Perth station redevelopment - ScotRail & Network Rail in discussions

[Clansman]

At long last, this absolute bomb site is finally looking set to be getting the redevelopment it deserves.

Many of us who use this station on a regular basis will know how unsuitable it currently is. It's current state is an insult to those who designed and built it, but never the less, exciting times ahead...

ScotRail says it is hoping to redevelop Perth Railway Station in the future.

The transport operator says it is in talks with a number of groups in Perth about its long-term ambitions for the hub. This comes as a new Costa Coffee and Travelines shop opened in the station’s main entrance last week, as part of a drive to improve the facilities on offer at the station.

A spokesperson for ScotRail said it is currently redeveloping Dundee, Stirling, Motherwell and Inverness stations, and is looking at which Scottish stations to include in its next phase of upgrades.

The spokesperson said: “We are talking locally with others in Perth on plans to redevelop.

“It is aspirational at the moment, but ScotRail would like to see something done.

“What this would look like, we don’t know, but there are a lot of customers using the services and a lot of commuters change at Perth Station.

“Our aspiration is for Perth Station to very much be the gateway to the Highlands, and for that we want it to have nice facilities and for locals to use station as a community hub as well.”

A spokesperson for Perth and Kinross Council added: “We can confirm discussions between the council, ScotRail and Network Rail on the redevelopment of Perth Station have begun and will continue.”

Councillor Willie Wilson, who represents the local authority’s Perth City South ward, said: “Perth and Kinross Council have a plan for an integrated bus and rail interchange based on Perth Railway Station.

Progress on this has been bedevilled by the slow responses from Network Rail in particular, and also other partnerships in the rail industry.

“I hope that the latest initiatives will see things really moving forward.”

He continued: “Perth bus station is a disgrace and needs to be replaced.

“The ideal solution is to have a proper bus and rail interchange by using some of the many acres of railway ground that exists [at Perth Train Station].”

The busy station sees regular ScotRail trains travelling across the country, as well as daily East Coast trains to London King’s Cross and the overnight Caledonian Sleeper service to London Euston.

Talks between ScotRail and other parties on the future of Perth Train Station will continue.
Perth Railway Station

This comes as a new coffee shop and newsagents officially opens at Perth Railway Station.

Costa Coffee and Travelines officially opened to the public on Monday last week in the main entrance of the Fair City’s rail hub, selling hot drinks, books and newspapers.

The unit replaces the old Cafe Express and WH Smith kiosk previously in the station.

Peter O’Connell, ScotRail’s head of station development, said: “Our stations are increasingly community hubs where both rail customers and locals use their facilities.

“Many of us enjoy a cup of coffee or hot drink before travelling or when meeting friends, so in partnership with Costa, we’re providing good quality facilities for Perth Station customers. The station also boasts a lovely biodiversity garden - complete with a flock of ducks - which is a tranquil space in the busy city hub.

“The station team and volunteers who look after the garden welcome everyone - customers and locals, to come and enjoy the facilities.”

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/scotrail-hopes-to-redevelop-station-11093120

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Great news for a key Scottish city

 

[47271]

The station also boasts a lovely biodiversity garden - complete with a flock of ducks - which is a tranquil space in the busy city hub.

What? The only biodiversity I'm aware of is birch trees growing out of walls all over the site and pigeons everywhere. I've never seen or heard any ducks, or a 'lovely' garden, what are they on about?

Also no mention in the piece of Network Rail's plans to do away with P3 and P4 and open up the frontage of the original station building, or that Caledonian Sleeper are about to give some useful purpose to the first floor of that building.

If Scotrail want to do something that might satisfy our 'long term ambitions for the hub' then might I suggest that they persuade someone to instal a cash machine?

This story, with its briefing against NR, looks like a failure of the Scotrail Alliance above all else.

 

[Clansman]

What? The only biodiversity I'm aware of is birch trees growing out of walls all over the site and pigeons everywhere. I've never seen or heard any ducks, or a 'lovely' garden, what are they on about?

The garden sits fenced off from the public, in between P2 and the car park (Station Hotel one), where it has a memorial comprising of a plaque and a duck pond, in memory of an ex-employee who died in Syria.

Often used as a retreat for staff wanting a quick cig' out of public view.

Also no mention in the piece of Network Rail's plans to do away with P3 and P4 and open up the frontage of the original station building, or that Caledonian Sleeper are about to give some useful purpose to the first floor of that building.

What is the actual benefit in filling in P3 & 4? After seeing this in the Scotland Route Study, I can't help but think that it would further demonise P1 & 2 from the rest. Absolutely pointless if they do.

This story, with its briefing against NR, looks like a failure of the Scotrail Alliance above all else.

It's the Daily Record. Hardly surprising.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There is sure a lot of wibble in that article IMO. Im inclined to agree with 47271.

The one point that really does ring true is the embarrasment that is Perth Bus Station and if a bus rail and taxi interchange could be created then so much the better.

 

[cf111]

A grim, dark hole of a station particularly in the winter. Anything to improve the experience of waiting to change on to a (normally late...) Inverness train will be most welcome!

 

[GusB]

Perth bus station seemed rather neglected the last time I was there, and that is well over a decade ago now. My last coach journey south was by Megabus and I had to change at that park and ride place just off the motorway instead. With snow on the ground, and no facilities whatsoever. I used to prefer catching a service from Aberdeen that required a change at Perth as it often meant getting on one of Rapson's Rustbuckets and the slightly faster (allegedly) journey down the M90 that they offered.

As far as the railway station goes, there have been few occasions when I've had to use it. I had an aunt that lived in Crieff, but most of the time we'd get off the train at Gleneagles. My memories of Perth were that it was very dark and dreary. I'm guessing that it hasn't changed much.

 

[Blindtraveler]

A mate of mine who is not a crank once said theres nothing about Perth station that a few bulldozers wouldnt fix.

The P and R at Broxden and its overgrown portacabbin containing a nice warm waiting room etc is far better than the City bus station, even if its opening hours are a tad strange.

I well remember the antiquated collection of coaches that used to come from Inverness, thankfully no the case now!

 

[Clansman]

Think the biggest downer of all is that the station is listed. So whoever dares to come in and give it a facelift better have something special up their sleeve.

 

[cjp]

Think the biggest downer of all is that the station is listed. So whoever dares to come in and give it a facelift better have something special up their sleeve.

Or not - I agree with Wikepedia

Perth station was nominated the Carbuncle award in 2015 which recognizes the worst planning decision. The award was due to the fact a new footbridge had to be built at the South Side of the station which has stair and lift access to all platforms to comply with disability laws

And to use it one has to go out of the covered portion and get wet (yes it does rain in the UK) rather than use the covered system of ramps and bridges within the rambling station.

 

[GusB]

Think the biggest downer of all is that the station is listed. So whoever dares to come in and give it a facelift better have something special up their sleeve.

Which category is it listed under?

I'm perhaps being a bit cynical, but a building having listed status doesn't necessarily mean it's protected from development. A certain golf course site in Aberdeenshire was designated as a Site of Special Scientific Interest, but the development still got the go-ahead for "economic" reasons.

Just sayin'

 

[Clansman]

Which category is it listed under?

It's grade B listed.

 

[adrock1976]

On the rare occasions I have passed through Perth, the station does indeed look very tired and could do with either being seriously renovated, or start from scratch again.

Which category is it listed under?

I'm perhaps being a bit cynical, but a building having listed status doesn't necessarily mean it's protected from development. A certain golf course site in Aberdeenshire was designated as a Site of Special Scientific Interest, but the development still got the go-ahead for "economic" reasons.

Just sayin'

Is that the famous development near Mennie (if that is the right place) that a chap who has more money than sense, likes to pick fights with other people, is incapable of working with others, likes to run the show his way or the highway, gets upset about wind turbines blowing his combover, and went on to become President of the USA?

 

[GusB]

It's grade B listed.

I'm not entirely au-fait with what can and can't be done with listed buildings, but I'd imagine a grade B can withstand a fair amount of tinkering. Let's face it, unless it's classed as an "ancient monument", no building is really safe these days.

Is that the famous development near Mennie (if that is the right place) that a chap who has more money than sense, likes to pick fights with other people, is incapable of working with others, likes to run the show his way or the highway, gets upset about wind turbines blowing his combover, and went on to become President of the USA?

Indeed that would be the very same development at Menie. They're trying to push forward plans for the second course, despite not having met the conditions for being allowed to build the first. He could always threaten us with nukes for not allowing him to play where he wants, I suppose. Anyhow, this is well off-topic!

 

[47271]

What is the actual benefit in filling in P3 & 4? After seeing this in the Scotland Route Study, I can't help but think that it would further demonise P1 & 2 from the rest. Absolutely pointless if they do.

Ah, now, maybe I misunderstood the plan when I read it, but this was what I envisaged:

- relocation of the bus station to the existing forecourt between the Station Hotel and the front door, creating a proper public transport hub.

- removal of the carriage sidings, bearing in mind train servicing is shifting to a site to the south of the station.

- all other vehicle access and parking to be either via the ramp from Glasgow Road, or from Caledonian Road at the point where it passes the carriage sidings.

- removal of the knackered overall roof, together with its population of pigeons, and infill of P3 and P4 allowing restoration of the original Tite frontage currently facing onto P4. Taxis and short term parking on the infilled site.

- P6 to be extended through and parallel to P7 to create two adjacent HML platforms. Terminators continue to use bay P5.

All in all a scheme that brings P1 and P2 closer to the action rather than further away.

Key to this in terms of listed building consent would be the acceptance that the architectural merit of Perth station lies in the main building fronting onto P4 rather than in the overall roof. This might not be as big a leap as we might think, the roof is a later addition which does no favours to the facade.

It would be very expensive, but then they're going to have to do a load of work to the wretched hole that it is at the moment to accomodate electrification anyway.

The councillor's negative reference to Network Rail was slightly irritating because everyone must realise that electrification planning will be what's slowing NR's responses.

Meanwhile, Scotrail should concentrate on basic facilities. The Costa is a huge step forward, but at the risk of repeating myself the next huge advance they could bring is the ability to draw cash on the site.

 

[Clansman]

From what I perceived from the diagram and proposals it self, P3 & P4 would be filled in, P5 & 6 remaining as termini, and a new island platform being constructed adjacent to P7 - with the outer side acting as a freight loop and the inside (new P8) acting as the Northbound HML platform.

But when I first looked at the diagram, I initially mistook it as P3 & P4 being filled in at the Northern ends - thus becoming termini, with P5 & P6 extended right the way through to link up with the HML, and Platform 7 being the freight loop. But in my opinion, this wouldn't be a bad option as you can then demolish the access ramp and the train sheds, creating the large space to be used for carparks, and possibly a new GQS style glass entrance stretching from one end to the other.

Not the clearest proposal in the world by Network Rail...

 

[ScotTrains]

Caledonian Sleeper are opening a First class lounge at Perth station. I would have thought it would make sense for Scotrail to part fund it. This would allow Scotrail passengers to also use it, rather than it lying empty all day.

First class lounges are becoming increasingly popular with many operators, Virgin, TPEx, GC, CS all opening new ones recently. Even the new Glasgow central lounge has already had to be enlarged due to demand. Yet Scotrail seem to be closing theirs; Waverley is now permanently closed and the (often empty) Aberdeen one now no longer accepts advance loyalty members or even the new Scotrail advance 1st class tickets! making it very difficult to enter (only full price Anytime tickets allowed). I suspect someone high up wants to close it too.

With Scotrail supposedly wanting to improve their 1st class offering (both onboard and at stations) I am surprised they haven't opened any new lounges at the stations currently getting major refurbishment: Queen Street, Dundee, Inverness, etc
Hopefully Scotrail can come to some agreement to use the new Perth lounge. It would give 1st class passengers somewhere pleasant to wait.

 

[47271]

From what I perceived from the diagram and proposals it self, P3 & P4 would be filled in, P5 & 6 remaining as termini, and a new island platform being constructed adjacent to P7 - with the outer side acting as a freight loop and the inside (new P8) acting as the Northbound HML platform.

But when I first looked at the diagram, I initially mistook it as P3 & P4 being filled in at the Northern ends - thus becoming termini, with P5 & P6 extended right the way through to link up with the HML, and Platform 7 being the freight loop. But in my opinion, this wouldn't be a bad option as you can then demolish the access ramp and the train sheds, creating the large space to be used for carparks, and possibly a new GQS style glass entrance stretching from one end to the other.

Not the clearest proposal in the world by Network Rail...

Fair enough, you and me both got it slightly wrong in our own ways! I have to confess that I posted from memory this morning and didn't refer back to the NR doc.

The only question that remains in my mind is that I thought that all the bold vision stuff about the bus station, carriage sidings, removal of overall roof, restoration of the Tite building, taxis and short stay bla bla bla I'd learned from Network Rail. This was why I was so grumpy last night about Scotrail's, and the councillor's, vague quotes to the press, and the councillor's moan about NR. I apologise for my scepticism regarding the garden and the ducks of course.

But it's nowhere to be seen, and I can't find it online anywhere else. Did it come to me in a dream, and should I ask NR for a job as a station redevelopment visionary? [emoji38]

 

[47271]

Caledonian Sleeper are opening a First class lounge at Perth station. I would have thought it would make sense for Scotrail to part fund it. This would allow Scotrail passengers to also use it, rather than it lying empty all day.

First class lounges are becoming increasingly popular with many operators, Virgin, TPEx, GC, CS all opening new ones recently. Even the new Glasgow central lounge has already had to be enlarged due to demand. Yet Scotrail seem to be closing theirs; Waverley is now permanently closed and the (often empty) Aberdeen one now no longer accepts advance loyalty members or even the new Scotrail advance 1st class tickets! making it very difficult to enter (only full price Anytime tickets allowed). I suspect someone high up wants to close it too.

With Scotrail supposedly wanting to improve their 1st class offering (both onboard and at stations) I am surprised they haven't opened any new lounges at the stations currently getting major refurbishment: Queen Street, Dundee, Inverness, etc
Hopefully Scotrail can come to some agreement to use the new Perth lounge. It would give 1st class passengers somewhere pleasant to wait.

Good points, and I completely agree.

 

[DuncanS]

Is there enough space in the car park to migrate bus services there?
Is any of the car park owned by the hotel?

 

[najaB]

Not the clearest proposal in the world by Network Rail...

It does seem odd that it appears there's no access to the new sidings from the South.

 

[route:oxford]

I'm perhaps being a bit cynical, but a building having listed status doesn't necessarily mean it's protected from development. A certain golf course site in Aberdeenshire was designated as a Site of Special Scientific Interest, but the development still got the go-ahead for "economic" reasons.

Nothing is protected.

The shock decision by the Scottish Goverment to allow the building of luxury homes, Tennis courts and academy on the Keir estate by Judy Murray (between Dunblane and Bridge of Allan) has angered both communities.

The Murray brothers have gone from being local heroes to local villains in a blink.

 

[Grinner]

Nothing is protected.

The shock decision by the Scottish Goverment to allow the building of luxury homes, Tennis courts and academy on the Keir estate by Judy Murray (between Dunblane and Bridge of Allan) has angered both communities.

The Murray brothers have gone from being local heroes to local villains in a blink.

The designation in question there is greenbelt, which is quite different from modifications to a listed building, I don't see how it's of any relevance here.

 

[Altnabreac]

Nothing is protected.

The shock decision by the Scottish Goverment to allow the building of luxury homes, Tennis courts and academy on the Keir estate by Judy Murray (between Dunblane and Bridge of Allan) has angered both communities.

The Murray brothers have gone from being local heroes to local villains in a blink.

There was already permission for a hotel and golf course there so it's not quite as shocking as you suggest. Part funding Economic Development projects with some housing is also a relatively normal concept in planning as well.

It's not the best development ever but I've seen worse.

 

[mcmad]

Believe the stabling to the south of the station idea has been binned as not practical so it may either move North to the New Yard or the redundant sidings beyond the wash road which may be why NR is being so non committal to the bus station proposals.

 

[47271]

Believe the stabling to the south of the station idea has been binned as not practical so it may either move North to the New Yard or the redundant sidings beyond the wash road which may be why NR is being so non committal to the bus station proposals.

I thought it all went quiet on the south side after the worst of the lineside veg got removed.

New Yard - watch out for the neds, that's why the track machines got moved from there to Dunkeld.

Isn't there quite a bit of space to the west of the wall west of the wash road?

The one thing that Perth isn't short of is unused rotting sidings areas, but local knowledge tells me that New Yard shouldn't be anyone's first choice to leave anything unattended.

 

[MarkyT]

Isn't there quite a bit of space to the west of the wall west of the wash road?

There is probably space for 3 or 4 parallel sidings west of the wall for the entire length of the station. Plenty of room to the south thereof as well for some more as well, alongside and beyond the panel signal box, and the SB area itself could provide space for depot facilities and offices once abolished.

The one thing that Perth isn't short of is unused rotting sidings areas, but local knowledge tells me that New Yard shouldn't be anyone's first choice to leave anything unattended.

I suppose a passenger TOC depot might afford better fencing and security, but New Yard also has the disadvantage of being a long way from the station, so there would be more unproductive time for staff and rolling stock to transfer between the two.

 

[QueensCurve]

Costa...replaces the old Cafe Express...

A bit of a downer for anyone hoping to pick up a decent coffee.

 

[47271]

A bit of a downer for anyone hoping to pick up a decent coffee.

Did you ever visit the old Perth station buffet?

It's a good job they refitted it when they did or it could have ended up as part of the listed building status as a perfect example of BR 1970s melamine.

It was only a couple of years ago that the red and yellow Travellers Fare signs got taken down from the platfrom exits.

 

[Gadget88]

I hope none of its demolished. There's already a new lift and stairs so it's not neglected.

Perth is one of my favourite Scottish stations. Not like Falkirk which has poor station buildings.

Perth has one of the finest buildings in Scotland up there with Paisley and Glasgow central.