New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[CosherB]

How long per 442 will the replacement of the traction package probably take?

A long time. But revinyling a unit is much faster, and applying a sticker over the TOC name is even quicker.

 

[Goldfish62]

Some payment modes were switched off for a period in the final few days of the franchise (especially cash) to allow accounting to be completed and finalised. Nothing to do with revenue allocation.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[TEW]

A long time. But revinyling a unit is much faster, and applying a sticker over the TOC name is even quicker.

If the 455s can be taken as a guide, once the project got going properly it actually didn't take that long to retraction each unit.

 

[Harbouring]

If that's the case then don't know about anyone else but for me it makes it a waste of time as i may as well change at Southampton Central to the GWR service which does goto Portsmouth Harbour, where all the main tourist attractions are ferries (don't know which is best for the channel ferries as have never caught a channel ferry from Portsmouth) and bus station

Portsmouth and Southsea is generally suggested as the station for connections to the international port, by either taxi or bus. Although with the development f the bus station getting there from the harbour is just as easy. Hovercraft to Ryde is quicker to get to from PMS than PMH too. If you are travelling from west of Southampton Weymouth/Bournemouth/New Forest) then no doubt it will likely be quicker to change at Southampton and get the GWR or the new SWR semi fast than get the through stopper.

There was an article in the local "paper" yesterday suggesting that Portsmouth Harbour needs an upgrade according to local councillors. I do think it needs a new entrance somehow directly linked to Gunwharf as the walking route through the tunnel to get in can get quite hazardous. The trouble with all trains terminating there must still be capacity, SWR have some long layover times which take up the platforms as well as some join/splitting manoeuvres throughout the day. So it's a case of finding a space.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

SWR have some long layover times which take up the platforms

Could Fratton depot handle them being parked up there after running ECS to the depot? What would be involved in bringing platform 2 at Portsmouth Harbour back into use?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Could Fratton depot handle them being parked up there after running ECS to the depot? What would be involved in bringing platform 2 at Portsmouth Harbour back into use?

You have a bottleneck at PMS, which is the low speed and curvature of the line, also there's only one down line, a chance to make both lines bi-di was missed quite spectacularly by NR and something that would have eased the congestion, especially when the ACs throw a temper tantrum and lock the place solid.

Also you would have to have a pair of FR drivers on shunt duties all day long as they're the only ones possibly NT (IIRC) who sign the depot, none of the visiting depots sign it.

As for bringing P2 back into use down the harbour, that's a bit of a sore point, because when they were redeveloping Gunwharf Quays, the developer offered to build a brand new station with more platforms and the offer was declined. Gawd knows why!

P2 I believe has some structural issues, hence its closure to traffic and the track being removed. I believe it would be expensive to reinstate it, not only for the structural work, but the work on the track and signalling too.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You have a bottleneck at PMS, which is the low speed and curvature of the line, also there's only one down line, a chance to make both lines bi-di was missed quite spectacularly by NR and something that would have eased the congestion, especially when the ACs throw a temper tantrum and lock the place solid.

Also you would have to have a pair of FR drivers on shunt duties all day long as they're the only ones possibly NT (IIRC) who sign the depot, none of the visiting depots sign it.

As for bringing P2 back into use down the harbour, that's a bit of a sore point, because when they were redeveloping Gunwharf Quays, the developer offered to build a brand new station with more platforms and the offer was declined. Gawd knows why!

P2 I believe has some structural issues, hence its closure to traffic and the track being removed. I believe it would be expensive to reinstate it, not only for the structural work, but the work on the track and signalling too.

It might already be the case but if it isn't would it make much difference if all tracks were bidirectional from the buffer stops at Portsmouth Harbour through to a few hundred meters north of Fratton?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It might already be the case but if it isn't would it make much difference if all tracks were bidirectional from the buffer stops at Portsmouth Harbour through to a few hundred meters north of Fratton?

Oh yes. Operationally it would make things a lot more flexible.

Mind you binning the ACs and replacing them with TCs would improve things considerably too.

 

[moley]

Lots of opportunities were missed under the PARS including fll bi-direction to Fratton P1/2 and 3 was the main one and no LED signals. Not to mention the 3 month over-run and £2.4m fine.

There was a thread elsewhere which said that platform 2 at PMH was removed because the pier could not handle five fully loaded trains. As P2 had the weakest pillars, it was removed. Would be interesting to know if the station is still sinking.

If the money is there, the station needs straightening and the ferries moving to between the station and Gunwharf.

Part of the problem is ECS to Fratton depot and the joining/splitting but with the Class 442s being fixed 10 car formation, there should be a lot less splitting.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do all Waterloo-Pompey trains that won't be formed of 442s (once they get used again) get enough traffic to justify them all being 2x450, which could eliminate the need for some joining and splitting at Portsmouth Harbour

 

[Lockwood]

Probably PMS, but I think they stopped the shuttle bus, so it'd be a cab from whichever station you chose.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Do all Waterloo-Pompey trains that won't be formed of 442s (once they get used again) get enough traffic to justify them all being 2x450, which could eliminate the need for some joining and splitting at Portsmouth Harbour

A lot depends on the time of year, time of day, weather and special/sporting events etc.

With nice weather in the summer holidays the off peak trains can be quite busy with kids & parents going to the seaside, yet get a cloudy day or wet and it can be very quiet, then you get pension days when "Burt & Ada" come along with their friends for a day out.

Alton line (which rather unfortunately shares stock with Portsmouth direct) is always quiet apart from a few peak trains, how they can justify a ½ hourly service down there I don't know, when you could fit two or three trains worth of passengers on one!

Portsmouth line you could run a ½ hourly fast service quite readily for most of the day and after 2200 reduce it to semi fast, with the hourly stopper.

The journey times on the Pompey direct TBQH are disgraceful and you really can do better using the A3 & Hindhead Tunnel, SWR are going to have to cut at least 10-15' off the London journey times to be competitive with the road journey time.

 

[swt_passenger]

... What would be involved in bringing platform 2 at Portsmouth Harbour back into use?

A "pro rata" increase in the number and/or the size of the underlying pillars that hold the entire station up. It is a structural strength issue for the pier, rather than an actual railway engineering or signalling problem.

Quite a difficult job, I'd expect. Cannot see an easy way of doing it while keeping four platforms open. They don't need every train to go to the Harbour, so if there was ever an issue with capacity into the overall Portsmouth area then adding further bay platforms at Portsmouth & Southsea would be much easier all round.

Maybe if the stations had been originally named Portsmouth West, Portsmouth Central, and Portsmouth East, then this discussion wouldn't be happening...

 

[pompeyfan]

You would struggle to put extra pay platforms in at Southsea because of the Matalan shop and car park, the new(ish) 12 car platform is much longer than the building there. As HD suggested earlier, you could possibly turn the DCS into an extra platform or 2, but you'd lose some berthing space as you'd probably only get 2 platforms in there instead of the 3 roads currently there. Also the issue is there is no up facing crossovers from the DCS or back road at all until Fratton east junction, so it wouldn't be able to call at Fratton without money spent on some crossovers.

It always strikes me as odd that the UP was never made BI-DI from Fratton East to the harbour, after all, they were spending that money anyway.

In regards to the harbour, people often forget about the fuel road that used to be there next to P5, and how would the cost economy compare to making a P6 compared with bringing 2 safely back to use.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

To convert all lines from the Portsmouth Harbour buffer stops through to a few hundred meters north of Fratton to bidirectional, would it require a complete re-signalling ti implement?

 

[pompeyfan]

To convert all lines from the Portsmouth Harbour buffer stops through to a few hundred meters north of Fratton to bidirectional, would it require a complete re-signalling ti implement?

It would require alterations and probably isn't worth doing now, there's no down facing crossing from the down to the up, you'd also need the actual signal and relevant AWS/TPWS, relays, etc and finally changes to the box at Havant (I still have never found out if Havant is panel or computer screened, and if there's any ARS, but that's a different subject)

 

[godfreycomplex]

It would require alterations and probably isn't worth doing now, there's no down facing crossing from the down to the up, you'd also need the actual signal and relevant AWS/TPWS, relays, etc and finally changes to the box at Havant (I still have never found out if Havant is panel or computer screened, and if there's any ARS, but that's a different subject)

Computer screens - no ARS

 

[pompeyfan]

Computer screens - no ARS

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Helvellyn]

As for bringing P2 back into use down the harbour, that's a bit of a sore point, because when they were redeveloping Gunwharf Quays, the developer offered to build a brand new station with more platforms and the offer was declined. Gawd knows why!

My hunch is something as stupid as the developers wanted the 'new' station to be called Portsmouth Gunwharf Quays or it wuld have meant a closure of the line between Southsea and the Harbour for a period during redevelopment (which would have been worse to the shambles during the PARS over-run how?).

 

[moley]

You would struggle to put extra pay platforms in at Southsea because of the Matalan shop and car park, the new(ish) 12 car platform is much longer than the building there. As HD suggested earlier, you could possibly turn the DCS into an extra platform or 2, but you'd lose some berthing space as you'd probably only get 2 platforms in there instead of the 3 roads currently there. Also the issue is there is no up facing crossovers from the DCS or back road at all until Fratton east junction, so it wouldn't be able to call at Fratton without money spent on some crossovers.

It always strikes me as odd that the UP was never made BI-DI from Fratton East to the harbour, after all, they were spending that money anyway.

In regards to the harbour, people often forget about the fuel road that used to be there next to P5, and how would the cost economy compare to making a P6 compared with bringing 2 safely back to use.

Matalan and the car park are both leased from Network Rail. If rumours are true, Matalan is looking to move into the local Cascades shopping centre. If that happens, I would expect the store to be demolished.

 

[Dougal2345]

Lots of opportunities were missed under the PARS including fll bi-direction to Fratton P1/2 and 3 was the main one and no LED signals.

Out of interest (I know nothing of the subject) you mention LED signals - why is this an opportunity missed though? Maybe they offer lower running costs and longer life than 'incandescent' ones, but are there any other advantages? Can't they just be dropped in at any time to replace the current ones - it wouldn't have to be part of a new resignalling scheme would it?

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s mentioned in this month’s Modern Railways.

[450 layout changes]

Not in the version I have, ( September) it only refers to moving the 442 first class into an end vehicle.

 

[pompeyfan]

Out of interest (I know nothing of the subject) you mention LED signals - why is this an opportunity missed though? Maybe they offer lower running costs and longer life than 'incandescent' ones, but are there any other advantages? Can't they just be dropped in at any time to replace the current ones - it wouldn't have to be part of a new resignalling scheme would it?

LEDs frequently are dropped into old signal heads. A lot of routes I work have slowly been changing from old 3 and 4 aspect filliment heads to LED heads, there's no point spending money replacing a signal head though if it's working correctly and only 10 years old.

 

[swt_passenger]

Out of interest (I know nothing of the subject) you mention LED signals - why is this an opportunity missed though? Maybe they offer lower running costs and longer life than 'incandescent' ones, but are there any other advantages? Can't they just be dropped in at any time to replace the current ones - it wouldn't have to be part of a new resignalling scheme would it?

I think what happened at the time was that the long lead items for the PARS project had already been ordered just before the 'let's go LED' decision was about to be made, and all the hardware was already in manufacture or stockpiled for the job.

By the time the project actually got going, simpler schemes that had taken less time to plan and complete were already starting to generally use LEDs. AIUI LED 'light engines' can replace filament lamps in existing heads without any external changes, but here we have a whole installations worth of brand new fittings, and if a decision was taken to fit replacement light engines it would be premature, as the normal heads would still have their expected remaining life.

 

[pompeyfan]

Don't think I've seen it mentioned here, but there's a move booked in for Tuesday and Thursday from Ely to Bournemouth depot. Likely assumption is 2 class 442s with a 47 at the front. The piggies are coming home.

 

[Bookd]

This may be a similar structural problem to the old platform 1 at CJ; it was said that it was too weak to handle the weight of trains, so when LU used a new platform this was created as an extension of platform 2.

 

[spark001uk]

Just tweeted SWR about the launch event, and received a reply that it's definitely happening tomorrow at Waterloo.
I'm guessing it won't be too much of a grand gesture tho, just a new livery unit in a platform and goodie bags, something along those lines?

Very hush-hush tho, still haven't seen anything about it, it's only through here I knew it was happening at all!

 

[Sunset route]

It would require alterations and probably isn't worth doing now, there's no down facing crossing from the down to the up, you'd also need the actual signal and relevant AWS/TPWS, relays, etc and finally changes to the box at Havant (I still have never found out if Havant is panel or computer screened, and if there's any ARS, but that's a different subject)

Havant along with Bournemouth use Siemens' VICOS VDU based signalling control desks and maybe the interlocking as well.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Just tweeted SWR about the launch event, and received a reply that it's definitely happening tomorrow at Waterloo.
I'm guessing it won't be too much of a grand gesture tho, just a new livery unit in a platform and goodie bags, something along those lines?

Very hush-hush tho, still haven't seen anything about it, it's only through here I knew it was happening at all!

The Managing Director of SWR was talking to employees at London Waterloo in relation to the launch event and a lot of the employees didn't know who he was until he introduced himself

 

[swt_passenger]

Very hush-hush tho, still haven't seen anything about it, it's only through here I knew it was happening at all!

Do they usually invite the public though?