Manchester Arena Incident (22/05/2017)

[AlterEgo]

The army are an already paid-for resource that can free up armed police. Why wouldn't you use them in the current climate?

I meant, every day, forever? Why?

In the short term during a time of enhanced alert, sure. But not routinely, every day, forever.

 

[Eccles1983]

When was the last time we had a serious gun/knife-based terrorist attack in the UK beyond one man on a suicide run? Like the so called 'Mumbai-style' attack often cited.



If we are going to have a 'Mumbai-style' attack which people often cite as an example of the need for armed police all over the place...... the attack will open when the attackers walk up behind the policemen who are just standing around and shoot them in the back of the head at point blank range.
Or take their head off with a machete.
Then you've handed the attacking force all the weapons and ammunition the police were carrying.

Except in this country armed police operate in pairs.

So unless the attacker turns into john wayne and can shoot 2 trained officers with a firearm before either can respond or he turns into bruce lee and can chop two heads off in one blow then what you are proposing is not going to happen. This also requires the officers to be totally oblivious to the surrondings, and have lost the use of the radios, and the cctv to be turned off as well.

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course the problem with this is that those who would commit such atrocities only need to get lucky once to inflict the pain and suffering we have seen in Manchester (and other cities before it). The security services need to get luck every single time. On the whole, thankfully, they do. I can't remember the figures but I'm sure MI5 or a similar agency released figures for the number of foiled plots in the previous twelve months and they were substantial.

We shouldn't lose sight of that.

Also don't lose sight of the fact that the Security Services are (by nature) not transparent, do not have a press office, and actively engage in misinformation and disinformation even within the UK. I wouldn't believe their statistics. There is no oversight of intelligence agencies and they are actually the most powerful people in the country.

The Security Services are not accountable to you or I, or even to Parliament.

 

[HSTEd]

Except in this country armed police operate in pairs.

And you plan to run a Mumbai/Paris style attack with one man?

This also requires the officers to be totally oblivious to the surrondings, and have lost the use of the radios, and the cctv to be turned off as well.

So CCTV can tell which people have a firearm concealed under a coat or bag or in a newspaper?

 

[Iskra]

Even more so when the terrorist is willing to kill themselves in the process.

What are these glaring weaknesses'?

1) One way or another, suicide bombers/terrorists are being successfully radicalised and equipped within our communities.
2) There is not enough scrutiny placed upon those returning from countries where there are terrorist organisations.
3) Individuals previously known to our security services are able to remain free and commit atrocities without detection.
4) People are able to produce bombs in our country undetected.
5) A general lack of vigilance allowed someone with a rucksack full of explosives to infiltrate a city centre.
6) There are a plethora of soft targets available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

4) People are able to produce bombs in our country undetected.

Given that this can be done with everyday items, how do you propose to detect it?

5) A general lack of vigilance allowed someone with a rucksack full of explosives to infiltrate a city centre.

What are you going to do to stop that? Body scanners and X-ray machines on every street?

I fear this *cannot* be stopped.

 

[bramling]

I seem to recall for the London bombings the bus bombing was plan B due to the suicide bomber getting scared off by the security presence at a tube station.

That's not how I remember it. No one seems to know for sure, however the generally accepted theory is that the fourth bomb was intended for the Northern Line, however due to a defective train elsewhere on the line he wasn't able to board the planned train, so he hung around for a while, then boarded a bus instead. An alternative was that he lost his nerve, then having become aware that the other three had carried out their acts, he decided to board a bus.

 

[RichmondCommu]

When was the last time we had a serious gun/knife-based terrorist attack in the UK beyond one man on a suicide run? Like the so called 'Mumbai-style' attack often cited.

Well the IRA were pretty active before the peace process and they operated in pairs from what I can remember. How about answering my question?

 

[Iskra]

Given that this can be done with everyday items, how do you propose to detect it?



What are you going to do to stop that? Body scanners and X-ray machines on every street?

I fear this *cannot* be stopped.

Large quantities of fertiliser don't feature in my weekly shop. If it needs to be treat like a controlled substance, so be it.

Obviously not, but there needs to be more education for the general public on reporting suspicious individuals ASAP. I've had project ARGUS counter-terrorism training and something that came out of it for me, is that the PC brigade have people scared stiff to report suspicious individuals for fear of being called racist. Like it or not, that's a significant barrier.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the PC brigade have people scared stiff to report suspicious individuals for fear of being called racist.

Great narrative, shame it isn't true.

People in officialdom can, will and do report suspicious behaviour they become aware of. I've had PREVENT training coming out of my ears. So has t'missus.

The problem is that people within the Mosques and teaching centres and local communities don't, for some unfathomable reason, trust the police and security services. I'm going out on a limb here but I'm guessing that experiencing high levels of racial abuse, and having high-profile political leaders blaming "Muslims" for everything, doesn't really encourage people to stick their neck out.

And it's the little things that are so pernicious: Thomas Mair is a "lone gunman" but Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale are "terrorists".

 

[DarloRich]

When was the last time we had a serious gun/knife-based terrorist attack in the UK beyond one man on a suicide run? Like the so called 'Mumbai-style' attack often cited.



If we are going to have a 'Mumbai-style' attack which people often cite as an example of the need for armed police all over the place...... the attack will open when the attackers walk up behind the policemen who are just standing around and shoot them in the back of the head at point blank range.
Or take their head off with a machete.
Then you've handed the attacking force all the weapons and ammunition the police were carrying.

:roll: lets not bother then. :roll: What is the alternative? A truncheon? get real.

 

[adrock1976]

My condolences go to the fatalities of the event the other day.

Reading though some of the posts on here make me think that the increase in types of acts like this, perhaps it is the government's foreign policy that may have had an effect and should be critical of?

To try and keep this thread as close to the Manchester attack as possible, I have started another thread about the government's foreign policy.

 

[Antman]

Except in this country armed police operate in pairs.

All the armed police I've seen in this country have been in pairs.

 

[EM2]

Obviously not, but there needs to be more education for the general public on reporting suspicious individuals ASAP.

Really?! I'd say I get a report from a member of the public about a person or a vehicle at least once a shift.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Do you really think a few people singing songs and holding hands and showing unity will convince ISIS that attacking us is pointless. As we have been holding hands, lighting candles and wearing tee shirts for some time why are Islamic terrorists still attacking us ?
These vigils might give some people a bit of comfort but ultimately are utterly pointless.

Sadly Liberals think that everyone should be nice to each other, the reality is that the planet isn't - we're in a dog eat dog / every man for himself world where only the strongest suvive.

I see these vigils pointless, it doesn't show unity whatsoever - to me its states that the liberals are wanting a "safe space" to run to. The truth is, that there is no safe space anywhere. Take ants for example, when some are killed by a foot doing them in the rest battle on, we should do the same.

 

[EM2]

The truth is, that there is no safe space anywhere. Take ants for example, when some are killed by a foot doing them in the rest battle on, we should do the same.

You feel no sadness for those that have died or been injured? You don't feel a need to remember them? That's what a vigil is for.
And who do you 'battle on' against? How are you going to do it?

 

[Dave1987]

With the Westminster attack the assailant was able to mow down, kill and injure innocent people on the bridge before managing to get a matter of feet inside the palace of Westminster before being shot dead. In the aftermath all that was talked about was reviewing the security at the Westminster to ensure MPs remained safe. I don't remember a single mention of why a vehicle was allowed to travel at speed down the pavement. It was all about the MPs and reviewing their safety. And now we have an utterly appalling attack on innocent children.

 

[AlterEgo]

You feel no sadness for those that have died or been injured? You don't feel a need to remember them? That's what a vigil is for.
And who do you 'battle on' against? How are you going to do it?

How do you remember people you never knew?

 

[EM2]

How do you remember people you never knew?

The nation manages it very well every Remembrance Sunday.

 

[AlterEgo]

With the Westminster attack the assailant was able to mow down, kill and injure innocent people on the bridge before managing to get a matter of feet inside the palace of Westminster before being shot dead. In the aftermath all that was talked about was reviewing the security at the Westminster to ensure MPs remained safe. I don't remember a single mention of why a vehicle was allowed to travel at speed down the pavement. It was all about the MPs and reviewing their safety. And now we have an utterly appalling attack on innocent children.

That's not true or fair.

There was a LOT of discussion about the merits of strategic bollards in the media. There have also been enormous bollards erected near Buckingham Palace, as well as several other locations, to guard gathering tourists from attack there.

 

[AlterEgo]

The nation manages it very well every Remembrance Sunday.

No, the nation remembers war, remembers the social, human and political costs of war, remembers the causes of war, and not individual people (remembering individuals is on an individual basis). PS: Remembrance Day is, in my view, unhealthy, so I wouldn't use it as an example myself.

I did not know any of the Manchester victims and therefore I cannot remember them. There is nothing else to remember, because their deaths were not a sacrifice, brave, heroic, an example, or anything else. They were - bluntly - murdered by a nail bomb in pursuit of a nihilistic ideology.

It is profoundly sad, but those are the facts. There is nothing to remember unless you knew the people themselves.

 

[Bletchleyite]

WI don't remember a single mention of why a vehicle was allowed to travel at speed down the pavement.

How do you propose that it would be prevented? Bollards along every pavement would be incredibly expensive. Meanwhile, driving on the pavement is not, and should not be, a summary capital offence, therefore shooting someone doing so is not acceptable.

 

[EM2]

I don't remember a single mention of why a vehicle was allowed to travel at speed down the pavement.

How do you stop it and still allow people to walk down it without hindrance?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

You feel no sadness for those that have died or been injured? You don't feel a need to remember them? That's what a vigil is for.
And who do you 'battle on' against? How are you going to do it?

Life goes on. Life is a battle itself.

Without going too far off topic - I don't see Corbyn and his band of Corbynisters holding vigils on Remeberence Sunday.

---

Two years ago Nigel Farage (whether you agree with him or not) warned about the rise of homegrown terrorists.

 

[EM2]

Life goes on. Life is a battle itself.

Without going too far off topic - I don't see Corbyn and his band of Corbynisters holding vigils on Remeberence Sunday.

 

[Darandio]

Without going too far off topic - I don't see Corbyn and his band of Corbynisters holding vigils on Remeberence Sunday.

Way off topic, and a bit of a disgrace that political point scoring has made its way into the thread.

 

[PHILIPE]

According the the "Wales on Line" site, the Quadrant Shopping Centre in Swansea was closed for a time this afternoon due to a suspicious package being discovered but which, fortunately, turned out to be a hoax. The perpetrator was traced and arrested. This sick person deserves to have the book thrown at him.

 

[Saint66]

National minute of silence to remember the victims will be held at 11am tomorrow.

 

[Dave1987]

That's not true or fair.

There was a LOT of discussion about the merits of strategic bollards in the media. There have also been enormous bollards erected near Buckingham Palace, as well as several other locations, to guard gathering tourists from attack there.

I watched a lot of the news coverage of it all and don't remember it being mentioned once. It was all about reviewing the security arrangements around the Palace of Westminster.

 

[Dave1987]

How do you stop it and still allow people to walk down it without hindrance?

Very very easily. You put concrete bollards up every so many metres so a vehicle has no chance of getting up speed. No hindrance at all.