Is rail REALLY that bad in the North?

[HSTEd]

Railways anywhere are. As are sewage systems, education, hospitals... all the infrastructure of a civilised society.

Whilst I agree with the sentiment, SWT says otherwise.

 

[Bantamzen]

Spot on WelshBluebird; the Tory press have certainly made 'public service' and 'subsidy' into dirty words whereas 'profit' is good.
How is the 'loss' a railway makes factored into the cars, buses, wagons it removes from adjacent roads?

Or more poignantly, imagine the cost to the road network, not to mention business if we allow subsidies to determine what stays, gets improved or goes. And moreover it is worth pointing out that the subsidies come from taxpayers, many of whom use the rail network. And before someone pipes up with "ah but in our area we subsidise another", one way or another we all pay towards services that we may not ourselves actually use. That’s how the Treasury works, you don't always get out what you put in. We could of course base taxation on local subsidies, projects, availability of pubic services etc, but that would be a nightmare for government and taxpayers alike.

 

[lejog]

But the subsidy to Northern is much much more than £250m, because you have to take account of the track access subsidies to Network Rail.

I'd love to have an all electric Northern where all the trains are operated by 444-lookalikes or 707s

But we aren't going to get that in the current climate (regulatory and economic).

Yes, but are figures for that available on a TOC by TOC basis yet? Track access subsidies apply to all TOCs, not just Northern.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, but are figures for that available on a TOC by TOC basis yet? Track access subsidies apply to all TOCs, not just Northern.

The DfT provides subsidy figures with track access charges doled out to the operators based on various criteria.

 

[Clip]

Why does it matter that it needs a subsidy?
Why is subsidy seen as a dirty word these days?
Why does no one use the same kind of language when talking about roads etc?

We don't really talk much about roads here on a railway forum...

 

[Moonshot]

Just going back to the topic of this thread, one thing that hasnt been mentioned is the average price paid by a passenger on Northern for a single journey is around £2.40.

 

[northwichcat]

Just going back to the topic of this thread, one thing that hasnt been mentioned is the average price paid by a passenger on Northern for a single journey is around £2.40.

That will go up as PTE fares are brought in to line with non-PTE fares for the obvious reason plus the additional reason that fewer people will buy split tickets so the average journey price will be calculated more accurately.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just going back to the topic of this thread, one thing that hasnt been mentioned is the average price paid by a passenger on Northern for a single journey is around £2.40.

And what is the average distance for that price? I think you'll find its not very far. Its all very well waiving around random figures, but you will find that a £2.40 fare will not get you much more than 5-6 miles (and comparaible with local bus fares) even in the PTEs in off-peak periods.

 

[absolutelymilk]

The changes to the 20p tax rate (proposed by the Lib Dems but the Conservatives have tried to take the credit for) were very logical. Some low earners were paying income tax and getting their tax refunded through working tax credits.

Why is that a bad thing? Effectively it means an income tax cut for those on higher incomes (and can therefore afford higher tax), as those on lower incomes see their reduced tax offset by reduced tax credits.

 

[lejog]

The DfT provides subsidy figures with track access charges doled out to the operators based on various criteria.

Thanks. At least that shows that Northern's subsidy (TOC plus Network Grant plus PTE Grants) per passenger mile is down nearly 40% over the last 6 years and nearly 25% in total.

 

[northwichcat]

Why is that a bad thing? Effectively it means an income tax cut for those on higher incomes (and can therefore afford higher tax), as those on lower incomes see their reduced tax offset by reduced tax credits.

People on low incomes had to fill out forms, which then had to be processed and then got tax credits the following tax year based on their income for the previous tax year, so effectively they had to wait 12 months for their tax to be refunded. The change to the system means the tax isn't deducted in the first place (or it's deducted at a lower level.)

Like I said it was the Conservatives who decided to also raise the threshold for the 40p tax rate and reduce the 50p rate, if instead they had lowered the threshold and kept the 50p rate then those on higher incomes would have paid around the same amount of income tax, while those on lower incomes would seen an income tax reduction.

 

[mpthomson]

People on low incomes had to fill out forms, which then had to be processed and then got tax credits the following tax year based on their income for the previous tax year, so effectively they had to wait 12 months for their tax to be refunded. The change to the system means the tax isn't deducted in the first place (or it's deducted at a lower level.)

Like I said it was the Conservatives who decided to also raise the threshold for the 40p tax rate and reduce the 50p rate, if instead they had lowered the threshold and kept the 50p rate then those on higher incomes would have paid around the same amount of income tax, while those on lower incomes would seen an income tax reduction.

Not quite, the 50p rate reduced tax take from higher earners, not increased it. That's fundamentally why it was dropped, it doesn't work as people just get cuter about how their money is managed (I'm talking legally here, not illegal tax evasion).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just going back to the topic of this thread, one thing that hasnt been mentioned is the average price paid by a passenger on Northern for a single journey is around £2.40.

While the PTE fares are heavily subsidised, that is very much skewed by your average journey length being quite short. In the South East because near enough everyone is going to/from London this is much higher.

From recent posts on here, non-London fares in the SE are broadly comparable with non-PTE fares in the North, and we have the Network Railcard to lop a third off.

Per passenger mile/km would be a more interesting and relevant figure.

 

[northwichcat]

Not quite, the 50p rate reduced tax take from higher earners, not increased it. That's fundamentally why it was dropped, it doesn't work as people just get cuter about how their money is managed (I'm talking legally here, not illegal tax evasion).

Not quite. Labour expected to raise more than it did but it still increased tax receipts and the cut of the top rate from 50p to 45p still deceased tax receipts.

I heard one business owner, who was pictured with George Osborne in a newspaper article, employed his wife to do a few odd jobs and at the same time took a significant pay cut and gave his wife a salary equal to his pay cut - it would have costed the business the same but reduced the amount of income tax being paid.

Anyway this doesn't really fit under "Is rail REALLY that bad in the North?"

 

[underbank]

Not quite, the 50p rate reduced tax take from higher earners, not increased it. That's fundamentally why it was dropped, it doesn't work as people just get cuter about how their money is managed (I'm talking legally here, not illegal tax evasion).

Exactly. The same way in which the ridiculous 62% marginal tax rate between £100k and £123k causes workers such as doctors and dentists to reduce their hours to get their income back under £100k to avoid it. (And at the same time makes the shortage of doctors and dentists even worse!!!).

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to discuss tax rates further, please create a new thread in General Discussion (with a quote back to this thread of the post you wish to reply to), thanks.

Can we get back on topic please

 

[underbank]

Just going back to the topic of this thread, one thing that hasnt been mentioned is the average price paid by a passenger on Northern for a single journey is around £2.40.

No doubt because most journeys are very short.

A more realistic journey of 23 miles from Morecambe to Kendal costs over £10.

A ridiculously short journey from Morecambe to Bare Lane costs £1.90 for just 2 miles.

So, per mile, it's actually very expensive.

 

[WelshBluebird]

edit - sorry only saw Yorkies post after I had clicked post!

Exactly. The same way in which the ridiculous 62% marginal tax rate between £100k and £123k causes workers such as doctors and dentists to reduce their hours to get their income back under £100k to avoid it. (And at the same time makes the shortage of doctors and dentists even worse!!!).

The way our tax system works means that if you earn more, you take home more. Someone earning say £110k still takes home more than someone earning £99k despite paying a higher percentage of tax.

So anyone who is cutting hours to avoid falling into the higher tax bracket is either misinformed (and thus missing out on extra money) or has decided that the extra time working is not worth the extra money they would get (and so really can't complain because they are voluntarily missing out on extra money).

 

[underbank]

edit - sorry only saw Yorkies post after I had clicked post!



The way our tax system works means that if you earn more, you take home more. Someone earning say £110k still takes home more than someone earning £99k despite paying a higher percentage of tax.

So anyone who is cutting hours to avoid falling into the higher tax bracket is either misinformed (and thus missing out on extra money) or has decided that the extra time working is not worth the extra money they would get (and so really can't complain because they are voluntarily missing out on extra money).

Yes, that's the point - doctors and dentists are taking the decision they'd rather have a day off or not work an extra shift than take home only 38% of the pay, or even less if they have superannuation or other payroll deductions, and of course, commuting costs, reducing that 38% even lower. This is now a very common, and increasingly popular scenario.

 

[Senex]

edit - sorry only saw Yorkies post after I had clicked post!



The way our tax system works means that if you earn more, you take home more. Someone earning say £110k still takes home more than someone earning £99k despite paying a higher percentage of tax.

So anyone who is cutting hours to avoid falling into the higher tax bracket is either misinformed (and thus missing out on extra money) or has decided that the extra time working is not worth the extra money they would get (and so really can't complain because they are voluntarily missing out on extra money).

So would you do extra work so that a rapacious socialist government could grab and squander almost two-thirds of every extra pound you earned? I certainlyh wouldn't.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Is Bradford that hard done by I don't think so, the services that Bradford get have been steadily improving and Northern Connect is going to offer Bradford Through Trains to Liverpool, Manchester Airport and Sheffield/Nottingham.

Plus don't forget Bradford's proximity to Leeds, I live on the South Side of Bradford but with a better bus service to Leeds from where I live its frequently more handy for me to catch the train from Leeds

Bradford is not a suburb of b****y Leeds!

 

[The Ham]

Thanks. At least that shows that Northern's subsidy (TOC plus Network Grant plus PTE Grants) per passenger mile is down nearly 40% over the last 6 years and nearly 25% in total.

In the same time SWT has shifted from £115 million subsidy to s £131 million payment (£246 million shift). This compares with Northern which went from a £660 million subsidy to a £510 million subsidy (£150 million shift).

Although Northern is making progress it could be argued that it is doing slower than other franchises. I think that in that timeframe (bearing in mind the period these figures cover) there's been relatively little investment in either franchise. At most a few extra cast offs from other TOC's and whatever Northern has had in that time.

 

[northwichcat]

In the same time SWT has shifted from £115 million subsidy to s £131 million payment (£246 million shift). This compares with Northern which went from a £660 million subsidy to a £510 million subsidy (£150 million shift).

Although Northern is making progress it could be argued that it is doing slower than other franchises. I think that in that timeframe (bearing in mind the period these figures cover) there's been relatively little investment in either franchise. At most a few extra cast offs from other TOC's and whatever Northern has had in that time.

One of the problems with Northern was the 'no growth' terms. While that allowed DfT to get revenue share, it also allowed Serco/Abellio to take much more profit than they could have dreamt the Northern franchise would ever make. On different terms it would have been closer to a £200m shift.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I typically do an average of over 110mph out of London in the first hour of a service . Even with stops enroute it's a over 90mph, So yes, 50 IS 'trundling' in comparison.

I would say that's a rather selective response. I specifically said that It's not a bad average speed given all the places that need to be served en route; if you're averaging 110mph then you're going a long way without stopping and if you can manage 90mph with a stop or two then all you're really saying is that the London-centric attitude of this country means you have better rolling stock and infrastructure. I do, however, appreciate that the level of demand for travel to London is part of the reason things are how they are.

To compare like with like you need to be thinking about how long you would take to get to Stafford with 8 or 9 stops. It would still be quicker but not by such a margin. Over similar distances, your Wolverhampton trains take two hours with five stops and the Liverpool - Nottingham takes two and a half with eight stops, via the top of the Peaks and using 25+ year old diesel sprinters as opposed to the somewhat astonishingly engineered WCML stock. Yes, you'd win Top Trumps but they are two very different situations for which, I would say, each do a decent job in their respective circumstances.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Token Working requires operational constraints and many more staff - as demonstrated here, that makes it bad.

Token Worked routes are unlikely to ever be economic, that makes it bad.

I don't think anything has been demonstrated to be bad. Token working requires no more staff at all; any reduction in staff comes from abolishing local signal boxes, but that would be true even if the line were double track. As I and others have said, within the economic constraints, which will partly be a case of when a particular resignalling project reaches the top of the pile, it remains a rational way of working for now. Using my previous example, the Matlock branch, it makes almost no difference to the timetable but for now it avoids any costs for an upgrade.

I can't believe that uneconomic token-worked lines are uneconomic *because* they are token worked.

A train coming to a stop in the middle of nowhere, waiting there for a minute before accelerating back to line speed again might not be labour intensive - but it is not the sort of thing that makes an effective public transport system.

Ambergate station in not in the middle of nowhere and the train is stopping anyway. I think you have a very tight definition of "effective": token working only occurs on secondary lines, where what is "effective" is the fact that there is a service at all.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think that an archaic form of signalling on a genuinely lightly used route is what bothers the majority of Northern rail users. Overcrowding, poor timetabling and lack of on-train facilities (such as toilets not working) will be higher up the agenda.

 

[fowler9]

Personally speaking my local station which is West Allerton gets a really good service. We will be loosing the Pacers soon and the staff are great both in the station and on the trains. On the down side West Allerton is absolutely awful for the disabled, I do wonder what will happen in the near future. I wonder how anyone with mobility problems copes at West Allerton.

Another plus is Liverpool South Parkway which is a really great place apart from the toilet facilities, ha ha, 3 toilets for a station that at sometimes has 22 trains an hour plus a multitude of buses going all over the place and linking to the Airport.

I feel lucky in a way because as well as what has already been mentioned we will soon be seeing a fair amount of new rolling stock, plus a lot of the older stuff like Pacers will be replaced with slightly better stock. Lime Street is currently going through a massive change and I am looking forward to seeing the results.

One disappointing thing is the mothballing of electrification in certain areas of the north when Crossrail 2 is being approved. I feel it will just increase demand in the south, that said improving the service in the north would possibly just increase demand up here. In that respect I think we need to change the way we live, work and commute.

 

[underbank]

that said improving the service in the north would possibly just increase demand up here. In that respect I think we need to change the way we live, work and commute.

I'm 100% certain that better services would increase passenger numbers in the North. I've worked in one city and three fairly large towns in Lancashire/Cumbria for 35 years and in all that time, I've only ever worked with one person who commuted for work by train (having worked with a couple of hundred people over those years). The potential demand is huge. The awful service, Pacers, poor facilities, slow trains and poor connections have held down the demand and made the service look unpopular. It's a vicious circle - give us the service and we'll use it, but the poor service means few people using trains, gives the impression it's not wanted!

I can travel from my town to the next nearest town in 20 minutes by car, door to door. The alternative train journey requires 2 changes and total time of over an hour station to station. Of that hour or more on the train, less than 15 minutes is actually on the train - the rest of the time is hanging about the two stations waiting for the connection. What's even more stupid is that there is no need to change - there is a direct railway line that requires no changing directions, but simply no direct trains meaning the use of two very short branch lines and a very short WCML journey to get from one town to its adjacent town!

 

[Clip]

.



One disappointing thing is the mothballing of electrification in certain areas of the north when Crossrail 2 is being approved. I feel it will just increase demand in the south, that said improving the service in the north would possibly just increase demand up here. In that respect I think we need to change the way we live, work and commute.

Is it being approved? If it is how much of a levy as a percentage of its funding is being placed on businesses in London and the areas it goes through? And what businesses up north have pledged to pay such a % for a similar scheme in the north as a whole?

 

[47802]

Bradford is not a suburb of b****y Leeds!

Well technically no it isn't although in some respects it is.

I live 5 miles south of Bradford and 7 miles west of Leeds, the Bus service where I live is better to Leeds than Bradford and hence it is usually more handy to use Leeds Station than Bradford, similarly someone living in Shipley will likely find it more convienient to catch train to Leeds rather than Bradford for many destinations, the point being that due to Bradford's close proximity to Leeds the use of Leeds Station may well be more convienient for many people living in the Bradford District.