On board catering: Which routes should (or shouldn't) provide it?

[trainmananthon]

Spoilt for choices last time I was on it.

Yep, we did used to have 10 different flavours but unfortunately the chap who did it retired. We have managed to find a new source which is just as good but hasn't got the same range of flavours - only 6 now.

We keep them stored in freezers at Settle and Appleby and transport them in a thermal bag.

 

[ScotTrains]

Cross Country trains really need to have more catering provision. eg The 0820 Aberdeen to Penzance has absolutely no catering until the train reaches Edinburgh. This is over 2.5hrs since leaving Aberdeen. For such a long distance intercity train at a peak time this is ridiculous! The train is often busy too, with seat reservations recommended between Aberdeen and Edinburgh. The train serves some large cities, eg Aberdeen and Dundee as well as many towns in Angus and Fife before it even reaches Edinburgh.

With politics fresh in the mind, perhaps the sweeping changes we've seen across the North East of Scotland (some areas having not seen a party change for over 20yrs) will result in MPs who will finally put pressure on XC to improve service provision. It should really have been in the franchise agreement from the start to include catering on these services. Local operator, Scotrail, can provide catering on almost all their Aberdeen trains and will soon have a galley kitchen onboard too, yet long distance operator XC provides nothing.

I've heard the reason is due to 'operational' reasons. ie catering staff all based in Edinburgh. I think this is just an excuse as most XC trains to/from the Glasgow extension also don't have catering either. These services are also busy and often at peak times, where catering would be popular.
I think we need more pressure put on XC otherwise we'll end up losing catering on more routes.

 

[Jonfun]

I've heard the reason is due to 'operational' reasons. ie catering staff all based in Edinburgh. I think this is just an excuse as most XC trains to/from the Glasgow extension also don't have catering either.

There's no operational reason why it couldn't happen. Yes, the catering crews are based in Edinburgh, but so are the drivers and guards. The unit for the service comes off Craigentinney then runs from Waverley to Dundee ECS.

You'd need a greater number of catering staff yes, and I'd imagine such an early start would be... unpopular. But it could be done if the will were there.

 

[Firesprite]

Interestingly I was on a CrossCountry service ex-Brum towards Stansted the other week. These services usually only have catering up to Peterborough, but the trolley kept on going at least until I got off at Cambridge. I was very surprised at how many passengers took something from the trolley - it did a roaring trade.

This is of course despite Peterborough and Ely having decent catering (and March with its shop, if that's still there) and many journeys on the end of the route being fairly short. On the basis of that journey, I'd say anything that would have classed as 'Alphaline' back in the day should work with catering provision for as much of the journey as possible - most certainly CrossCountry all the way to Stansted.

That started a fortnight ago, the trolley now stays on throughout to the Airport, As for the shop at March, It is pot luck to find it open. The old chap who had it before was open from 7am to 6pm Mon-Sat.

 

[Clansman]

I believe that all intercity services and a select number of regional services should provide catering.

On Intercity routes, I think that a trolley should be provided with at least a part-time run shop counter - which can be operated by the trolley person without the need for more staff and allows walk up catering provision for the majority of the service. I also think that it'd be a happy medium for TOCs like GWR and XC, who are in the process or currently have, phased out buffet counters.

Although I can only really speak for Scotrail on this one, I think some regional routes merit at least a trolley service also. Examples from up here are Perth/Dundee to Edinburgh semi-fast services, which are always busy right from the offing - a number of times I've heard passengers ask the guard if there's catering availible on these services. Goodness knows how XC commuters between Edinburgh and Aberdeen cope!

 

[Spankthemonkey]

Remove it altogether from every single service.

This. It loses huge amounts of money on virtually every line. Scrap it, and reduce ticket prices by the amount saved. Advertise this and people will buy into the "bring your own" mentality.

 

[Sprinter153]

GWR have just removed Rail Gourmet trolleys from Reading - Gatwick Airport services. It was a long running 'trial' but they stopped last month due to lack of patronage. I think it wasn't helped by being a relatively limited service, operating mainly on the 0934-1434 departures from Reading, although it seemed a bit inefficient operating them from Oxford.

When I worked those services towards the start of the trial the trolley did quite well. It was something a lot of airport passengers had been asking about for years.

Not sure about the Paddington-Bedwyn fast services, they were put on the same extended trial period.

 

[Clip]

This. It loses huge amounts of money on virtually every line. Scrap it, and reduce ticket prices by the amount saved. Advertise this and people will buy into the "bring your own" mentality.

Theyll never reduce ticket prices as it would be such a miniscule amount that it wouldnt even register as a 0.000001% of costs.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I have two issues with on-board catering - availability and cost.

In the old days with fixed buffets, you knew where to get refreshments. And because they were fixed, the range was a bit wider. Since 'trolleys' have appeared, things have gone down hill.
- You never know when they will appear.
- Quite often they go missing full stop. XC are notorious for this. This isn't helped by the staff changeover at B'ham New St. I used to regularly travel from Derby to Banbury and often got the 'we are stopping the catering as we have a staff handover at Birmingham New St' message as we pulling out of Derby station, with the trolley often not reappearing until halfway between Leamington Spa and Banbury!!
- the range is rubbish, and quite often most things are sold out. I used to have a bacon roll on XC but that has changed to a bacon roll with spicy tomato salsa - not really my cup of tea first thing in the morning!!

The end result of this is that I only use the trolley service when I absolutely have to.

This then leads to the second issue where I guess the fewer people that use it, the more a premium the rail companies charge to use it.

 

[mildertduck]

Two that I would like to see are:

> Greater Anglia on the train from Peterborough to Ipswich. It (seems) to take an age, and doesn't really stop anywhere for long enough to grab a brew from a station en route
> TPE between York and Newcastle, especially giving they plan to go further than that some day.

 

[Tetchytyke]

This. It loses huge amounts of money on virtually every line.

What is it about the railways that mean they lose money on something that airlines can make huge amounts of money on? It can't just be staffing costs.

My personal view is that many TOCs deliberately downgrade the catering service, they deliberately make it unreliable and poor quality, with the sole aim of "proving" that nobody uses it and it loses money.

We've seen that with the GoVia franchises- London Midland, Southern, SouthEastern- who all got rid of catering after gradually running it down to the point of uselessness. A common tactic is to only run catering services on weekday off-peak trains and then claim "numbers are down" and that there isn't enough custom to justify the service. Well of course numbers are down if you only provide catering when your train is quiet.

It's the same deal on XC. They rip out the shop, they cut staffing hours down (the last northbound train with catering now leaves Birmingham at 1900), they cut sections of route, they cut quality and they whack up prices. Guess what happens?

The solution is to force franchisees to operate it, as we've seen with the new TPExpress franchise. If they are forced to provide catering then they will, and if they are forced to provide it they will be pragmatic, see it as a revenue stream and decide to do it properly.

TPE between York and Newcastle, especially giving they plan to go further than that some day.

TPE now provide catering all the way to Newcastle, they have done since the franchise change.

 

[boxy321]

If you were allowed[1] pilot-only operation (POO? ) I doubt it'd work quite as profitably for them.

TBH, if I were setting up a train service from scratch I'd combine roles[2] to be more like air stewards/stewardesses, but that's never going to happen on the existing railways, if nothing else the unions would never have it.

[1] It is allowed on very small planes, I've been on a floatplane in Canada that had one pilot as the only member of staff, the safety demo was on an iPad.

[2] i.e. have the first class steward and/or buffet/trolley steward also safety trained as a guard, and involved in the dispatch process etc, and checking tickets as they serve food, rather than one person doing each role. Not necessarily fewer people, just more mixed roles.

How about driver operated doors so a trolley wielding guard doesn't need to get off and have all their stock stolen at each station? There would still be on-board staff for emergencies and ticket checks and a split in revenue (a franchise, almost) would keep the staff interested.

 

[Essan]

Can't recall the last time I bought any food or drink on a train. Might have been last century ....

I tend to know in advance that I am going on a train journey and find it considerably cheaper and more convenient to bring any refreshments I might require with me, or occasionally purchase them from a shop en route to the station.

 

[NSE]

I don't take anything more than sub 1.5 hour journeys regularly. But my views are:

1) Too expensive. I can buy more from supermarkets and station outlets before travel (I do see the point for rural lines without these facilities of course). I'm also happy to be corrected on this, I just recall seeing trolleys go past with Coke bottles about £2. Prices may have fallen.
2) Poor choice. Its not that great. Sandwiches and crisps. Meh, plus the price of them. Double meh.
3) I'm gluten free. Loads of other people today have similar dietary issues and so its just easier to buy from Sainsburys or Tesco or supply from home. Whilst I appreciate many companies try and cater for this, the gluten free option often happens to also be the diary and lactose free, vegetarian and vegan friendly meal. I understand they're trying to kill as many birds with one cost effective stone. But it often ends up being kinda meh.

I don't plan to use it on the occasion I'm on a service that has it. Normally just grab a bottle of water if I fancy, but I can understand regular users bringing their own stuff as they don't want to take the chance on it being out of action or out of stock.

That said, I'm a big fan of Virgin's shop on the Pendos where the prices are lower and the selection greater. £3.50 for a pint can of Magners or Carling? Vegetable Crisps, Fizzy Water, and they accept Apple Pay.

 

[Carlisle]

I do think, though, that trolley services will only be successful if they can be relied on. On the journeys I've made on East Coast in the last couple of months, a trolley has been the exception rather than the rule. The result is that regular travellers plan on the basis that there will be no trolley and, accordingly, trolley sales decline.

Or they could of course choose to take a walk to the Buffet Car, if your referring to VTEC

 

[al78]

This. It loses huge amounts of money on virtually every line. Scrap it, and reduce ticket prices by the amount saved. Advertise this and people will buy into the "bring your own" mentality.

So if I am travelling from London to Inverness, a journey of over eight hours and covering two meal times, am I supposed to take a full days food supply with me as if I am going on a backpacking trip?

I get the increasing impression that there are a subset of people who want to solve the overcrowding problem on trains by making rail as inconvenient, unpleasant, and impractical as possible for as many people as possible. :roll:

 

[Essan]

So if I am travelling from London to Inverness, a journey of over eight hours and covering two meal times, am I supposed to take a full days food supply with me as if I am going on a backpacking trip?

I would (do). But then again, when I'm travelling that far, it's usually because I am going on a backpacking trip

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The ATW on train service was factored into the last (existing) franchise for not a lot of extra support and covered "Alphaline" routes + Cambrian from (I think) 0700 to 1900 , - but you get free extensions beyond this depending on depot and train start up / berthing etc. Apart from the extra passenger benefits , you get another person on board with some training and a pool of people who can progress , if they wish to other jobs in the company. (as well as providing decent enough jobs in some rural(ish) areas. Good move I think ...

 

[Spankthemonkey]

So if I am travelling from London to Inverness, a journey of over eight hours and covering two meal times, am I supposed to take a full days food supply with me as if I am going on a backpacking trip?

Yes, in the same way a huge percentage of the people don't pay full price walk on fares anymore then there are a huge number of us who don't pay walk on food prices too. I take a huge bag full of food on when me and the kids go Scotland. The argument that "it should be there if people need it" is dubious, people might like tv's in the back of the seats, but they bring an I-pad instead. Food could be seen as "part of the service" in which case it needs to be subsidised through ticket prices which it is, personally i'd rather bring my own food and pay less for my ticket.

I get the increasing impression that there are a subset of people who want to solve the overcrowding problem on trains by making rail as inconvenient, unpleasant, and impractical as possible for as many people as possible. :roll:

Nope, massive railway fan myself, but the system and service needs to move with the times.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Pre 125's We used to travel from Cornwall to Paddington on the Golden Hind 5am from Penzance arriving Paddington at 10 am. Return at 17.30 again the Golden Hind. Cheap Day Return! Full English Breakfast up and 3 course meal going back down. They had 4 sittings in the restaurant car. Food was excellent!
125's arrived but cheap day returns dissapeared, and restrictions eg business class train on the 5am from Penzance.
Today only 1st class can get a dinner.
IMO I think they are losing a trick not doing meals on longer journeys. Big advantage over driving, considering the time saved. No doubt the offer has to be more limited with smaller area to prepare meals. Wetherspoon type ping meals burgers & steaks could be a good offer.
The new trains on order for the Plymouth and Cornwall route will not be very practical for dining. (2x5 coach units)

 

[daikilo]

Pre 125's We used to travel from Cornwall to Paddington on the Golden Hind 5am from Penzance arriving Paddington at 10 am. Return at 17.30 again the Golden Hind. Cheap Day Return! Full English Breakfast up and 3 course meal going back down. They had 4 sittings in the restaurant car. Food was excellent!
125's arrived but cheap day returns dissapeared, and restrictions eg business class train on the 5am from Penzance.
Today only 1st class can get a dinner.
IMO I think they are losing a trick not doing meals on longer journeys. Big advantage over driving, considering the time saved.

I totally agree, if the offer can be structured to cover costs, and that is the issue. I am not convinced that more than a few passengers will choose the train to save on a food stop on a car journey. I am also concerned about leaving my seat and baggage to go to the restaurant car.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

On-board catering is some of the most profitable parts of the business for the likes of EasyJet and Ryanair. Three hours on a plane isn't very different to three hours on a train.

Not only are you a completely captive audience on a plane but you cannot bring on board nor are allowed to consume your own victuals unlike a train where you can not only take along a week's shopping from a supermarket but also the crockery and utensils to serve it on and the means to cook it with too.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not only are you a completely captive audience on a plane but you cannot bring on board nor are allowed to consume your own victuals unlike a train

You can consume food from home on a plane. You can also consume food and non-alcoholic beverages bought in the airport on the plane. Some airlines will restrict you taking hot drinks on board, and you can't drink alcohol bought elsewhere, but that's it.

It isn't very different at all.

 

[Parallel]

The trolley service I use most frequently is probably on the Cambrian. Westbound, usually because, although there is a Starbucks at Shrewsbury, it probably works out as more expensive than buying on the train, and it's usually quite busy and doesn't have much stock (sandwiches etc) left by the afternoon. Also, if I am travelling onwards towards Pwllheli, there is no catering between Machynlleth and Pwllheli and the station cafe at Mach closes quite early, and there isn't always time to run to Tuffins at the Texaco petrol station.

I also use GWR HST buffets occasionally because I like the option of having hot food - I.e. A bacon baguette. Need to try the Pullman dining at some point though!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

You can consume food from home on a plane. You can also consume food and non-alcoholic beverages bought in the airport on the plane. Some airlines will restrict you taking hot drinks on board, and you can't drink alcohol bought elsewhere, but that's it.

It isn't very different at all.

it's not only hot drinks but any bottles and what some consider 'bulky' or 'messy' food items. Which seems to be open to a very wide interpretation by some gateline crew (a hot dog with all the trimmings in one instance).

Also you are kind of restricted spacewise once on board - not as easy to lay out your snacks, plates, cups, microwaves, kettles etc cramped in to an airline seat as it is even in a train 'airline seat'

 

[bavvo]

Do any TOCs use onboard vending machines for snacks or drinks? That might be a reasonable compromise for lightly used services?

 

[Bletchleyite]

it's not only hot drinks but any bottles

Eh? You can take any bottle purchased at the airport (airside) on the plane. You can also take a bottle brought from home through security and on the plane provided it was empty when you passed through security. Many airports have a tap where you can refill it with water.

 

[fowler9]

It is in one massively significant way - on a plane, the mandatory staff responsible for safety are also serving the food - ergo it basically has zero staff cost. That is enough to tip the balance from it being a basket case to it being profitable. There's also an imaginary captive market (a lot of people think you can't carry stuff bought at the airport on when you mostly can, though rules on hot drinks do vary).

If you were allowed[1] pilot-only operation (POO? ) I doubt it'd work quite as profitably for them.

TBH, if I were setting up a train service from scratch I'd combine roles[2] to be more like air stewards/stewardesses, but that's never going to happen on the existing railways, if nothing else the unions would never have it.

[1] It is allowed on very small planes, I've been on a floatplane in Canada that had one pilot as the only member of staff, the safety demo was on an iPad.

[2] i.e. have the first class steward and/or buffet/trolley steward also safety trained as a guard, and involved in the dispatch process etc, and checking tickets as they serve food, rather than one person doing each role. Not necessarily fewer people, just more mixed roles.

The airline my sister works for makes enough money from on board food and drinks sales that she gets a bonus for them.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The trolley service I use most frequently is probably on the Cambrian. Westbound, usually because, although there is a Starbucks at Shrewsbury, it probably works out as more expensive than buying on the train, and it's usually quite busy and doesn't have much stock (sandwiches etc) left by the afternoon. Also, if I am travelling onwards towards Pwllheli, there is no catering between Machynlleth and Pwllheli and the station cafe at Mach closes quite early, and there isn't always time to run to Tuffins at the Texaco petrol station.

I also use GWR HST buffets occasionally because I like the option of having hot food - I.e. A bacon baguette. Need to try the Pullman dining at some point though!

Use the trolley before Mach is a frequent warning I give to tourists! Having been stuck in Harlech for 90 minutes after the station adoption conference a couple of years ago i know the place was closed on a Wednesdayafternoon!

 

[MrCub]

I like the idea of vending machines on long distance trains. I understand there isn't a need on short-hop local lines, but if you're going from Exeter to Sheffield a cup of tea would be good. I do agree with the earlier comment; there does indeed seem to be people trying to make long distance rail travel as awful as they can by introducing short, cramped trains and removing all sense of on-board experience and quality.