Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

[AlterEgo]

Isn't she supposed to have people to do that for her?

Yes but her best people resigned a long time back because they couldn't stand her style.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

With the RBKC having a £200 million surplus - there is no issue with funding ..

Just compassion and delivery.

 

[Antman]

If appliances had to come from further away (for example, if appliances from the nearest stations had been attending another call), it could have been a lot longer than six minutes.
If stations weren't fit for purpose, why not replace them with ones that are?

Because they weren't needed, there are less fires now which is obviously a good thing. Grenfell Tower was obviously exceptional but there is no criticism of the fire brigade.

 

[Antman]

Notices have now gone up in the area, to the effect that this is not a tourist attraction and please refrain from taking photos - any one who needs to be told this is unfortunately unlikely to take the slightest notice.

I think that is aimed at people taking selfies and generally behaving in a less than respectful way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are enough photos of it out there, there's no need for any more to be taken.

 

[Busaholic]

I've just watched the 'Panorama' programme and it revealed something that I'd been unaware of up to now, backed up seemingly by footage taken at the time, namely that the original fire (i.e. the fridge in a flat on the Fourth Floor) had been successfully extinguished, this leading to the continued advice to residents to stay in their flats and await rescue. What happened after that i.e. how did that cladding catch fire remains unanswered.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You must have missed this announcement then? The £5000 each was just an initial payment to help the victims in the immediate aftermath.

Like I said, May isn't as good on the PR side as she needs to be.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/support-for-victims-of-the-grenfell-tower-disaster

I know it's an interim payment. The residents say the first they heard of it was when she announced it in the press release.

 

[w0033944]

I've just watched the 'Panorama' programme and it revealed something that I'd been unaware of up to now, backed up seemingly by footage taken at the time, namely that the original fire (i.e. the fridge in a flat on the Fourth Floor) had been successfully extinguished, this leading to the continued advice to residents to stay in their flats and await rescue. What happened after that i.e. how did that cladding catch fire remains unanswered.

I haven't seen the Panorama report, but did catch a short interview earlier with the reporter behind it, and this fact was mentioned in that discussion. Somehow, it seems to make the situation that much more tragic.

 

[jon0844]

Because they weren't needed, there are less fires now which is obviously a good thing. Grenfell Tower was obviously exceptional but there is no criticism of the fire brigade.

Did you see what the Fire Brigade Union was saying on Twitter? They certainly got the boot in, although I don't know if the account is official.

 

[yorkie]

Did you see what the Fire Brigade Union was saying on Twitter? They certainly got the boot in, although I don't know if the account is official.

No but you are welcome to link to it and quote from it.

That said, you can't always rely on Unions to be proportionate and sensible (and I say that as a member of a union myself!).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've just watched the 'Panorama' programme and it revealed something that I'd been unaware of up to now, backed up seemingly by footage taken at the time, namely that the original fire (i.e. the fridge in a flat on the Fourth Floor) had been successfully extinguished, this leading to the continued advice to residents to stay in their flats and await rescue. What happened after that i.e. how did that cladding catch fire remains unanswered.

I'd suspect the cladding had ignited during the original incident but this was not visible at the time owing to the aluminium cladding; it could have taken a while for it to erupt.

 

[jon0844]

No but you are welcome to link to it and quote from it.

That said, you can't always rely on Unions to be proportionate and sensible (and I say that as a member of a union myself!).

I will try and do some searching to find some examples. And I'm a member of two unions now.

 

[najaB]

I'd suspect the cladding had ignited during the original incident but this was not visible at the time owing to the aluminium cladding; it could have taken a while for it to erupt.

This was what I was saying up-thread. The gap between the insulation and the wall allowed a slow burn up the side of the building until it burned through... Sudden influx of oxygen and flashover.

 

[BestWestern]

I see in this morning's news that Adele has turned up at a fire station, photographer handily supplied by somebody, to 'thank the firefighters'. Is she acting as official representative of the United Kingdom I wonder, or was that Lily Allen's title?

I think it's safe to suggest that this terrible incident, its appalling aftermath and the consequent fundraising efforts are all very much in the public eye. These celebs could do with ensuring that their efforts don't start to look like cheap advertising.

 

[BestWestern]

Yes but her best people resigned a long time back because they couldn't stand her style.

Where do they go I wonder? Are they morally flexible enough to get a job with the other side?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This was what I was saying up-thread. The gap between the insulation and the wall allowed a slow burn up the side of the building until it burned through... Sudden influx of oxygen and flashover.

The point has been made a few times in the media as well, but very few seem to get it.

It seems to make a mockery of permitting this type of cladding on buildings below 18m high as well doesn't it? It''s all very well saying that's fine because the presumption in that type of building is immediate evacuation, unlike with a high rise, but that still ignores the point that it is introducing a risk that is completely avoidable in the first place.

 

[Dai Corner]

The point has been made a few times in the media as well, but very few seem to get it.

It seems to make a mockery of permitting this type of cladding on buildings below 18m high as well doesn't it? It''s all very well saying that's fine because the presumption in that type of building is immediate evacuation, unlike with a high rise, but that still ignores the point that it is introducing a risk that is completely avoidable in the first place.

It's not just the particular type of insulation/cladding it's the construction method as well. As I said upthread, the insulation used did pass a test which showed it met the regulations and could be used on buildings over 18m, but the manufacturers warned that it only applied if using the same construction method.


http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3027210&postcount=386

https://www.celotex.co.uk/download/df71506f-346e-4c59-be61-566f030688f0

Is the first PIR insulation board to successfully test to BS 8414-2:2005, meets the criteria set out in BR 135 and therefore is acceptable for use in buildings above 18 metres in height


Celotex RS5000 is a premium performance solution and is the first PIR board to meet the performance criteria set out in BR 135 for rainscreen cladding systems.

Celotex RS5000 is a premium performance solution and is the first PIR board to meet the performance criteria set out in BR 135 for rainscreen cladding systems.
The system tested was as follows:
12mm Fibre Cement Panels
Supporting aluminium brackets and vertical rails
100mm Celotex RS5000
12mm Non-combustible sheathing board
100mm SFS System
2 x 12.5mm plasterboard
The fire performance and classification report issued only relates to the components detailed. Any changes to the components listed will need to be considered by the building designer.

My bold. We don't know whether the same materials used in the test were used at Grenfell or whether the changes were considered by the designers.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, well pointed out. What DarloRich should have said is that the PM did visit victims, in hospital, in a controlled environment, a couple of days after the event and a couple of days after being told by everyone from the public to her aides that she really ought to be showing more leadership.

I am indebted to the Honorable gentleman for his intervention.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, well pointed out. What DarloRich should have said is that the PM did visit victims, in hospital, in a controlled environment.

Speaking very strictly from a purely medical point of view, I should sincerely hope that all hospitals are seen to be controlled environments for purposes of the required treatments of those admitted.

 

[takno]

Where do they go I wonder? Are they morally flexible enough to get a job with the other side?

The PR people went into jobs outside politics

 

[Dai Corner]

The Downing Street Director of Communications and Press Secretary both left rather suddenly

http://www.prweek.com/article/1431178/theresa-mays-press-secretary-departs-days-comms-chief-resigns

Lizzie Loudon today left her role as Downing Street press secretary, a political appointment, a spokesman for May said.

The departure of Loudon follows the news that May's director of comms Katie Perrior would leave her role shortly. Perrior, who has now left Downing Street, made her intentions known on Tuesday just hours after May announced her intention to ask parliament to give the green light to a general election.

 

[AlterEgo]

I should sincerely hope that all hospitals are seen to be controlled environments for purposes of the required treatments of those admitted.

Indeed! Just the place to come into contact with the affected public, where nobody will ask a difficult question in front of a camera!

 

[Dai Corner]

Indeed! Just the place to come into contact with the affected public, where nobody will ask a difficult question in front of a camera!

Personally, if my house had been burned down, I'd lost friends and relatives and was in hospital in pain from burns or the effects of inhaling smoke and fumes the last thing I'd want is politicians and media around.

Many people do seem to have a need to see pictures of victims and politicians together though.

 

[AlterEgo]

Personally, if my house had been burned down, I'd lost friends and relatives and was in hospital in pain from burns or the effects of inhaling smoke and fumes the last thing I'd want is politicians and media around.

Many people do seem to have a need to see pictures of victims and politicians together though.

Seemed to work fine in the Blitz.

Jeremy Corbyn went down to "ground zero" at Grenfell and was greeted with open arms by pretty much everyone.

 

[Dai Corner]

Seemed to work fine in the Blitz.

Jeremy Corbyn went down to "ground zero" at Grenfell and was greeted with open arms by pretty much everyone.

I know, it's just that I'm a private, retiring sort of person who doesn't like being in the limelight. A bit like the PM perhaps!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Seemed to work fine in the Blitz.

Now then, I have oft been decried for going back to the 1970s in postings and have been told to concentrate on matters affecting the current period of time, yet I see you make reference to a period some 30 years prior to that, even before my birth in 1945...:roll:

Is it one law for the meagre few Conservative voters on this website and another for everyone else.

 

[AlterEgo]

Now then, I have oft been decried for going back to the 1970s in postings and have been told to concentrate on matters affecting the current period of time, yet I see you make reference to a period some 30 years prior to that, even before my birth in 1945...:roll:

Is it one law for the meagre few Conservative voters on this website and another for everyone else.

I'm glad you agree that things have moved on quite a bit!

The need for visible leadership is, however, something which does not change much with time, though it does take different forms.

It is not acceptable for a PM to continuously avoid contact with the electorate; it is not just this occasion but throughout her tenure, and is a notable trend.

 

[DaleCooper]

Is it one law for the meagre few Conservative voters on this website and another for everyone else.

That does appear to be the case but at least we can all be sure that you are not the sort of person to use such a law to your advantage

 

[Bletchleyite]

The point has been made a few times in the media as well, but very few seem to get it.



It seems to make a mockery of permitting this type of cladding on buildings below 18m high as well doesn't it? It''s all very well saying that's fine because the presumption in that type of building is immediate evacuation, unlike with a high rise, but that still ignores the point that it is introducing a risk that is completely avoidable in the first place.

Risk assessment is not absolute, it's cost benefit. So it is not desirable to avoid all risks.

Applied to my house for example the carpet and curtains are a bigger fire risk than 3 square metres of the stuff under the front window.

 

[Groningen]

Grenfell Tower survivors not wanting to be rehoused elsewhere eg in Preston (over 200 miles away) are being threatened with being declared "intentionally homeless", which in reality means the council won't help them get rehoused.

Source: David Lammy Labour MP for Tottenham