Pacers As Crowd Busters?

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

Before I go on I do realise how dreadful Pacers generally are and absolutely acknowledge that they are way over due for replacement. However I'm curious to know whether Northern's new trains can work with Pacers. If so would it be worth keeping some in 'warm storage' for summer weekends when the weather is good.

I appreciate that I might well be hauled over the coals for this but it was just a thought. Nevertheless your thoughts would be very welcome.

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[GusB]

I could think of somewhere warm to put them, but it wouldn't be storage

 

[TimboM]

Would they be crowd busters because people would see them, leave the station there and then and use an alternative form of transport - perhaps something more comfortable like a bicycle with square wheels?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Would they be crowd busters because people would see them, leave the station there and then and use an alternative form of transport - perhaps something more comfortable like a bicycle with square wheels?

Yes they might do that. Alternatively, having already bought a train ticket they might be glad of a seat on a day trip to Edale from Manchester.

 

[najaB]

However I'm curious to know whether Northern's new trains can work with Pacers.

I'd be very surprised if they could. I expect the new trains to use Dellner or Scharfenberg couplers rather than BSI so that would put paid to the idea before you even get to the complexity of getting a 21st Century TMS to talk to a 1980's bus*.

*(Leyland, not data.)

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes they might do that. Alternatively, having already bought a train ticket they might be glad of a seat on a day trip to Edale from Manchester.

Agreed, I'd much prefer a seat on a 142 (Merseytravel variants excepted) than be wedged in a vestibule of a 150 or similar, if they could be brought up to a similar standard of GWRs 143s I could tolerate them, well for a journey of less than a hour duration maybe.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'd be very surprised if they could. I expect the new trains to use Dellner or Scharfenberg couplers rather than BSI so that would put paid to the idea before you even get to the complexity of getting a 21st Century TMS to talk to a 1980's bus*.

*(Leyland, not data.)

I dare say you're right najaB but in my mind this where our modern day railway falls down. There needs to be some of kind contingency planning for nice summer weekends or else the occasional rail traveler will be put off from using the train again if they cannot get a seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'd be less likely for them to run with new stock (though they can with up to class 158 an I guess technically 170) but more likely for them to run on their own as crowd busting services.

 

[najaB]

There needs to be some of kind contingency planning for nice summer weekends or else the occasional rail traveler will be put off from using the train again if they cannot get a seat.

The problem with a fleet of 'sunny day Pacers' is paying to store them and keep them operational on the 300 days of the year that they aren't needed.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It'd be less likely for them to run with new stock (though they can with up to class 158 an I guess technically 170) but more likely for them to run on their own as crowd busting services.

That would be equally good as an idea but I wonder if there would enough room in the timetable for extra trains?

 

[najaB]

It'd be less likely for them to run with new stock (though they can with up to class 158 an I guess technically 170)...

I know the couplers are the same, but I agree it wouldn't make sense to limit 100mph units to 75mph on the days when the railway is the busiest.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The problem with a fleet of 'sunny day Pacers' is paying to store them and keep them operational on the 300 days of the year that they aren't needed.

Agreed but you could also say the same for the class 442s. I really don't want to open up a can of worms here but I'm not aware that any of them have been scrapped and yet I'm not aware that all of them have found work.

Once more north west services switch to EMU's it would be interesting to see if Newton Heath has any spare capacity for storing a dozen Pacers.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I know the couplers are the same, but I agree it wouldn't make sense to limit 100mph units to 75mph on the days when the railway is the busiest.

However you don't get many 100 mph trains running down the Hope Valley, or down to Whitby or over to Blackpool South.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have been on a 142 which was coupled to the back of a 158 and being driven from the latter at well in excess of 75mph. Bouncy.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I have been on a 142 which was coupled to the back of a 158 and being driven from the latter at well in excess of 75mph. Bouncy.

I dare say it was noisy as well!

 

[najaB]

Agreed but you could also say the same for the class 442s.

442s are many things, but they aren't Leyland buses on rails. The term 'life-expired' gets thrown around on the forum, and (most) Pacers are structurally sound(-ish) but, as my mother would say, they don't owe anybody anything.

They are 10-year stopgap units still in use 30-something years later.

 

[RichmondCommu]

442s are many things, but they aren't Leyland buses on rails. The term 'life-expired' gets thrown around on the forum, and (most) Pacers are structurally sound(-ish) but, as my mother would say, they don't owe anybody anything.

They are 10-year stopgap units still in use 30-something years later.

I concur but I think the circumstances are the same. The TOCs don't want to scrap them in the hope that they might be able to sweat more out of their assets. To passenger on a day trip a seat is a seat and we're perhaps only talking about a dozen Pacers, hand picked from the ones in the best condition.

 

[thealexweb]

...perhaps something more comfortable like a bicycle with square wheels?

The nearest thing I could think of.... hello.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The nearest thing I could think of.... hello.

My youngest (now grown up children) used to love them. I thought they were a pair of idiots.

 

[bramling]

The problem with a fleet of 'sunny day Pacers' is paying to store them and keep them operational on the 300 days of the year that they aren't needed.

That point might be reached when *every* peak service on Northern that can be feasibly lengthened within the constraints of the infrastructure has been lengthened.

In the meantime, keep them running but restrict their use. There are still diagrams on Northern which don't do a massive amount.

Possibly the bigger issue with the Pacer fleets is keeping them running reliably. They're already comparatively unreliable, plus there is the question of what would need to be done about accessibility modifications. The moment they're modified then the capacity benefits of running them decrease, but if they're not modified then they are restricted to running with other units which reduces their usefulness. Forming up some 4-car units is another possibility so only one large toilet is required, but again this limits flexibility and isn't ideal as the train would not be gangwayed.

But, yes, I'd rather be in a non-crowded Pacer than an overcrowded something else -- and I think many would feel the same way.

 

[adrock1976]

The comment regarding bicycles with square wheels got me thinking about one of the scenes in Carry On Cleo (a urine take of Cleopatra) where a bicycle with square wheels featured (I cannot remember if it was the character played by Sid James or Kenneth Williams).

Back on topic, would some Sprinters rather than Pacers be better for crowd busting? I seem to recall that in various threads that Pacers can struggle to get off the mark from a standing start if every seat is occupied and the remaining space is full of standees.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Back on topic, would some Sprinters rather than Pacers be better for crowd busting? I seem to recall that in various threads that Pacers can struggle to get off the mark from a standing start if every seat is occupied and the remaining space is full of standees.

That's a very fair point but are there any plans to withdraw any of the Sprinter classes from service? My point was to keep perhaps a dozen units that would otherwise have been scrapped in reserve.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I could think of somewhere warm to put them, but it wouldn't be storage

Snailwell??

XD

 

[Mugby]

I managed to travel on the refurbished Alexander bodied example at the weekend and I must say I was really quite pleasantly surprised.

Still only a Pacer but the interior has been nicely refitted although the seats are a little hard. Certainly an improvement though, does anyone know if any more are to receive the same treatment?

 

[cin88]

Whilst you have a valid point, I don't really see it as cost effective or even worth it to have some lying around wasting space at Newton Heath that could be taken up by units coming in and out for routine maintenance.

Get a few in preservation and send the rest to the scrap heap, their time is over.

One of the reasons i'm pushing so hard to become a train driver before 2020 is so I can drive one those infernal things before they go

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I managed to travel on the refurbished Alexander bodied example at the weekend and I must say I was really quite pleasantly surprised.

Still only a Pacer but the interior has been nicely refitted although the seats are a little hard. Certainly an improvement though, does anyone know if any more are to receive the same treatment?

I think Porterbrook have pretty much ruled out doing any more. There is a thread about 144012 but it's probably a few pages back from the first one now.

 

[northwichcat]

Worth remembering Pacers only have low running costs because they are small. If you want a lot of seats then multiple Sprinters are a more cost effective option.

 

[The Ham]

I could see that some are kept on the off chance that there is a shortage of units around 2020, depending on what comes out of the HLOS and the next franchise awards. Although chances are even those wood just be that they are delayed being delivered to the scrap yard.

The e-pacer could see service on a small branch line somewhere, but I feel that even its days are numbered.

 

[absolutelymilk]

If Northern think there is a chance they might need this, why not order more 195s and then keep some 150/153s as spares? (aside from money obviously, but the financial price would be much less than the political price of re-introducing Pacers)

 

[rebmcr]

My youngest (now grown up children) used to love them. I thought they were a pair of idiots.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!