Well Arriva did manage to hoover up nearly all spare DMU's that were available at the time of the bid, I guess if those hadn't been available then I guess it would have ether been more CAF units or the 230's. Use of the 150's and 170's offers more flexibility than the 230's and now the 769 has been thrown into the mix.
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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail
- Thread starter northwichcat
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Well Arriva did manage to hoover up nearly all spare DMU's that were available at the time of the bid, I guess if those hadn't been available then I guess it would have ether been more CAF units or the 230's. Use of the 150's and 170's offers more flexibility than the 230's and now the 769 has been thrown into the mix.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
The ITT was written in a way to suggest the recommended course of action is acquiring as many 15x and 17x units as possible and then ordering 120 new self-powered carriages. They also were required to get rid of Pacers by the end of 2019 so trying to getting sufficient DMUs without taking on cascaded Sprinters may not have been possible in the time scale specified.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I seem to remember the Northern ITT was somewhat ambiguous about whether 230s were allowed. But as I posted before it's highly unlikely they would have ordered significant numbers of something that was unproven - and in the event turned out to have problems that probably wouldn't have happened with a more established supplier.
Well I think was fairly clear that they couldn't be ordered as the new train order, but its possible they might have been allowed in addition to the new train order.
Either way its all a bit irrelevant now, and as has already been pointed out despite all the Vivarail propaganda actual public announced orders is Zero.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
It specified a minimum of 120 brand new self-powered carriages and clarified underneath that that brand new could not mean trains using recycled components.
Later on in the document it said the only options for self-powered trains that can be included in the December 2019 train plan were 15xs, 17xs or brand new carriages, unless they proposed using unpowered carriages hauled by a loco.
Vivarail tried to claim their product was suitable for Northern bidders because the second instance of brand new wasn't followed by a note saying brand new carriages could not include recycled components. However, given the lack of a note saying brand new trains can include recycled components unless they are part of the requirement for 120 new carriages, I think Vivarail's claim was very debatable.
Well, they've featured on TV programmes such as the 2003 The Tube and the 2012 series The Tube. The whole network is oft referred to as The Tube.
I think that's good enough to say they are Tube trains, and leave the rivet counters to the semantics...
D365
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NorthernSpirit
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Who says that there hasn’t been any orders? It appears that the open access operator Go-Op will be running part of their new service with class 230’s. http://www.go-op.coop/train/
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The Planner
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December 17 has been offered back to the operators so you'll find out soon enough if they are there...
absolutelymilk
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When was this published? Can't see a date on it
centraltrains
Member
First announced in "Going Foward!" Spring 2016: http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/going_forward_issue_10_spring_2016.pdf
Spring 2017 doesn't mention them at all, and instead looks at 319 Flex... http://www.go-op.coop/workspace/uploads/files/issue11.pdf
l take that with a pinch of salt like Vivarail, and many open access operators until it actually happens, it also says that it will Vivarail units for 2 years then the full route will be worked by CAF Units, frankly I would be sceptical that they can make that a viable open access route. Looks like pie in the sky stuff to me and presumably NR don't want some 60mph unit clogging various sections of the mainline hence the eventual need for CAF units.
Why the debate about a tube, its a Tube train end of, yes the surface lines are built to a standard loading unlike the smaller gauge of the deep level tubes, and as such it does make it bit more suitable for the mainline, but its still a tube train as far as I'm concerned.
I think its also fair to that had their not been enough 150/170's available for Northern you can bet that the Dft would certainly have allowed these at least in addition to the new trains.
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NorthernSpirit
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I think it'll be the case of "I believe it when I see it" with these 230's in revenue service.
As for the Civities that their also after using, I do really wonder how GoOp would be able to afford the lease on them as GC started of using third hand HST's and second hand 180's for their services.
I'll have to wait and see if the "Cider Flyer" does start and which unit is running it.
Not really sure the GC example is a case of what they could afford, it was that they had little/no alternative. Bear in mind there weren't even any spare HST trailers at the time as well.
The 230 did indeed have a trip on the Cotswold Line today. Couple of photos of it shunting at Moreton-in-Marsh taken by Martin Loader are here:
http://hondawanderer.com/Recent_Additions.htm
http://hondawanderer.com/Recent_Additions.htm
MatthewRead
On Moderation
As I mentioned before the class 230's could be used on services around Devon and Cornwall. Not only would they provide more capacity in fixed 3-6car formations but they could also see off Pacers on the Paignton-Exeter-Exmouth service. The speed limit between Exeter St Davids and Newton Abbot is only 75 and because they accelerate faster than the current DMU's they would be better suited especially on summer Saturdays with their metro style interiors.
I had been led to believe that Turbo's were going to be used but since they are only cleared to run as far as Plymouth I think the D-Trains would be a better bet.
I had been led to believe that Turbo's were going to be used but since they are only cleared to run as far as Plymouth I think the D-Trains would be a better bet.
There are stretches of 90mph between Exeter and Newton Abbott.
The cascade plan to see off the pacers has been well documented - Turbos release Sprinters from Bristol Area to Devon/Cornwall to displace 150/1s and 143s.
Summer Saturdays require luggage space; which a metro layout hardly provides.
Vivarail have been pushing these Undergound cast-offs for a number of years, with a confirmed order book of zero. Perhaps there is good reason for this....
And a large stretch of 100mph just after Exeter St Thomas / Starcross.
swt_passenger
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That's not how the CP5 enhancement milestones read. There are 5 phases to the DMU capability project, and as far as it reads (as of Dec 2016) many possible routes are covered:
Not cleared today doesn't mean won't ever be cleared.
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cj_1985
Member
An OA operation or provided as part of the GWR franchise?
Clarence Yard
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Operated by GWR using 15x stock.
No operation of 230 stock is envisaged on any, repeat any, GWR service for the foreseeable future (i.e. up to at least 2020).
No operation of 230 stock is envisaged on any, repeat any, GWR service for the foreseeable future (i.e. up to at least 2020).
This time last year the demonstrator 230 was being offered for free* to a train operator who the year before had issues with DMU availablity. They didn't take up the offer
'Nuff said?
* Diesel costs excepted
GWR operated. See this thread:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3049843&postcount=25
Is there sufficient rolling stock to operate this service? If not it could be an ideal candidate to trial 230s.
Clarence Yard
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Yes there is sufficient stock. Let me repeat, class 230 units will not be used on GWR.
1179_Clee2
Member
NO there is not sufficient stock. Let me repeat, not enough Class 150 sprinters at GWR.
This is why GWR are trying to keep sprinter DMUs that Northern have leased.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
Isn't the issue (with both the 150s due to transfer to Northern and the 143s and 153s due to go off-lease) that there are not enough 387s in service to allow a large enough internal cascade of 16xs yet, which should be rectified once the Thames Valley wiring is complete?
I imagine extra service 'from next year' will mean from May 2019 if the cascaded trains aren't available in time. GWR won't secure D-Trains for a delay in existing DMUs being released, unless there's some plan to send them elsewhere once the existing DMUs become available.
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