Told to move from unmarked reserved seat...

[Bletchleyite]

In the case of walk-up fares the reservation is most definitely separate from the ticket - the latter is perfectly valid without the former.

And the former with a different latter, too, if, say, you lost it and purchased a new one.

 

[Antman]

And the former with a different latter, too, if, say, you lost it and purchased a new one.

The reservation has no purpose on its own. If you don't travel on the train you can't tell the train company "nobody sit in that seat, I have reserved it".

So it doesn't exist as a separate 'thing' you bought.

Anyway, distracts from the point of the train company selling you something and then choosing not to provide it because it would cost them too much money, so tough luck to the customer who paid for it in good faith.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyway, distracts from the point of the train company selling you something and then choosing not to provide it because it would cost them too much money, so tough luck to the customer who paid for it in good faith.

Reservations cost £0, so you have not been sold anything.

 

[najaB]

Anyway, distracts from the point of the train company selling you something and then choosing not to provide it because it would cost them too much money, so tough luck to the customer who paid for it in good faith.

It's rare that TOCs decide not to put reservations out because it will 'cost them too much money' - it's typically a choice between running the train on time or late (or not at all).

But hey, if they put the cards out you'd be criticising them for not running the train on time.

 

[Antman]

Reservations cost £0, so you have not been sold anything.

But you don't have anything for your £0 which you can use on its own, only something you can use with a ticket that costs £x. So it doesn't exist as a thing on its own as it serves no purpose on its own.

It's rare that TOCs decide not to put reservations out because it will 'cost them too much money' - it's typically a choice between running the train on time or late (or not at all).

And running the train late will cost the train company money, so the decision to not put out reservations is simply down to cost. The same as not delaying a train to remove someone who shouldn't be sitting in a marked seat is down to cost.

The customer buys a seat on a train. If the train company doesn't want to provide that seat by choice due to purely commercial reasons, it shouldn't be the customer that loses out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you don't have anything for your £0 which you can use on its own, only something you can use with a ticket that costs £x. So it doesn't exist as a thing on its own as it serves no purpose on its own.

That's often the case. You buy a walk-up ticket for £X, and an optional supplementary reservation for £0. With an Advance you buy a ticket and it comes free.

 

[najaB]

.The customer buys a seat on a train.

The passenger pays a fare.

If the train company doesn't want to provide that seat by choice due to purely commercial reasons, it shouldn't be the customer that loses out.

Nobody is suggesting that the passenger loses out. They simply make a compensation claim for having to stand on the service for which they had a seat reservation. What would be unreasonable would be to choose not to travel and then make a claim for being delayed.

 

[35B]

That's often the case. You buy a walk-up ticket for £X, and an optional supplementary reservation for £0. With an Advance you buy a ticket and it comes free.

I disagree on the Advance. It is a compulsory part of the transaction, with conditions that allow the operator to enforce use of the specific seat.

And, if I buy a flexible ticket and choose a seat reservation as part of that transaction (as distinct from at some later stage), it is clearly an implied term of the contract that the seat is part of the purchase.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[najaB]

I disagree on the Advance. It is a compulsory part of the transaction, with conditions that allow the operator to enforce use of the specific seat.

Increasingly they offer counted place reservations which don't include a seat assignment.

And, if I buy a flexible ticket and choose a seat reservation as part of that transaction (as distinct from at some later stage), it is clearly an implied term of the contract that the seat is part of the purchase.

I'm not 100% sure about that - seeing as it is entirely optional and doesn't cost anything extra - however, even if you do accept that as fact, Delay Repay wouldn't be the appropriate vehicle for compensation.

 

[snail]

One time I was asked to play musical chairs on a VT Pendolino because the electronic reservations had not loaded I emailed customer services to complain, and asked them to clarify their policy. I got their standard 'we're too busy to write a proper letter' response and a £50 travel voucher.

 

[bb21]

But you don't have anything for your £0 which you can use on its own, only something you can use with a ticket that costs £x. So it doesn't exist as a thing on its own as it serves no purpose on its own.



And running the train late will cost the train company money, so the decision to not put out reservations is simply down to cost. The same as not delaying a train to remove someone who shouldn't be sitting in a marked seat is down to cost.

The customer buys a seat on a train. If the train company doesn't want to provide that seat by choice due to purely commercial reasons, it shouldn't be the customer that loses out.

Would you like to bring a test case?

To be fair I am quite sympathetic to some of your views on this matter so you could bring a test case to clarify things for everyone and put this debate to bed once and for all.

That doesn't mean I am confident you will get anywhere with it, but it must be worth a try.

 

[najaB]

That doesn't mean I am confident you will get anywhere with it, but it must be worth a try.

I really don't think you would get anywhere by choosing not to board and then claiming delay repay. It would be much more useful to bring an action for breach of consumer law after having been forced to stand.

 

[Master29]

As an aside if you choose to reserve a seat having already purchased a ticket (not an advanced of course) over the phone or at a station it does cost around a fiver I think as I tried this about a year ago. Memory isn`t as good as it once was but I`m sure this was true.

 

[najaB]

As an aside if you choose to reserve a seat having already purchased a ticket (not an advanced of course) over the phone or at a station it does cost around a fiver I think as I tried this about a year ago. Memory isn`t as good as it once was but I`m sure this was true.

I don't think it always does, it varies between TOCs. I've definitely done it before for free - though it was a the station rather than over the phone.

 

[Llanigraham]

The customer buys a seat on a train. If the train company doesn't want to provide that seat by choice due to purely commercial reasons, it shouldn't be the customer that loses out.

No, the customer buys a ticket to travel.
Their ticket does not stipulate they will get a seat, or even that a train is involved.

 

[yorkie]

As an aside if you choose to reserve a seat having already purchased a ticket (not an advanced of course) over the phone or at a station it does cost around a fiver I think as I tried this about a year ago. Memory isn't as good as it once was but I'm sure this was true.

That was brought in by a couple of TOCs but it was unworkable, i don't think any bother (unless GWR does, but even if they still do, you just get it from another TOC's ticket office!)

I am disappointed one or two people think that it's right to turf someone out of an unreserved seat, but this is not the policy of all good train companies, and I concur with with the majority of contributors that there is no justification for this.

You don't pay for a seat; you pay a fare for travel.

If no seat is available whatsoever then you may either be entitled to compensation (eg VTEC have this policy) or will likely be given discretionary compensation.

If you have a particular need then the same principles apply as on any non-reserved train, and you ask for a Priority Seat.

(The only caveat with priority seats is that before you ask anyone to move, you ought to establish if any of the occupants have a hidden disability or are unwell/injured/pregnant etc as appropriate)

 

[Greybeard33]

If no seat is available whatsoever then you may either be entitled to compensation (eg VTEC have this policy) or will likely be given discretionary compensation.

TPE has now declined my request for compensation in respect of the journey I described in Post #31, where my wife and I had to stand in a crush-loaded 185 between York and Leeds but were then able to claim our reserved seats for the remainder of our journey to Manchester. The email explained:

I apologise that as the train was crowded you were unable to reach your booked seat for part of your journey, I appreciate the inconvenience caused by not being able to sit in your previously booked seats. However, because you sat in your reserved seats for the rest of your journey, I regret compensation is not payable in these circumstances and I apologise for any disappointment you may feel as a result of this.

A curious compensation policy!

 

[najaB]

A curious compensation policy!

It is indeed. I guess their reasoning is that you had your reserved seat for more than half the journey. I don't think it would've hurt them to chuck a few pounds your direction anyway.

 

[Cantab26]

TPE has now declined my request for compensation in respect of the journey I described in Post #31, where my wife and I had to stand in a crush-loaded 185 between York and Leeds but were then able to claim our reserved seats for the remainder of our journey to Manchester. The email explained:
...
A curious compensation policy!

Rather odd indeed.

The Passenger's Charter states that:

• If you have a reserved seat but have had to stand, we will refund you 50% of the single leg cost of your journey.

Whilst one might argue that the reserved seat was 'provided', even if you were unable to reach it on the train, it seems clear from this bullet point that compensation should still be payable (perhaps based on the single fare from York to Leeds rather than the fare for the whole journey).

I would be inclined to escalate the matter and quote the relevant portion of the Charter to them verbatim.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I guess their reasoning is that you had your reserved seat for more than half the journey. I don't think it would've hurt them to chuck a few pounds your direction anyway.

It seems to be fairly standard, East Coast rejected my Seat Guarantee claim for a London-Newcastle train because I got to find a seat at York.

I rang them up and moaned at them for it, so they gave me some RTVs to make me go away.

 

[Bodiddly]

Regarding seat reservations, I had a doozy a few weeks back. Half empty train and a guy gets on at Aviemore. He then does the walking up and down flicking between his ticket/seat numbers thing. He then says to this other guy sitting at a table seat, 'you're in my seat can you please move'. The guy moved albeit a bit bemused and sat down across the aisle from me so I had a conversation with him about it. I told him there were no reservations on the train at all which had been announced when the train left Inverness. The chap said he moved because he didn't want to cause a scene, I told him I wouldn't have moved for the guy.
The reservation sytem is a huge pain in the rump. We have the idiotic scenario in Inverness of the mid morning Kyle train in the Summer months being almost completely reserved for coach parties, leaving around 8 seats unreserved. Crazy!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reservation sytem is a huge pain in the rump. We have the idiotic scenario in Inverness of the mid morning Kyle train in the Summer months being almost completely reserved for coach parties, leaving around 8 seats unreserved. Crazy!

If that's happening, more capacity needs to be provided.

 

[Tetchytyke]

We have the idiotic scenario in Inverness of the mid morning Kyle train in the Summer months being almost completely reserved for coach parties, leaving around 8 seats unreserved. Crazy!

We see that all the time on the Settle and Carlisle too, with the added bonus there that non-coach parties can't reserve a seat for themselves. A two-car 158, 1.5 carriages reserved for a coach party and standing room only from Keighley all the way to Carlisle. It's a bit better when they shove a dogbox on the back, but only just.

Whoever is responsible for that needs a slap.

 

[Segedunum]

We see that all the time on the Settle and Carlisle too, with the added bonus there that non-coach parties can't reserve a seat for themselves. A two-car 158, 1.5 carriages reserved for a coach party and standing room only from Keighley all the way to Carlisle. It's a bit better when they shove a dogbox on the back, but only just.

Whoever is responsible for that needs a slap.

Indeed I've been squashed into a full and standing 2 car 158 from Leeds to Carlisle on a Sunday with 1 carriage fully reserved for a coach party. Seemed absolutely insane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the coach parties are profitable, it should be possible to add an extra unit, as the coach party would pay for it.

If not, stop doing the reservations.

 

[Greybeard33]

Rather odd indeed.

The Passenger's Charter states that:



Whilst one might argue that the reserved seat was 'provided', even if you were unable to reach it on the train, it seems clear from this bullet point that compensation should still be payable (perhaps based on the single fare from York to Leeds rather than the fare for the whole journey).

I would be inclined to escalate the matter and quote the relevant portion of the Charter to them verbatim.

Thanks - I tried escalating it, quoting the Passenger's Charter, but TPE would not budge. I think TPE ought to amend its Charter to state explicitly that compensation will only be paid to passengers who have to stand for their entire journey, since that seems to be the TPE policy.

IMO it is inequitable that, of two passengers who have to stand between the same pair of stations, the one who disembarks gets compensation while the one who remains on board does not.

 

[Cantab26]

Thanks - I tried escalating it, quoting the Passenger's Charter, but TPE would not budge. I think TPE ought to amend its Charter to state explicitly that compensation will only be paid to passengers who have to stand for their entire journey, since that seems to be the TPE policy.

IMO it is inequitable that, of two passengers who have to stand between the same pair of stations, the one who disembarks gets compensation while the one who remains on board does not.

If they have a policy, they should publish it. Especially if the actual policy is more restrictive than would first appear from the Charter. Perhaps I should see if my mother needs a proxy to attend the next AGM...

 

[gray1404]

I've been on a Northern service on the S and C with Reservations. I've often wondered how valid these are given Northern do not advertise reservations. In the same way first class accommodation is not enforceable if not advertised as being conveyed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Thanks - I tried escalating it, quoting the Passenger's Charter, but TPE would not budge.

Try Transport Focus. They might not budge, but at least you get to waste a bit of their time.

 

[beeza1]

A couple of weeks ago I traveled from Manchester to Birmingham on a Cross Country service, I make this journey a couple of times a month and usually book online to make sure I have a seat, on this occasion I was not sure what time I would be traveling so didn't reserve a seat when I booked my ticket, I intended to use the "Ten Minute Reservation" but, as usual all I got was the "No Seat Available" message. I got on the train and found an "Available" seat, the train was very busy with several people standing.
When we got to Wolverhampton a member of station staff was giving assistance to some passengers, (who clearly would have been unable to stand), got on and informed myself and 3 others politely but firmly, "sorry folks, these 4 seats are reserved", a quick glance at the overhead displays, were still still showing "Available", the people were clearly in need of a seat so we all vacated and had to stand for the rest of the journey. What I can't understand is why they chose these particular seats, they were in the middle of a packed carriage, making it difficult for the people to even get to them.
Flash back a couple of months when I had recently come out hospital myself and would not been well enough to stand, what would have happened if I had refused to move, explaining why I could not stand?