme on TV, discussed on this forum, that shows how much of that increase in population has come from within the UK.

 

[fowler9]

Just trying to get my head around this, if all the jobs that immigrants are doing in London actually need doing then when the EU immigrants leave the jobs will still need doing by British people and thus the excess pressure on public services caused by immigration will not be relieved. London and the South East will still be overcrowded, just with Brits filling the vacuum left by people from other EU states. This is assuming that loads of jobs don't just cease to exist following Brexit.

The other thing I don't get was the person who said loads of neighbours had left the area because they couldn't stand the Europeans, I mean why? They just don't like Europeans despite the fact that for the large part in this day and age we all listen to the same music, watch the same films, eat an amazing variety of food.

 

[jon0844]

Just trying to get my head around this, if all the jobs that immigrants are doing in London actually need doing then when the EU immigrants leave the jobs will still need doing by British people and thus the excess pressure on public services caused by immigration will not be relieved. London and the South East will still be overcrowded, just with Brits filling the vacuum left by people from other EU states. This is assuming that loads of jobs don't just cease to exist following Brexit.

The other thing I don't get was the person who said loads of neighbours had left the area because they couldn't stand the Europeans, I mean why? They just don't like Europeans despite the fact that for the large part in this day and age we all listen to the same music, watch the same films, eat an amazing variety of food.

I doubt British people will want to shack up 4 to a room or live in a converted garage/shed in a garden, so they're more likely going to come into London from the suburbs where they can actually afford something vaguely livable.

So without the EU workers, we may see an increase in commuting.. and a fair few people in London suddenly finding their shoe box flats and bedsits can't be rented out to multiple occupants for vast profit.

 

[fowler9]

I doubt British people will want to shack up 4 to a room or live in a converted garage/shed in a garden, so they're more likely going to come into London from the suburbs where they can actually afford something vaguely livable.

So without the EU workers, we may see an increase in commuting.. and a fair few people in London suddenly finding their shoe box flats and bedsits can't be rented out to multiple occupants for vast profit.

We certainly live in interesting times as the old Chinese curse goes.

 

[bramling]

give us some of the many reasons! Hopefully with more behind them than vague words!

For a start, I object to having decisions made and/or implemented by an institution, the commission, whom I have no means of being able to hold to account. That alone would have made me vote leave.

 

[fowler9]

For a start, I object to having decisions made and/or implemented by an institution, the commission, whom I have no means of being able to hold to account. That alone would have made me vote leave.

Were you not able to vote in various EU elections? Did you vote for Theresa May and her minority government to be in charge or any of the people she put in various roles?

 

[Howardh]

For a start, I object to having decisions made and/or implemented by an institution, the commission, whom I have no means of being able to hold to account. That alone would have made me vote leave.

Go on, I'll bite.
Which decisions have been made/implemented by the commission which have had a negative affect on your life??

 

[Howardh]

Were you not able to vote in various EU elections? Did you vote for Theresa May and her minority government to be in charge or any of the people she put in various roles?

Shhh - don't mention the unelected House of Lords. At least in the European Commission you haven't got there because of daddy.

 

[bramling]

Were you not able to vote in various EU elections? Did you vote for Theresa May and her minority government to be in charge or any of the people she put in various roles?

How can I vote out Juncker?

As for Theresa May, as it happens I voted Conservative. However there is a mechanism for the British people to get rid of May. I can contribute to that process by voting for a different party, and if enough people do the same then she’s gone. In actual fact this wasn’t that far from actually happening in June..

 

[bramling]

Shhh - don't mention the unelected House of Lords. At least in the European Commission you haven't got there because of daddy.

Two wrongs do not make a right...

 

[fowler9]

How can I vote out Juncker?

As for Theresa May, as it happens I voted Conservative. However there is a mechanism for the British people to get rid of May. I can contribute to that process by voting for a different party, and if enough people do the same then she’s gone. In actual fact this wasn’t that far from actually happening..

If we leave the EU you will have absolutely no way of having any say in getting rid of Juncker who will still have a massive say in the UK's interactions with the EU.

 

[Jonny]

If we leave the EU you will have absolutely no way of having any say in getting rid of Juncker who will still have a massive say in the UK's interactions with the EU.

On the other hand, we will be out of reach if he tries anything too silly.

 

[fowler9]

On the other hand, we will be out of reach if he tries anything too silly.

Not like anything our own government do like making Boris foreign minister or having what is going on with Fallon.

 

[najaB]

On the other hand, we will be out of reach if he tries anything too silly.

And exactly what kind of 'silly' did you have in mind that wouldn't have required agreement of all member states?

 

[DarloRich]

For a start, I object to having decisions made and/or implemented by an institution, the commission, whom I have no means of being able to hold to account. That alone would have made me vote leave.

I think there may be some misunderstanding of Eu and it's operations. May I suggest this website: https://fullfact.org/europe/how-eu-works-who-runs-eu/

I would also take a look at supremacy of laws and how we find ourselves in this position: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-law-and-uk/

I know these are facts from experts ( perhaps even fake news if they don't meet your own agenda) so not needed in relation to Brexit where uniformed wibble is king butwe should all try to at least understand what we are talking about.

Put simply: Laws are drafted by the Commission, then approved by the Council and European Parliament then enacted by the commission acting with the national legislative bodies.

The Council is made up of Government ministers ( who we voted for) and the parliament is made up of MEP's (who we voted for if we can be bothered in the UK). The commission is made up of 28 commissioners ( one per member state) of which one is proposed as chairman. He is elected by the voted for ( if we can be bothered in the UK) parliament. We don't have a vote for commissioners but our commissioner is appointed by our government, who we do vote for.

The EU only has the powers our elected government gives to it via the treaties that established it. Laws cannot be made unless permitted by a particular Treaty article allowing the EU to act on that topic. We have to bring these treaties into our laws and that requires a vote by our elected representatives. We can challenge those powers in the evil European Court if we feel the EU to breached it's powers which we gave it. Note: Our government that we elect hands these powers over.

The commission that we didn't vote for but our elected representatives did ( almost like our cabinet?) is responsible for implementing legislation by asking the democratically elected national governments to incorporate the EU law into their own: that Supremacy of laws thing again (do some reading there. It is interesting if dry. I suggests you compare the views of our elected government with those of other EU nations.)

So, while you are right that the commission is not elected you greatly simplify the process of passing and implementing into UK law a piece EU legislation. I also ask what the response of Farage and the Kipper army would be to an elected head of the EU along with an elected EU government holding executive power!

It is seems odd that there is such hatred of an un elected body making law in Europe yet acceptance of an un elected body making law in the UK!

I agree with all of this. I think on balance the 2010-5 government was probably one of the best in recent history. Certainly going back to the 1980s. I would find it hard to rate anything involving John Major, Tony Blair or Gordon Brown as good.

Shall we post the list of the achievements of the Blair government again?

 

[Howardh]

I'm still waiting to find out which "diktats" handed down by the EU/EC have negatively affected anyone's lives here?

Anyone, or can I take that as a no and we move on to try to find another reason to leave the EU....

 

[najaB]

I'm still waiting to find out which "diktats" handed down by the EU/EC have negatively affected anyone's lives here?

I was quite a fan of straight bananas....

 

[Howardh]

I was quite a fan of straight bananas....

Maybe Pestminster is getting to me, but I had a very rude thought there. I'll go and wash my brain out with chlorine - before the US pour it all over our chickens

 

[BlythPower]

Just trying to get my head around this, if all the jobs that immigrants are doing in London actually need doing then when the EU immigrants leave the jobs will still need doing by British people and thus the excess pressure on public services caused by immigration will not be relieved. London and the South East will still be overcrowded, just with Brits filling the vacuum left by people from other EU states. This is assuming that loads of jobs don't just cease to exist following Brexit.

Post-Brexit, those jobs may well be filled not by Brits but by 'brown people'. The exact opposite of what the Brextremists thought they were voting for.