Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[scrapy]

So finally end of 2018 some air conditioning on the South Manchester locals which residents of Heaton, Levenshulme et al shall welcome especially on days like today!

Not many air conditioned trains at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. The Manchester to Crewe and Wigan to Alderley Edge services will be class 319s. I suspect the Manchester to Hazel Grove services to be 319s that leave the New Mills / Buxton services as mainly 150s

New electric units will be used on Blackpool/Manchester to Macclesfield/ Stoke but few of these will stop.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Not many air conditioned trains at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme. The Manchester to Crewe and Wigan to Alderley Edge services will be class 319s. I suspect the Manchester to Hazel Grove services to be 319s that leave the New Mills / Buxton services as mainly 150s

New electric units will be used on Blackpool/Manchester to Macclesfield/ Stoke but few of these will stop.

I thought they had to keep to 323 timings which 319s are not capable of?

 

[northwichcat]

Alderley Edge services are the ones where 150s fill in during a 323 shortage, while Stoke and Glossop services have to be fast accelerating EMUs so if the unit due to work one of those services fails Northern nab a 323 off an Alderley Edge diagram.

 

[scrapy]

319s really struggle with acceleration on gradients so they are not suited to the Hadfield route with current timings. The Crewe services have and will continue to have quite generous timings. Whilst acceleration may not be quite as good on 319s the doors open and shut much faster than 323s reducing dwell time. They also have a 100mph top speed which will give some time savings on those which don't stop at Chelford and Goostrey.

 

[northwichcat]

Does anyone know the proposed departure times of services from Chester and Greenbank to Manchester? There's some moaning in the local paper about the trains being 43 and 17 minutes apart but it's not clear at what station would have trains 43 and 17 minutes apart. If it's Greenbank in the Manchester direction and the slow departs 17 minutes after the fast then they'll probably be around 30 minutes apart by Skelton Junction but if it's Knutsford then the gap would be something like 37/23 at that point.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

319s really struggle with acceleration on gradients so they are not suited to the Hadfield route with current timings. The Crewe services have and will continue to have quite generous timings. Whilst acceleration may not be quite as good on 319s the doors open and shut much faster than 323s reducing dwell time. They also have a 100mph top speed which will give some time savings on those which don't stop at Chelford and Goostrey.

They seem to manage the climb from City Thameslink to Blackfriars easily enough.

 

[Bevan Price]

Does anyone know the proposed departure times of services from Chester and Greenbank to Manchester? There's some moaning in the local paper about the trains being 43 and 17 minutes apart but it's not clear at what station would have trains 43 and 17 minutes apart. If it's Greenbank in the Manchester direction and the slow departs 17 minutes after the fast then they'll probably be around 30 minutes apart by Skelton Junction but if it's Knutsford then the gap would be something like 37/23 at that point.

Off-peak
Chester xx:19
Mouldsworth xx:30
Delamere xx:36
Cuddington xx:40
Greenbank xx:45
Northwich xx:51
Knutsford xx:00
Hale xx:09
Altrincham xx:13
Stockport xx:31

and
Greenbank xx:26
Northwich xx:31
all stations to
Knutsford xx:43
stations to
Altrincham xx:59
Navigation Rd.xx:02
Stockport xx:17

 

[northwichcat]

Off-peak
Chester xx:19
Mouldsworth xx:30
Delamere xx:36
Cuddington xx:40
Greenbank xx:45
Northwich xx:51
Knutsford xx:00
Hale xx:09
Altrincham xx:13
Stockport xx:31

and
Greenbank xx:26
Northwich xx:31
all stations to
Knutsford xx:43
stations to
Altrincham xx:59
Navigation Rd.xx:02
Stockport xx:17

Thanks. So really the fast and slow are the wrong way around in that direction as the fast catches up the slow.

 

[northwichcat]

They seem to manage the climb from City Thameslink to Blackfriars easily enough.

Remember the 323s are one of the best accelerating EMUs out there and just a couple of minutes extra each way on Glossop services would increase the number of diagrams required.

 

[Greybeard33]

Thanks. So really the fast and slow are the wrong way around in that direction as the fast catches up the slow.

So the Greenbank service is taking over the path from Stockport to Piccadilly of the current Chester service. And I guess the stopper from Crewe (currently xx29 from Stockport) will have to be retimed to allow the xx31 Stockport departure of the fast service from Chester.

 

[Francis]

Just looking at the Bolton - Horwich - Chorley - Buckshaw - Preston route.

Despite two years or more disruption due to electrification, it looks as if Northern are actually downgrading this route.

We used to have 4 tph from Chorley in each direction: one Anglo-Scottish TPE and three Northern (two via Manchester Oxford Rd, one via Victoria). For the last three years we have just had 3 tph, all Northern, two via Oxford Rd and one via Victoria. No reduction in fares of course for a poorer service.

The proposed schedule shows only
Hourly Macclesfield to Blackpool North via Bolton (semi-fast to Preston, then all stops to Blackpool)
Hourly Man Vic to Preston (all stops north of Bolton).
and presumably the Glasgow or Edinburgh TPEs diverted back via Chorley and Bolton instead of the Wigan route (Wigan has plenty of Virgin services to Scotland after all).

Hardly satisfactory that after all the electrification work, Northern looks as if it is actually going to reduce its services on the Preston-Bolton corridor.

I hope I am misreading the situation, but can anybody enlighten me.

 

[Ianno87]

Just looking at the Bolton - Horwich - Chorley - Buckshaw - Preston route.

Despite two years or more disruption due to electrification, it looks as if Northern are actually downgrading this route.

We used to have 4 tph from Chorley in each direction: one Anglo-Scottish TPE and three Northern (two via Manchester Oxford Rd, one via Victoria). For the last three years we have just had 3 tph, all Northern, two via Oxford Rd and one via Victoria. No reduction in fares of course for a poorer service.

The proposed schedule shows only
Hourly Macclesfield to Blackpool North via Bolton (semi-fast to Preston, then all stops to Blackpool)
Hourly Man Vic to Preston (all stops north of Bolton).
and presumably the Glasgow or Edinburgh TPEs diverted back via Chorley and Bolton instead of the Wigan route (Wigan has plenty of Virgin services to Scotland after all).

Hardly satisfactory that after all the electrification work, Northern looks as if it is actually going to reduce its services on the Preston-Bolton corridor.

I hope I am misreading the situation, but can anybody enlighten me.

AIUI, there will still be an Airport-Blackpool service as well, which makes 4tph Bolton-Preston, plus the hourly path via Chat Moss, giving 5tph from Preston to Manchester in total.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'll risk the wrath of responses on this one - whilst the Lancaster / Cumbria / Scotland is obviously a benefit, does a town the size of Chorley and with the usage its station has automatically warrant 4tph? (The same question goes for the Horwich and Buckshaw Parkways too.)
I always found it a bit odd that the Scottish traffic had stops inserted there, it struck me as the problem which blights CrossCountry, in having to utilise what should be an inter-city route as a regional or local stopper service.

 

[northwichcat]

Scottish TPE trains stopped at Chorley because they were originally diverted Windermere services when the Virgin Manchester to Scotland service was withdrawn. Of course what isn't mentioned above is Chorley got a 33% increase in off peak services when Northern introduced the additional Preston services. Did fares rocket when Chorley got that temporary increase in provision?

 

[Starmill]

I have seen zero evidence that the TransPennine franchisee will be calling at any of those stations.

The implication has been that there may be occasional calls at Bolton, and they're likely to be pick up and set down only, but most trains will not stop between Manchester and Preston.

 

[thealexweb]

I have seen zero evidence that the TransPennine franchisee will be calling at any of those stations.

The implication has been that there may be occasional calls at Bolton, and they're likely to be pick up and set down only, but most trains will not stop between Manchester and Preston.

This is incorrect.

Almost all TPE North West services will call at Bolton, all be it with the option of pick-up and set down only. See the tpe-tsr-table-december-2017.xlsx from the Department for Transport's website for more details.

 

[Starmill]

The former TP North West services were all transferred to Northern last year. Of course those will all call at Bolton and Chorley, why on earth wouldn't they?

 

[northwichcat]

The former TP North West services were all transferred to Northern last year. Of course those will all call at Bolton and Chorley, why on earth wouldn't they?

thealexweb is obviously referring to the Manchester Airport to Scotland services, not the Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere services which transferred to Northern.

 

[Starmill]

In which case there is no evidence that they will call at Chorley, either in that document or elsewhere?

 

[Philip]

Thanks. So really the fast and slow are the wrong way around in that direction as the fast catches up the slow.

It doesn't really catch up with the slow though does it? Still 14 minutes behind into Stockport.

 

[northwichcat]

It doesn't really catch up with the slow though does it? Still 14 minutes behind into Stockport.

I was meaning the gap is imbalanced at Greenbank and due to the fast being 19 minutes after the slow (rather than the other way around) the imbalance is greater at Stockport, when if it was the other way around the imbalance would start reducing at stations further down the line.

 

[ashworth]

I was meaning the gap is imbalanced at Greenbank and due to the fast being 19 minutes after the slow (rather than the other way around) the imbalance is greater at Stockport, when if it was the other way around the imbalance would start reducing at stations further down the line.

The situation with the new improved frequency between Sheffield, Worksop and Retford is perhaps going to be even worse. There's been much publicity in the local press about Retford and Worksop getting a half hourly service throughout the day to/from Sheffield. I wonder what people will think when they actually see the proposed timetable!
Taking Worksop as the example the trains towards Sheffield are to leave Worksop at xx24 and xx41 which is only 17 minutes apart.
In the opposite direction it's even worse with trains arriving in Worksop from Sheffield and departing to Retford at xx06 and xx59 which unbelievably is only 7 minutes apart.
Hardly a half hourly service.

There's also been publicity about this so called half hourly service providing better connections at Worksop for journeys between Sheffield and the Mansfield area. With the train from Nottingham arriving in Worksop at xx33 connections will be greatly improved when travelling from Mansfield to Sheffield. However, connections are now going to be far worse in the opposite direction as the Nottingham train leaves Worksop at xx41

 

[Philip]

They can only do so much with diagram planning. They'll have done the best they can to make it an even spread with good connections but the availability of paths restricts things a lot. It's been pointed out above that Crewe line passengers will already have to have one of their local services altered in order to make room at Stockport for the extra Chester line local. You can't have a perfect service frequency.

 

[roversfan2001]

I'll risk the wrath of responses on this one - whilst the Lancaster / Cumbria / Scotland is obviously a benefit, does a town the size of Chorley and with the usage its station has automatically warrant 4tph? (The same question goes for the Horwich and Buckshaw Parkways too.)
I always found it a bit odd that the Scottish traffic had stops inserted there, it struck me as the problem which blights CrossCountry, in having to utilise what should be an inter-city route as a regional or local stopper service.

Buckshaw Parkway doesn't warrant the service level it receives. Fewer passengers per year than Leyland yet the Airport services stop there and not Leyland.

No I'm definitely not bitter about the situation...

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Buckshaw Parkway doesn't warrant the service level it receives. Fewer passengers per year than Leyland yet the Airport services stop there and not Leyland.

No I'm definitely not bitter about the situation...

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

I'm still amazed its booking office is open 18 hours a day six days a week, and 15.5 the other. I trust the clerks there take a lot of reading material with them!

 

[Ianno87]

I'm still amazed its booking office is open 18 hours a day six days a week, and 15.5 the other. I trust the clerks there take a lot of reading material with them.

How much housebuilding is there still to be done on the former ROF site? May still be growth potential if it's not finished yet...

 

[roversfan2001]

I'm still amazed its booking office is open 18 hours a day six days a week, and 15.5 the other. I trust the clerks there take a lot of reading material with them!

According to Wikipedia it's open until 00:20 Monday to Saturday. Every time I've been in after about 8 it's been shut.

How much housebuilding is there still to be done on the former ROF site? May still be growth potential if it's not finished yet...

It's not finished yet AFAIK however there's not a lot of land left that's not got houses on, they've built on the site fairly consistently for 13 years now.



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[MidnightFlyer]

How much housebuilding is there still to be done on the former ROF site? May still be growth potential if it's not finished yet...

I have no idea, though last time I passed through (a very long while ago, granted), there still appeared to be a lot of land left to be developed. The booking office has been open that long since day one though, unless something precludes it from being unstaffed whilst in service I cannot understand why this (presently) is the case.

Edit - I bow down to roverfan's superior knowledge on the housebuilding front!

 

[northwichcat]

They can only do so much with diagram planning. They'll have done the best they can to make it an even spread with good connections but the availability of paths restricts things a lot. It's been pointed out above that Crewe line passengers will already have to have one of their local services altered in order to make room at Stockport for the extra Chester line local. You can't have a perfect service frequency.

Given we were told it would involve a full recast of South Manchester services a Crewe service having a different slot is hardly surprising. A retimed Crewe service might even be better for Crewe line passengers (Holmes Chapel Comprehensive aren't happy with the current times for one), yet you're saying it like Crewe passengers will get the short straw.

 

[northwichcat]

Buckshaw Parkway doesn't warrant the service level it receives. Fewer passengers per year than Leyland yet the Airport services stop there and not Leyland.

No I'm definitely not bitter about the situation...

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Was there S106 funding from the new development to be spent on public transport? If there was then the provision will have to remain until the funding runs out.