New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[yorksrob]

*****

 

[yorksrob]

So on the one hand a couple of 158s released from use on SWT electrified routes won't be enough to strengthen services west of Salisbury and will instead be whisked away somewhere else, but on the other hand the couple of units that actually are away with GWR and EMT would make a difference. Which is it to be?

Nor would transferring just a couple of 158s to GWR make a fundamental difference to GWR services - which is why the mini-HST plan was developed, in order to cover services that GWR initially planned to switch its 158s to, before the number of Turbos heading west started to shrink due to electrification delays.

If the Exeter route needs relieving then why has the current regime at SWT - as I'm sure you are aware - been adding assorted dmu-worked services to its timetable in the past couple of years in areas previously the domain of GWR?

If the Salisbury-Exeter route is lacking in capacity, then about the last thing the ORR should be doing is allowing SWT to send its trains wandering about in parts of Somerset well off the core route.

Passenger numbers at stations along the Salisbury-Exeter route don't show any signs of explosive growth in the past five years, nor is every passenger at Salisbury going to London, so where's your evidence that the current service isn't adequate, nor allows for future growth?

Just because First/MTR have yet to make any announcements about Salisbury-Exeter doesn't amount to some sinister hidden agenda - perhaps it's because carrying on much as we are just isn't that exciting or headline-grabbing - unlike cheering up Portsmouth route passengers by bringing back 442s and promising yet more extra trains for London commuters or speeding up Southampton-Bourmemouth-Weymouth services...

The couple of units currently on electric lines plus the couple of units on sabbatical makes at least four units, which begins to look a bit more realistic, given that you're likely to have a couple of trains each way between Salisbury and Exeter at any given time.

Look at the minutiae of detail in the list of improvements. If they were planning to supplement the WofS services that are currently standing room only, don't you think they'd be shouting it from the rooftops ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Appears the new female announcement voice has leaked too: http://chirb.it/Fm7y0q

That's a fake synthesised voice.

 

[swt_passenger]

Probably because they couldn't be bothered to read the ITT and see how close First's winning bid is to the specification.

I agree entirely - and it isn't just with this franchise competition and result. Despite most public information relevant to franchise specs usually being linked to and discussed when first published, it seems to pass many posters by completely.

There's too many kites being flown about Salisbury to Exeter. The spec says no change and no change has been announced.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will all stations that have SWTs services terminated at them gain barriers if they don't already have barriers?

Installing new gatelines at a number of stations

It doesn't suggest all stations does it? Sounds more like certain key stations will get ticket barriers. There are a number of places where their absence is surprising, Eastleigh being a good example.

But at the same time there are some stations like Southampton Airport Parkway that would be quite difficult to do.

 

[jimm]

The couple of units currently on electric lines plus the couple of units on sabbatical makes at least four units, which begins to look a bit more realistic, given that you're likely to have a couple of trains each way between Salisbury and Exeter at any given time.

Look at the minutiae of detail in the list of improvements. If they were planning to supplement the WofS services that are currently standing room only, don't you think they'd be shouting it from the rooftops ?

Did you actually read what I said - that carrying on as we are doesn't make a great story? And carrying on much as we are on the West of England route is what's happening, as swt_passenger keeps pointing out...

Many of SWT's recent timetable changes have been with the specific aim of adding capacity as far as Yeovil, to ease pressure on the Exeter trains.

If the overcrowding situation was as bad as you seem to think it is, then they presumably would never have been allowed by DfT/ORR to provide the 'off-piste' trains in the first place, to use dmus on electrified lines, or to sub-lease sets to GWR and EMT...

 

[Matt Taylor]

It doesn't suggest all stations does it? Sounds more like certain key stations will get ticket barriers. There are a number of places where their absence is surprising, Eastleigh being a good example.

But at the same time there are some stations like Southampton Airport Parkway that would be quite difficult to do.

Fratton is another glaring omission, Poole is a possibility as are Fleet, Totton and Godalming.

 

[HowardGWR]

Does anyone have evidence of overcrowding on the Salisbury-Exeter services? The only anecdotal observation I have is on the 0641 ex Exeter, which gets a bit cosy from Tisbury into Salisbury (arr 0841) for hopefully obvious reasons. At Salisbury, an extra 159 set is coupled. All other overcrowding on these services I have observed, is east from, or west to, Basingstoke, where the line takes on a fundamentally different character.

Oh, there can be overcrowding from Exeter to Honiton during the summer, but this is an exceptional experience.

I haven't used all trains on that line though.

 

[yorksrob]

Did you actually read what I said - that carrying on as we are doesn't make a great story? And carrying on much as we are on the West of England route is what's happening, as swt_passenger keeps pointing out...

Many of SWT's recent timetable changes have been with the specific aim of adding capacity as far as Yeovil, to ease pressure on the Exeter trains.

If the overcrowding situation was as bad as you seem to think it is, then they presumably would never have been allowed by DfT/ORR to provide the 'off-piste' trains in the first place, to use dmus on electrified lines, or to sub-lease sets to GWR and EMT...

I did read what you said, however you miss the point that in post 1177, there is a long and impressive, and laudable list of improvements, ranging from lots of new trains on several routes to infotainment on express trains, working toilets on mainline trains and longer booking office hours. I would have thought that a commitment to increased capacity west of Salisbury would have slotted in quite nicely to this list of headlines, many of which seem less important, particularly given the local rail users group has been so vocal on the need for longer trains, yet there is no mention. Perhaps there is some desire that hasn't been outlined to increase capacity west of Salisbury, however I am sceptical that giving away more of your scarce diesel stock will be an effective way of increasing capacity.

I don't claim to be party to the mysteries of the DfT. All I will say is that on various occasions I have been stuck on a single 159 which has been full and standing West of Salisbury, which suggests to me there is a capacity issue.

 

[emil]

Does anyone have evidence of overcrowding on the Salisbury-Exeter services? The only anecdotal observation I have is on the 0641 ex Exeter, which gets a bit cosy from Tisbury into Salisbury (arr 0841) for hopefully obvious reasons. At Salisbury, an extra 159 set is coupled. All other overcrowding on these services I have observed, is east from, or west to, Basingstoke, where the line takes on a fundamentally different character.

Oh, there can be overcrowding from Exeter to Honiton during the summer, but this is an exceptional experience.

I haven't used all trains on that line though.

This morning's service was reported full and standing at Salisbury 1L22

 

[emil]

Fratton is another glaring omission, Poole is a possibility as are Fleet, Totton and Godalming.

Poole would be difficult due to access to shop/cafe/ticket office and toilets plus 3 external access points on platform 1.

 

[jimm]

I did read what you said, however you miss the point that in post 1177, there is a long and impressive, and laudable list of improvements, ranging from lots of new trains on several routes to infotainment on express trains, working toilets on mainline trains and longer booking office hours. I would have thought that a commitment to increased capacity west of Salisbury would have slotted in quite nicely to this list of headlines, many of which seem less important, particularly given the local rail users group has been so vocal on the need for longer trains, yet there is no mention. Perhaps there is some desire that hasn't been outlined to increase capacity west of Salisbury, however I am sceptical that giving away more of your scarce diesel stock will be an effective way of increasing capacity.

I don't claim to be party to the mysteries of the DfT. All I will say is that on various occasions I have been stuck on a single 159 which has been full and standing West of Salisbury, which suggests to me there is a capacity issue.

Just because something would be nice to have, doesn't mean it's going to happen, especially in the current financial climate.

Your anecdotes and what the rail user group says don't amount to a compelling case for longer trains west of Salisbury. If there was a serious problem with overcrowding there, then it would have been picked up by the consultation prior to the ITT being issued.

Steps have already been taken in the past couple of years by SWT to address issues it had identified as the incumbent operator and the ITT did not require the bidders to deliver more capacity - so there was nothing about it in that list.

How many more times do you have to be told no one is

giving away more of your scarce diesel stock

All the 158 and 159 sets currently in use on SWT duties are staying with the franchise after August.

And the ability to expand the network of diesel services over the past couple of years, even while two of SWT's dmus are leased out elsewhere and others cover diagrams on electrified lines, hardly suggests something in short supply. Unlike at AGA, where every dmu v vehicle incident at a level crossing causes a crisis.

 

[Kite159]

This morning's service was reported full and standing at Salisbury 1L22

Was that reported F&S before or after any additional coaches were added at Salisbury (if any additional coaches were indeed added)?

Services can get busy after Basingstoke where there are notable gaps in fast services

 

[jimm]

This morning's service was reported full and standing at Salisbury 1L22

a. Please don't just use train headcodes in posts - this is as much of a pain as people referring to stations with the three-letter code

b. Please give the full picture - a quick check on realtimetrains shows that the 05.10 from Exeter to Waterloo was cancelled, with the service restarted from Salisbury, so 1L22, aka the 06.19 from Honiton, was presumably picking up a few more passengers than usual this morning on its way to Salisbury...

 

[yorksrob]

Just because something would be nice to have, doesn't mean it's going to happen, especially in the current financial climate.

Your anecdotes and what the rail user group says don't amount to a compelling case for longer trains west of Salisbury. If there was a serious problem with overcrowding there, then it would have been picked up by the consultation prior to the ITT being issued.

Steps have already been taken in the past couple of years by SWT to address issues it had identified as the incumbent operator and the ITT did not require the bidders to deliver more capacity - so there was nothing about it in that list.

How many more times do you have to be told no one is



All the 158 and 159 sets currently in use on SWT duties are staying with the franchise after August.

And the ability to expand the network of diesel services over the past couple of years, even while two of SWT's dmus are leased out elsewhere and others cover diagrams on electrified lines, hardly suggests something in short supply. Unlike at AGA, where every dmu v vehicle incident at a level crossing causes a crisis.

And there's the rub.

My anecdotal evidence, plus the wishes of the rail users group don't amount to a business case. Thus it has ever been. This is precisely what I have been lamenting in my past few posts.

The people sat in the vestibules on my journeys may have been anecdotal, but they were real people, not Scotch mist. Maintaining the current number of DMU's will do absolutely nothing to improve their travel experience or facilitate future growth.

 

[Paul180]

Fratton is another glaring omission, Poole is a possibility as are Fleet, Totton and Godalming.

Godalming would be a bit difficult you would have to shut the back gate on to New Way just like the old days but as they now have the bridge with a lift witch makes it disabled compliant but it still would be a pain as the back entrance is very popular and the steps up from Westbrook road to the bottom of the top car park have been long shut off. the only problem with ticket barriers I have is there need backing up with revenue all the time that they are in use especially at Woking. Southampton Airport Parkway I am surprised that there is no barriers but as there is a back and front entrance / exit I am not I take it that you do revenue blocked on the station just like at Godalming at times.

 

[HowardGWR]

The 159s (and thus presumably the 158s) are not what I would call 'roomy', on the contrary. If it was thought commercially sensible, a re-seating exercise to just give that 5 -10 cms more room, each row, would be appreciated, I am sure. Remember that while we are discussing Salisbury to Exeter, many pax are going much further on nearly 3 hour journeys. 'Inter-city' it ain't, more like 'inter-town'. Some of the seating is looking and feeling a bit tired. I presume that loos have to be updated for handicapped pax, so perhaps we may see some improvements.

It is true, that at certain times of the day (evenings) the train from Waterloo empties by Salisbury and the three cars detached at the front are also well empty by, say, Crewkerne. I suppose we in East Devon, West Dorset, South Somerset (the line snakes along the borders) should be grateful for a through service, the coupling and decoupling making that possible.

 

[embers25]

a. Please don't just use train headcodes in posts - this is as much of a pain as people referring to stations with the three-letter code

b. Please give the full picture - a quick check on realtimetrains shows that the 05.10 from Exeter to Waterloo was cancelled, with the service restarted from Salisbury, so 1L22, aka the 06.19 from Honiton, was presumably picking up a few more passengers than usual this morning on its way to Salisbury...

The 0510 was also cancelled on Friday and given there's no train until the 0641 that is a significant gap. They often try to run a bus to connect with the 0619 but not sure if they did either day as usually it's mentioned on Journey Check but wasn't both days. Does anyone know what the reason is as I use this train regularly as it's much less busy than the 0641 or 0725.

 

[infobleep]

Weekday style timetable for Sunday afternoons, I hope that doesn't mean the XX:45 Andover Express services are axed (always feels strange belting it through Woking and a slow acceleration at Basingstoke when it catches up with a Weymouth service)

Berrylands will be interesting to see staffed all day

I thought they were only staffing stations with barriers and putting in barriers at some unstaffwd stations. Whether Berrylands gets barriers or not I wouldn't know.

 

[infobleep]

Staff currently receive an email that details internal infomation, added to what is available on the journey check system. For example;

Internal info;
1T62 received a COA on the Up main at Wallers ASH, signaller is keeping the signal at danger and trains will need to be talked past 2 signals on the up.

Customer info;
Due to a signalling problem between Winchester and Baskingstoke etc etc etc

I think an app may be better as you can go through the information more easily rather than searching through each individual email to see if it's relevant. What do others thing?

Of course the app has to be well designed. That but remains to be seen. I see so many poorly designed programs. Is as if they think it's a large firm so it doesn't matter, we'll get paid.

 

[Bookd]

Godalming would be a bit difficult you would have to shut the back gate on to New Way just like the old days but as they now have the bridge with a lift witch makes it disabled compliant but it still would be a pain as the back entrance is very popular and the steps up from Westbrook road to the bottom of the top car park have been long shut off. the only problem with ticket barriers I have is there need backing up with revenue all the time that they are in use especially at Woking. Southampton Airport Parkway I am surprised that there is no barriers but as there is a back and front entrance / exit I am not I take it that you do revenue blocked on the station just like at Godalming at times.

I know I am being cheeky about a spelling glitch, but I would like to know if the lift witch has any magical powers in the event of disruption!

 

[Class 170101]

If the Salisbury-Exeter route is lacking in capacity, then about the last thing the ORR should be doing is allowing SWT to send its trains wandering about in parts of Somerset well off the core route.

Perhaps you would prefer buses at weekends instead of trains being able to be diverted around the engineering works?

 

[infobleep]

Fratton is another glaring omission, Poole is a possibility as are Fleet, Totton and Godalming.

Didn't Fratton have barriers at one stage? I also think Portsmouth Harbour is odd or maybe it's Portsmouth and Southsea that's odd, as it actually has barriers!

 

[infobleep]

Poole would be difficult due to access to shop/cafe/ticket office and toilets plus 3 external access points on platform 1.

Could they not close some of the external access points. Oxford use to have access to both platforms I believe but they gated it and now access is only via the main entrance.

 

[jimm]

Could they not close some of the external access points. Oxford use to have access to both platforms I believe but they gated it and now access is only via the main entrance.

The gate at the back of platform 4 at Oxford (formerly 2) is opened in the morning and evening peaks for ticketholders only - though ticket checking is a bit random.

 

[antharro]

The 159s (and thus presumably the 158s) are not what I would call 'roomy', on the contrary. If it was thought commercially sensible, a re-seating exercise to just give that 5 -10 cms more room, each row, would be appreciated, I am sure. Remember that while we are discussing Salisbury to Exeter, many pax are going much further on nearly 3 hour journeys. 'Inter-city' it ain't, more like 'inter-town'. Some of the seating is looking and feeling a bit tired. I presume that loos have to be updated for handicapped pax, so perhaps we may see some improvements.

Let's not reduce seat spacing please. As you say, they're not exactly "roomy". I'm 6'1" and use every inch of space in standard!

They do have one disabled toilet. I'm not familiar enough with the relevant regulations to know if that's enough but they are fitted with one at the moment.

As for the interior, I like the seats, and I expect First will just re-cover them in due course.

 

[jimm]

Perhaps you would prefer buses at weekends instead of trains being able to be diverted around the engineering works?

Maintaining route knowledge for SWT diversions was going on prior to the public timetable changes in the past couple of years - two of the current passenger services via Westbury effectively use paths that were in the timetable previously for the purpose of route training. And it doesn't take running several trains a day to maintain knowledge - or have I missed the regular GWR services between Yeovil Junction and Exeter via Honiton?

If the seating capacity situation west of Salisbury is as desperate as yorksrob keeps insisting, then why was SWT allowed to start operating extra services off the main route? What are two of its 158s doing working for other operators and why is SWT using dmus to work electrified routes? Why didn't the franchise ITT require bidders to provide extra capacity between Salisbury and Exeter? Etc, etc.... maybe there isn't a capacity crisis after all.

 

[HowardGWR]

Let's not reduce seat spacing please. As you say, they're not exactly "roomy". I'm 6'1" and use every inch of space in standard!

They do have one disabled toilet. I'm not familiar enough with the relevant regulations to know if that's enough but they are fitted with one at the moment.

As for the interior, I like the seats, and I expect First will just re-cover them in due course.

I hadn't observed that one loo was disabled, sorry. Agree about the seat quality and refresh covers. I still think that 90% of the time, one could sacrifice one seat row and space the rest out. Not sure about the window spacings though, perhaps leave the table position ones alone and just deal with the airline ones.

 

[Bob M]

Why should tables get a view and not passengers in airline seats?

 

[Suraggu]

Maintaining route knowledge for SWT diversions was going on prior to the public timetable changes in the past couple of years - two of the current passenger services via Westbury effectively use paths that were in the timetable previously for the purpose of route training. And it doesn't take running several trains a day to maintain knowledge - or have I missed the regular GWR services between Yeovil Junction and Exeter via Honiton?

If the seating capacity situation west of Salisbury is as desperate as yorksrob keeps insisting, then why was SWT allowed to start operating extra services off the main route? What are two of its 158s doing working for other operators and why is SWT using dmus to work electrified routes? Why didn't the franchise ITT require bidders to provide extra capacity between Salisbury and Exeter? Etc, etc.... maybe there isn't a capacity crisis after all.

If i am honest most of the time there is not a capacity issue west of Salisbury. Yes on holidays half terms sundays trains west of Salisbury are considerably busier but from all reports seeing 6 car formations on the Exeter services could be the norm.