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South Wales 'Metro' updates

gareth950

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It's worth quoting more of Lee Waters here as he makes so much sense:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/south-wales-metro-being-set-13723833

He told colleagues there needed to be a solution to traffic problems on the M4 “that will last” and that the Metro had to be fully funded to ensure it could be a success.

Mr Waters said he thinks the formula used to justify a new road as the best way to deal with congestion at the Brynglas tunnels “takes the most optimistic view of the possible benefits” but he says that the projections for the Cardiff Metro “take the most pessimistic view.

“Transport officials have suggested to the public inquiry that of the 11,000 journeys made every hour in peak times on the M4 the metro will - at best - only take 200 off the roads.

“I fear the project is being set up to fail. It is being starved of investment by the UK Government cancelling electrification and by the disappearance of EU grants because of Brexit, and by the road building lobby who are trying to minimise its impact”.

“I don’t believe the proposed M4 relief road will be anything more than an expensive stop-gap,” he said.

He said the formula being used to justify a new M4 as the best way to deal with congestion at the Brynglas tunnels takes the most optimistic view of the possible benefits.

But he said that the Metro calculations are “pessimistic” as transport officials.

“The projections for the Cardiff Metro take the most pessimistic view. Transport officials have suggested to the public inquiry that of the 11,000 journeys made every hour in peak times on the M4 the metro will – at best – only take 200 off the roads.

“I don’t buy it. But if this really is the case – if it will only have a minimal impact on rush-hour traffic – why are we not setting out to develop a public transport system that will tackle peak hour M4 demand?”

He believes the Metro could be a success but it will take time and crucially, he says, it needs funding.

“It’s going to take time, it’s a long term project. It’s not going to make an impact immediately but if it’s fully funded and linked up with buses and the train network and is fully integrated along side measures like park and rides, bus corridors etc then it could make a difference.

“I am concerned it’s being undermined because it suits the agendas of those who are saying we should be putting all our money in the M4.

“I think we should be working on the Metro with gusto so it can make as much of an impact as possible so we can persuade people to switch their cars for public transport.

“If we make cars the most convenient way to get around with new roads, people will use a car.

“However, if we invest in quality public transport that turns up on time and without having to wait a long time then people will use that. You only have to look at London to see that.

“People aren’t addicted to their cars. Putting all this money into the M4, it will end up being dribs and drabs for the Metro and it won’t have the impact it needs to have”.

He said that experts were already warning that a fourth lane was needed around Newport and expansion is needed at Port Tablot.

“I am just so frustrated that we’re repeating the mistakes of the past,” he said.
 
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Dai Corner

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The two schemes have different purposes. The M4 relief road is to facilitate road traffic (freight and passenger) between southern England and South Wales west of Newport. The Metro is mainly to carry passengers between Cardiff city centre and the suburbs and Valleys. That's why the Metro will have little impact on the traffic on the M4 through Newport.

We could do with both but WG can't afford both.
 

Llanigraham

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So, the secrecy is because we will see a repeat of another 2003 style 15 year stitch up? Again? :(

Why can't the Welsh Govt just admit that everything that Lee Waters and previously Jenny Rathbone are saying is spot on? Lee Waters is right - the road lobby are ensuring they get their way at the expense of the environment and public transport - as they have done since the 1960s. The scrapping of the Severn Bridge tolls, the cancelling of electrification beyond Cardiff, the current political spat over the funding for the next franchise. Public transport in Wales will be screwed over for another 15 years. Again.

Hang on!
You can't blame WAG for first the first bit highlighted, since it was Westminster that refused to sanction it, even Maybot stated that on TV lasy week, and the second part is also partly because Grayling will not talk to them.
.
 

Gareth Marston

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Hang on!
You can't blame WAG for first the first bit highlighted, since it was Westminster that refused to sanction it, even Maybot stated that on TV lasy week, and the second part is also partly because Grayling will not talk to them.
.

OK your boys are having a spat with the Tory's - we get that however the obsession with the M4 Relief road most expensive blue route is coming from within the top hierarchy of Welsh Labour/Welsh Government its blinding obviously that its being prioritized over the new franchise and South Wales Metro by Welsh Government. Whilst there's near universal support for better rail services and the metro from the public and all parts of the business /political spectrum the M4 Relief Road Blue Route is highly contentious and divisive even within Welsh Labour. The consensus position is closest to the cheaper black route so we have money left over for other things Do Carwyn and Ken not get this? or have they been taken in by the snake oil salesmen in he road lobby?
 

Envoy

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Day Corner is spot on - the Metro really is most concerned with the Cardiff valley lines and the nearby coastal route. The M4 at Newport is mainly carrying traffic between south Wales and England - as well as providing for local hops. Apart from the ATW Cheltenham route (along with XC to the Midlands), it is GWR that carry the bulk of rail passengers on this ‘M4’ route. During the next year, it is the GWR that will see the biggest capacity increases with the introduction of the Class 800’s on the London run and 4 coach HST’s going to the south-west along with 5 coach Turbo’s on the Portsmouth route. I hope GWR will make it widely known about these capacity increases so that more people will be induced to not use their cars.

The Welsh Government are quite right in wishing to see a new south of Newport M4. Should this go-ahead, I hope that they do not downgrade the present route to an ordinary ‘A’ road maintained by the local Council. (We can all see the botched repairs done to Cardiff’s Eastern Avenue by that Council). The present north of Newport M4 will remain the main link to the Midlands as it connects to the A449 at Coldra. It would be irrational of the WG to not control the entire route to Cardiff.

PS. It is the BLACK ROUTE that is favoured by the Welsh Government:>
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/fly-through-video-shows-route-10018072
 

Dai Corner

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Let's not forget the vast sums being spent on the A465 Heads of the Valleys road. There is some very serious civil engineering going on to make it continuous dual carriageway all the way from Neath to Abergavenny where it joins the already high quality A40/M50 route to the English Midlands.

When competed, it should relieve the M4 through Newport to some extent.
 

gareth950

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OK your boys are having a spat with the Tory's - we get that however the obsession with the M4 Relief road most expensive blue route is coming from within the top hierarchy of Welsh Labour/Welsh Government its blinding obviously that its being prioritized over the new franchise and South Wales Metro by Welsh Government. Whilst there's near universal support for better rail services and the metro from the public and all parts of the business /political spectrum the M4 Relief Road Blue Route is highly contentious and divisive even within Welsh Labour. The consensus position is closest to the cheaper black route so we have money left over for other things Do Carwyn and Ken not get this? or have they been taken in by the snake oil salesmen in he road lobby?

You are getting your blue and black routes mixed up Gareth.
I agree with you entirely otherwise.

Carwyn Jones has been at the helm of Welsh Labour for 8 years now. He's bound to be gone by the next Welsh elections in 2021. He obviously wants to leave a very lasting legacy on SE Wales.
 
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Gareth Marston

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Day Corner is spot on - the Metro really is most concerned with the Cardiff valley lines and the nearby coastal route. The M4 at Newport is mainly carrying traffic between south Wales and England - as well as providing for local hops. Apart from the ATW Cheltenham route (along with XC to the Midlands), it is GWR that carry the bulk of rail passengers on this ‘M4’ route. During the next year, it is the GWR that will see the biggest capacity increases with the introduction of the Class 800’s on the London run and 4 coach HST’s going to the south-west along with 5 coach Turbo’s on the Portsmouth route. I hope GWR will make it widely known about these capacity increases so that more people will be induced to not use their cars.

The Welsh Government are quite right in wishing to see a new south of Newport M4. Should this go-ahead, I hope that they do not downgrade the present route to an ordinary ‘A’ road maintained by the local Council. (We can all see the botched repairs done to Cardiff’s Eastern Avenue by that Council). The present north of Newport M4 will remain the main link to the Midlands as it connects to the A449 at Coldra. It would be irrational of the WG to not control the entire route to Cardiff.

PS. It is the BLACK ROUTE that is favoured by the Welsh Government:>
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/fly-through-video-shows-route-10018072

Whatever color is called its not actually going to be a solution as induced traffic will just make congestion in other places worse. We know from world experience that new roads generate new traffic and congestion just finds new places to become worse surrounding the new road. I will keep saying this as no supporters of relief roads can answer the question. Can you name the country in the world that has solved road traffic congestion by building new roads?

If it were that simple then traffic would be flowing freely all over the world - it doesn't no one has found a roads based solution. You can shout about the economy and the woes of congestion all you like but all your doing supporting the M4 Relief Road is planning a bigger traffic jam elsewhere. The Metro should be prioritized as it will give people a quality alternative and help remove traffic from the rods for the benefit of road users as well.
 

Gareth Marston

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You are getting your blue and black routes mixed up Gareth. The blue route is the cheaper, more environmentally friendly, less controversial route. The black route is the one that will swallow up the Welsh Govt's entire borrowing powers, leaving no money left for any other infrastructure projects.

I agree with you entirely otherwise.

Carwyn Jones has been at the helm of Welsh Labour for 8 years now. He's bound to be gone by the next Welsh elections in 2021. He obviously wants to leave a very lasting legacy on SE Wales.

One of increased traffic congestion, poorer economic performance and a third world public transport system.
 

daikilo

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Let's not forget the vast sums being spent on the A465 Heads of the Valleys road. There is some very serious civil engineering going on to make it continuous dual carriageway all the way from Neath to Abergavenny where it joins the already high quality A40/M50 route to the English Midlands.

When competed, it should relieve the M4 through Newport to some extent.

Probably only 1-2 lanes worth at best and maybe not at the same peak times. I tend to think the Newport relief road is required anyway and, in the short term, the only way to provide some relief to the M4 is to remove local traffic by shutting junctions in the peaks, and this is where rail could help.
 

Envoy

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Press reports today say that Cardiff Council wish to see a new arena built in the city and that they are considering having it in the Bay area. They say that by being in the Bay, it would then justify the expense of having a tram system to the Bay. Now, obviously, when a big event takes place in such a building, thousands of people arrive at once and thousands of people leave at once - just as they do at the stadium. After such an event, the best way for the people to disperse is to go to the Central Station for their relevant rail route home. If such a large building were to be built in the Bay, then you would need a massive number of trams to shift these people back to the Central Station - unless they walked the just over 1 mile distance. Then, for most of the time, these trams (& drivers) would not be needed in such great numbers. Just shows how much Cardiff Council understand about transportation systems!

QUOTE:> Coun Goodway said that if thousands of people were using a site in Cardiff Bay, a Metro link would be needed to "facilitate the mass movement of people".

"At the moment when you consider the number of people travelling to the Bay, frankly you don't need much more than the facility at Disneyland. That's not a tram system”.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/work-new-15000-capacity-arena-13723353
 

edwin_m

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There's a theory that it's best to put a stadium at a bit of a walk from the station, as it spreads out the flow of people coming out after the match/event.
 

gareth950

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There's a theory that it's best to put a stadium at a bit of a walk from the station, as it spreads out the flow of people coming out after the match/event.

Obviously that theory was not followed for the Millennium Stadium!

Seriously, Cardiff does not need anymore stadiums. Period.
 

allaction

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I would beg to differ - this isn’t a stadium: it’s a 15000 capacity covered arena.

The original site in Cardiff was going to be near Callaghan Square, a 5-10 minutes walk from the back entrance of Cardiff Central station: ideal for concertgoers who are rail passengers.
 

daikilo

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And the massive traffic jams - which went from east Cardiff to the Severn Bridges for around 6 hours yesterday - following a crash, will surely be a boost for those who say a new motorway needs to be built.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/live-updates-air-ambulance-called-13742561

The location of the accident seems to me to be very close to where the new motorway would rejoin the M4 before the split for the bridges so possibly of no benefit if the police close the road! It is true that if the accident were on a separated section then at least part of the traffic could continue.

As regards "not doing anything in a hurry because the new build for the future law is rubbish", either I misunderstood or I despair. How about adding a pair of railtracks alongside the new motorway to sort out congestion around Newport station.
 

Gareth Marston

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And the massive traffic jams - which went from east Cardiff to the Severn Bridges for around 6 hours yesterday - following a crash, will surely be a boost for those who say a new motorway needs to be built.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/live-updates-air-ambulance-called-13742561

QUOTE:>"M4 closed for more than five hours after serious crash”.

Then you need to build a duplicate motorway for the whole length of the M4 in Wales in case there's a crash anywhere along its length.

If you can identify how it will get around Cardiff without demolishing substantial parts of the city I will be mightily impressed!
 

Gareth Marston

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Here some more South Walian road chaos

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/st-davids-car-park-causing-1900591
St David’s car park causing huge delays for drivers
COMPLAINTS from shoppers trapped in their cars for up to three hours as they tried to exit a car park have prompted a rethink of city centre roads.

and theirs no way the so called M4 Relief road will do anything about that......
 

Gareth Marston

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The location of the accident seems to me to be very close to where the new motorway would rejoin the M4 before the split for the bridges so possibly of no benefit if the police close the road! It is true that if the accident were on a separated section then at least part of the traffic could continue.

As regards "not doing anything in a hurry because the new build for the future law is rubbish", either I misunderstood or I despair. How about adding a pair of railtracks alongside the new motorway to sort out congestion around Newport station.

I have to admit there's left hand and right hand issues going on within Welsh Government- pass a new jazzy law that's cool and different - The Future Generation's and then take no account of what it says with big road proposals. Then there's Ministers pledging to end Valleys Overcrowding by promising no one stands more than 15 minutes and then they get excited about Light Rail and Trams that are designed for short distance standing passengers....
 

Dai Corner

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Here some more South Walian road chaos

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/st-davids-car-park-causing-1900591
St David’s car park causing huge delays for drivers
COMPLAINTS from shoppers trapped in their cars for up to three hours as they tried to exit a car park have prompted a rethink of city centre roads.

and theirs no way the so called M4 Relief road will do anything about that......

Together with the elimination of the tolls, it will make it easier for shoppers to go to Bristol / Cribbs Causeway, though Bristol has traffic problems too.
 

oglord

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As regards "not doing anything in a hurry because the new build for the future law is rubbish", either I misunderstood or I despair. How about adding a pair of railtracks alongside the new motorway to sort out congestion around Newport station.
Where would you put a station on this new bypassed stretch that would not be massively inconvenient for passengers wanting the city centre or changing to the North & West Route / Ebbw valley?
 

gareth950

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Looks like there's wobbling over the M4 Relief road being given the green light which hopefully is good news for public transport. CBI attacking Future Generations Commissioner

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-41558077
CBI Wales criticises 'negative' future generations commission
Of course the CBI is going to call for the abolition of the future generations commisioner and law, as it requires Welsh Govt to take into account the social, environmental, and long term impact of their decisions on future generations, not just how decisions can deliver a short term economic boost ready for the next election. Unfortunately for the CBI, this means the economy will not always win out reagrding political decisions in future.
 

gareth950

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Together with the elimination of the tolls, it will make it easier for shoppers to go to Bristol / Cribbs Causeway, though Bristol has traffic problems too.

Abolition of the severn bridge tolls serves no purpose other than to be used as a populist vote winner. At the start of the year Alan Cairns was talking about a £3 free flowing toll each way. Then an election came along and surprise! The tolls are being scrapped! Traffic congestion caused by the tolls abolition will be horrendous. However it's a decision where no mainstream party could be seen to be going against forfear of upsetting the motorist.

Same as the NHS in Wales. Councils in Wales are screaming for the cuts to their budgets to stop after 7 years of austerity, whilst the NHS gets more money. However, if Welsh Govt cut funding for the NHS the other political parties would scream and scream and scream about it until the next election.
 
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Dai Corner

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Abolition of the severn bridge tolls serves no purpose other than to be used as a populist vote winner. At the start of the year Alan Cairns was talking about a £3 free flowing toll each way. Then an election came along and surprise! The tolls are being scrapped! Traffic congestion caused by the tolls abolition will be horrendous. However it's a decision where no mainstream party could be seen to be going against forfear of upsetting the motorist.

Same as the NHS in Wales. Councils in Wales are screaming for the cuts to their budgets to stop after 7 years of austerity, whilst the NHS gets more money. However, if Welsh Govt cut funding for the NHS the other political parties would scream and scream and scream about it until the next election.

Perhaps they should toll the Brynglas tunnels and give the money to Welsh Councils?:lol:
 

daikilo

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Where would you put a station on this new bypassed stretch that would not be massively inconvenient for passengers wanting the city centre or changing to the North & West Route / Ebbw valley?

No station, it would be for non-stop freight/LE/NR trains etc. just like the new motorway. It would potentially free-up paths for local trains stopping/reversing at Newport station.
 

gareth950

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Serves no purpose other than to free people from paying unnecessary tolls and improving journey times.

'Unnecessary?' So where is the cost of maintenance going to come from then?

The government's own studies expect traffic to rise by 20% which will induce horrendous traffic congestion both sides of the border.
 

Gareth Marston

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'Unnecessary?' So where is the cost of maintenance going to come from then?

The government's own studies expect traffic to rise by 20% which will induce horrendous traffic congestion both sides of the border.

No doubt well get someone posting that it makes the M4 Relief Road more imperative. However can they answer what happens to all that extra traffic when it gets to Cardiff Gate and Coryton Interchange?
 

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