Wheelchair-bound peer couldn't board after driver refused to request pushchair moved

[AlterEgo]

You didn't explain it's the law to collapse a buggy in your first reply and you could have only about her rights protected by law .

That isn't the law at all, and I give up. Enjoy your afternoon.

 

[baz962]

That isn't the law at all, and I give up. Enjoy your afternoon.

Ah that will be because someone else Matt someone or other suggested so but during our debate .

 

[Antman]

Well this debate doesn't seem to have got very far.

Bus pulls up at a stop, driver activates the pre recorded message asking for the wheelchair bay to be vacated. The person or persons in the wheelchair bay indicate that they are unable to do so.

What should the driver do next?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Make a PA that the bus will not be proceeding until the occupant of the bay moves, then get the newspaper out. (Traditionally switch off the engine, but that doesn't work any more because of hybrids).

Might not be the official line, but it's been used for years.

 

[Wolfie]

So we have one side of the argument and the driver should be sacked, righto then! :roll:

After the Court ruling in which it was declared that wheelchair passengers have equal rights to every other passenger there is no requirement for the driver to ask anyone to move, just as they cant ask any other passenger to move.

Its called equal rights!

BUT TfL's byelaws make it clear, as do the notices on the buses, that wheelchair users have priority. That may not be the case outside London.

TfL have clearly instructed bus operators that drivers ARE to ask buggy users to move. Failure to do so on the part of a driver constitutes a failure to follow a reasonable management instruction - which is a dismissal offence.

Whilst disabled people are quite capable of using our own voice when protecting our basic rights in an unequal world this situation is very challenging as a wheelchair user or assistance dog owner cant very well bord the vehicle on spec and potentially have to get off again.

I am sorry if I offend any acceptional buggy owners on here but my experience is that the majority of such people on public transport care about nobody but themselves and sometimes can't drag themselves away from their phone long enough to stop their infant screaming let alone show any kind of curtacy to fellow passengers.

Have I simply been unlucky?

I do have friends with kids and even some of them are as guilty but I do stress SOME.

True words from one who had experienced it first hand...

It doesnt it puts the onus on tfl to deter hogging the wheelchair space through fines and prosecutions.There is provision in the London transport bylaws for prosecuting this behaviour. One or two high profile cases ill act as a deterrent against parents doing it again.

Spot on! That will never happen though if bone-idle uncaring drivers fail to initiate the process but rather chose to drive off and leave the disabled person on the pavement - hence my desire to "encourage" them by putting their jobs on the line if they fail to behave properly...

I doubt there is much more to it, there is a persistent minority of London bus drivers who simply can't be arsed.

Too damn right!

Rather incredible you suggest it should be up to the disabled to assert their rights personally rather than have them protected for them, in law, by the service provider.

She was not even on the bus! Are you suggesting she should have leant forward and bellowed down the bus, at someone she perhaps could not see?

Spot on!

 

[Antman]

Make a PA that the bus will not be proceeding until the occupant of the bay moves, then get the newspaper out. (Traditionally switch off the engine, but that doesn't work any more because of hybrids).

Might not be the official line, but it's been used for years.

Controller will soon be on the radio telling the driver to get moving.

 

[baz962]

BUT TfL's byelaws make it clear, as do the notices on the buses, that wheelchair users have priority. That may not be the case outside London.

TfL have clearly instructed bus operators that drivers ARE to ask buggy users to move. Failure to do so on the part of a driver constitutes a failure to follow a reasonable management instruction - which is a dismissal offence.

He asks they don't respond or refuse.

 

[Antman]

BUT TfL's byelaws make it clear, as do the notices on the buses, that wheelchair users have priority. That may not be the case outside London.

TfL have clearly instructed bus operators that drivers ARE to ask buggy users to move. Failure to do so on the part of a driver constitutes a failure to follow a reasonable management instruction - which is a dismissal offence.

The driver does this by playing the pre recorded announcement, if nobody is willing to move what happens next?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Controller will soon be on the radio telling the driver to get moving.

Policy needs to support drivers in this case.

 

[Wolfie]

I believe the liability is on the operator to enforce the wheelchair space(Not tfl or the driver)

The operator can place it into the drivers contracts however no operators have done so because the financial penalty for them is not sufficent enough for them to compell the driver to move the pushchair. Indeed the fine for delaying the bus is bigger and that is wrong.

The driver should be allowed to sit with his newspapers out until the pushchair is folded.

When it has happened on my buses, I have advised passengers to make a complaint and if the complaint isn't satisfactory to sue TfL/the bus company

..and in such a circumstance TfL should explicitly take compliance in mind when renewing contracts. Loss of a few juicy contracts for non-compliance won't half work to persuade bus operators...

There is no point in keep repeating the same thing, it's just not going to happen.

It is first come first served and you can moan all you want but it's not going to change.

As a parent of a 10 month old who would never dream of leaving a disabled person on the kerb because I couldn't be bothered to assist I am fed up to the back teeth with the apologists for bone-idle employees who clearly don't belong in a service industry and lazy self-centred parents.

A few sacked bus drivers and if necessary arrests of truculent parents and it will goddamn change.

 

[Antman]

As a parent of a 10 month old who would never dream of leaving a disabled person on the kerb because I couldn't be bothered to assist I am fed up to the back teeth with the apologists for bone-idle employees who clearly don't belong in a service industry and lazy self-centred parents.

A few sacked bus drivers and if necessary arrests of truculent parents and it will goddamn change.

Yes great idea, not as though there is a shortage of bus drivers eh? And do you really think that the police are going to arrest anybody?

Meanwhile back in the real world...................

 

[Wolfie]

Yes great idea, not as though there is a shortage of bus drivers eh? And do you really think that the police are going to arrest anybody?

Meanwhile back in the real world...................

Well that is where being a senior politician comes in - put it this way, some bone-idle PC doesn't do his job and a senior politician writes to the Commissioner of the Met and in parallel ensures a story, ideally complete with the PCs name, in the Standard. Said story includes quotes from the bus company about how their employee complied with TfL's byelaws/policy and was let down by the Met.. three guesses what happens next time...

As for the excuse of there being a shortage of bus drivers all I will say is that is a pathetic excuse advanced by and in support of the lazy - if his/her actions financially hurts the employer said individual will be out of a job anyway.

 

[matt_world2004]

..and in such a circumstance TfL should explicitly take compliance in mind when renewing contracts. Loss of a few juicy contracts for non-compliance won't half work to persuade bus operators...

Classing refusal to fold puschairs as anti social behaviour would actually mean the bus companies do not get fined for delaying their service waiting for the pram to be folded will help

 

[Mwanesh]

Have we heard the drivers side.Most companies once you are out of the cab thats a sackable offence.Laws or no laws some people will never learn.The driver is on his own most times do you think he wants to argue all the time.How many of us are willing to back a driver in need of help most times its zero.In London it is just to scary to think of the bus driver.

 

[AlterEgo]

Have we heard the drivers side.Most companies once you are out of the cab thats a sackable offence.Laws or no laws some people will never learn.The driver is on his own most times do you think he wants to argue all the time.How many of us are willing to back a driver in need of help most times its zero.In London it is just to scary to think of the bus driver.

Nobody is suggesting he should leave his cab - have you read the thread? What's scary about the bus driver's situation here, please?

 

[Antman]

Well that is where being a senior politician comes in - put it this way, some bone-idle PC doesn't do his job and a senior politician writes to the Commissioner of the Met and in parallel ensures a story, ideally complete with the PCs name, in the Standard. Said story includes quotes from the bus company about how their employee complied with TfL's byelaws/policy and was let down by the Met.. three guesses what happens next time...

As for the excuse of there being a shortage of bus drivers all I will say is that is a pathetic excuse advanced by and in support of the lazy - if his/her actions financially hurts the employer said individual will be out of a job anyway.

It's pathetic talking about sacking bus drivers when they've done nothing wrong, it's difficult enough recruiting drivers as it is.

 

[Wolfie]

It's pathetic talking about sacking bus drivers when they've done nothing wrong, it's difficult enough recruiting drivers as it is.

And this statement is the root of our disagreement. I do not believe, given the TfL byelaw, the notices on buses, the Supreme Court verdict, the fact that TfL claim that briefing has gone on etc that the driver has "done nothing wrong" - far from it, I believe that his inaction potentially constitutes legitimate grounds for his dismissal.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's pathetic talking about sacking bus drivers when they've done nothing wrong, it's difficult enough recruiting drivers as it is.

The bus driver did do something wrong, namely he failed to take any steps at all to ensure the wheelchair user could board.

TfL's own guidance says

"When a wheelchair user wants to board the bus, and the wheelchair priority space is occupied by a buggy or pram, the bus driver will use an automated iBus message and if necessary the PA system to alert passengers."

Given that the driver didn't even ask the buggy owner to move the buggy, on what basis do you think he's done nothing wrong?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Apart from playing the pre recorded message what are drivers supposed to do?

I've not gone through ten pages of wibble, so apologies if others answered this. But they can do what they frequently do: engine off, paper out. Even the Supreme Court referred to it as an option in the official judgment!

My experience is a significant minority don't even play the announcement, they just shrug and refuse to deploy the ramp if they see a buggy on board. They make no efforts to accommodate the passenger that the law says has priority. Why? Who knows, but my opinion born from bitter past experience is that it's pure bone-idleness.

 

[matt_world2004]

Buzzfeed are reporting that two announcements are going to be recorded into ibus including one saying that the bus will wait until the wheelchair area is clear, also comments from the article appear to indicate passengers were willing to fold their buggies amd the driver ignored them

 

[matt_world2004]

I've not gone through ten pages of wibble, so apologies if others answered this. But they can do what they frequently do: engine off, paper out. Even the Supreme Court referred to it as an option in the official judgment!

My experience is a significant minority don't even play the announcement, they just shrug and refuse to deploy the ramp if they see a buggy on board. They make no efforts to accommodate the passenger that the law says has priority. Why? Who knows, but my opinion born from bitter past experience is that it's pure bone-idleness.

In circumstances like this however tfl do not class refusal to fold buggies as anti social behaviour so the bus company is fined for the resulting delay

 

[6Gman]

Well this debate doesn't seem to have got very far.

Bus pulls up at a stop, driver activates the pre recorded message asking for the wheelchair bay to be vacated. The person or persons in the wheelchair bay indicate that they are unable to do so.

What should the driver do next?

Unable? How can they be unable to move?

(Genuine question.)

 

[Antman]

Unable? How can they be unable to move?

(Genuine question.)

A lone female with a child asleep and a buggy full of shopping for example.

 

[yorkie]

But I didn't say the onus was on her because of her privelage I said she as an MP although not in exact words that she would know the follies of running to a timetable and the fines etc imposed on a bus company.

What do you mean by this?

And I didn't say she would have him sacked but I bet she would.

How could she? This is very bizarre.

When you reply to my posts you say this happens in our society or this happens , so does things like the driver being in a lose lose wrong but happens .

The driver must comply with the law. Do you deny that?

Oh and you say unless there is a compelling reason e.g a known liar . She's a member of parliament and I have never known an MP to tell the truth or bend it you know that bit where they make his election promise or that then break it well that's lying whatever way you dress it up .

You are actually saying members of parliament are lying about being disabled? Seriously?

 

[yorkie]

A lone female with a child asleep and a buggy full of shopping for example.

These are not luggage areas for items such as shopping. Are you suggesting otherwise?

 

[matt_world2004]

A lone female with a child asleep and a buggy full of shopping for example.

Backpack for the shopping baby carrier for the baby problem solved not rocket science.

 

[Antman]

These are not luggage areas for items such as shopping. Are you suggesting otherwise?

No but many buggies do have a storage area underneath for shopping etc.

 

[Antman]

Backpack for the shopping baby carrier for the baby problem solved not rocket science.

Another ridiculous suggestion.

 

[matt_world2004]

Another ridiculous suggestion.

Why someone. On my bus is wearing exactly that set up now they are also carrying two suitcases prams folded in the luggage area

 

[Tetchytyke]

A lone female with a child asleep and a buggy full of shopping for example.

Unwilling =/= unable.

Up here in the land of two buses an hour, it's amazing how quickly these buggies get folded at the bus stop if the alternative is a 30-minutes wait in the rain.