Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[Peter Mugridge]

Meanwhile, 700 026 has been seen in France today...

 

[gsnedders]

Those who know the layout and have followed the Thameslink project will understand. Pushing services through the core just doesn't make sense. Force people to terminate at Blackfriars and change trains. Ignore the protests and prevent a bottleneck before it happens.

I think more trains across the river is a good thing, but I totally agree that pushing more, longer distance services through the core seems doomed to fail currently: IMO, there's only two solutions: have a self-contained core section with cross-platform interchanges at the extremities (essentially turning it into a heavy rail metro system), or to build a second pair of lines across the Thames (which is never going to happen on cost grounds).

How many other railways in the world manage 24tph? RER A is something like 30tph during the peaks, but I can't think of many others… That's all manually driven, albeit with quasi-moving block signalling IIRC. At the same time, that doesn't have trains coming from remotely as far out as the Thameslink does… I remember some talk about GoA 2 ATO for it, but I don't know/believe that's happened yet?

 

[bramling]

I think more trains across the river is a good thing, but I totally agree that pushing more, longer distance services through the core seems doomed to fail currently: IMO, there's only two solutions: have a self-contained core section with cross-platform interchanges at the extremities (essentially turning it into a heavy rail metro system), or to build a second pair of lines across the Thames (which is never going to happen on cost grounds).

How many other railways in the world manage 24tph? RER A is something like 30tph during the peaks, but I can't think of many others… That's all manually driven, albeit with quasi-moving block signalling IIRC. At the same time, that doesn't have trains coming from remotely as far out as the Thameslink does… I remember some talk about GoA 2 ATO for it, but I don't know/believe that's happened yet?

It's not just the core that is unrealistic, but other parts of the proposed Thameslink network. For example, 6tph between Hitchin and Cambridge, with three different stopping patterns taking roughly 22, 30 or 40 minutes to clear the section all on one pair of tracks with virtually zero overtaking opportunity. Trains from the south will be emanating from as far away as Brighton, whilst to the north there are two single-track sections north of Ely. Anyone with half a brain can tell a mile off that this is not resilient. "It will work" just doesn't wash.

There are plenty of other places too- Hitchin, the Welwyn bottleneck, the slow lines between Welwyn and Potters Bar, the Alexandra Palace-Finsbury Park area, etc etc etc.

 

[Sunset route]

The one big reason why this will be doomed to failure is the "BML", so we will keep the 55 FLUs at three bridges and the other side of the water can have the 60 RLUs working out if Hornsey and thus spit the core up, lmao

 

[bramling]

The one big reason why this will be doomed to failure is the "BML", so we will keep the 55 FLUs at three bridges and the other side of the water can have the 60 RLUs working out if Hornsey and thus spit the core up, lmao

No thanks. Scrap the RLUs (perhaps alongside the 707s which it seems have fallen out of favour before even carrying a single passenger!), and we'll keep the 365s.

 

[59CosG95]

RLUs? FLUs? What have I missed?

Digressing, another set looks to have been delivered in the wee hours of the morning. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/H20886/2017/03/29/advanced

 

[trainmania100]

Does anyone have any light regarding this weekends test via HOVE will be on the saturday or the sunday?
I must plan in advance for seeing this AND the Bluebell Diesel Gala
Many thanks

 

[westcoaster]

You can release the parking brakes manually. It's not that hard.

The problem is once you use the key and pull them out, if it were to uncouple the unit could not be stopped.

 

[JohnElliott]

RLUs? FLUs? What have I missed?

Seems to me those are ready-made SR-style designations for the units: 12-FLU and 8-RLU.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

RLUs? FLUs? What have I missed?

FLU = full length unit, i.e. 12 car

RLU = reduced length unit, i.e. 8 cart

The 8-cars are needed for Sevenoaks and Sutton loop services south of the river, don''t know about north...

 

[adamedwards]

FLU = full length unit, i.e. 12 car

RLU = reduced length unit, i.e. 8 cart

The 8-cars are needed for Sevenoaks and Sutton loop services south of the river, don''t know about north...

Hatfield only has 8 car platforms. Also Hendon, which I also use. 8 cars will be on the stoppers with 12 car on faster trains to Cambridge, Bedford and Peterborough calling at stations with longer platforms.

 

[asylumxl]

Hatfield only has 8 car platforms. Also Hendon, which I also use. 8 cars will be on the stoppers with 12 car on faster trains to Cambridge, Bedford and Peterborough calling at stations with longer platforms.

It's such a shame Thameslink don't have SDO capable trains so they could use 12 carriage trains on 8 carriage platforms... Oh, wait .

 

[JonathanH]

It's such a shame Thameslink don't have SDO capable trains so they could use 12 carriage trains on 8 carriage platforms... Oh, wait .

Even if you can stop 12-carriage trains on 8-carriage platforms, in some places you don't fit inside points, junctions etc. Stopping a 12-car train on a regular basis at Tulse Hill wouldn't be too clever for example.

 

[asylumxl]

Even if you can stop 12-carriage trains on 8-carriage platforms, in some places you don't fit inside points, junctions etc. Stopping a 12-car train on a regular basis at Tulse Hill wouldn't be too clever for example.

True, but on some peak services in the morning (particularly those beginning at Bedford) it may well make sense to do so, if possible.

 

[westcoaster]

Even if you can stop 12-carriage trains on 8-carriage platforms, in some places you don't fit inside points, junctions etc. Stopping a 12-car train on a regular basis at Tulse Hill wouldn't be too clever for example.

But 700's are only SDO 6 1/2 at tulse hill so lots of point hanging on the island platforms.

 

[spark001uk]

Forgive my ignorance, but is 24tph even necessary?

 

[JonathanH]

Forgive my ignorance, but is 24tph even necessary?

It is only 24tph in the peak (and even then only really the high peak) in one direction. At other times, the Sevenoaks service terminates at Blackfriars and services from Littlehampton and East Grinstead don't run so 18tph.

 

[OFFDN]

Does anyone have any light regarding this weekends test via HOVE will be on the saturday or the sunday?
I must plan in advance for seeing this AND the Bluebell Diesel Gala
Many thanks

Sunday. From the people I've spoken to it should be mainly during the morning/early afternoon, but can't confirm. Keep an eye on realtimetrains/opentraintimes?

 

[Bald Rick]

It is only 24tph in the peak (and even then only really the high peak) in one direction. At other times, the Sevenoaks service terminates at Blackfriars and services from Littlehampton and East Grinstead don't run so 18tph.

Both directions.

 

[MikePJ]

There was a 700 in the sidings north of Cambridge station this morning, first time I've seen one there. Looked like a 12-car, but I couldn't tell as part of it was concealed by Mill Road bridge.

 

[urpert]

It is only 24tph in the peak (and even then only really the high peak) in one direction. At other times, the Sevenoaks service terminates at Blackfriars and services from Littlehampton and East Grinstead don't run so 18tph.

To be pedantic, the Sevenoaks trains only terminate at Blackfriars at weekends, during the week they run through to Kentish Town/West Hampstead.

 

[SprinterMan]

To be pedantic, the Sevenoaks trains only terminate at Blackfriars at weekends, during the week they run through to Kentish Town/West Hampstead.

Under the new timetable, off-peak M-F the Sevenoaks trains will terminate at Blackfriars, and the Orpington trains will terminate at Kentish Town.

Adam

 

[bramling]

Forgive my ignorance, but is 24tph even necessary?

Only in DFT's dreamworld. Everyone whose head is screwed on knows it won't be resilient. There are other ways of providing extra capacity, especially off-peak.

 

[urpert]

Under the new timetable, off-peak M-F the Sevenoaks trains will terminate at Blackfriars, and the Orpington trains will terminate at Kentish Town.

Adam

I thought that was just one of the potential options for the Dec 2018 timetable?

 

[SprinterMan]

I thought that was just one of the potential options for the Dec 2018 timetable?

It's the one they are going with AFAIK. In the peaks, the Sevenoaks trains will start back from Welwyn Garden City, calling at Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate, before running through the core via Finsbury Park.

Adam

 

[urpert]

It's the one they are going with AFAIK. In the peaks, the Sevenoaks trains will start back from Welwyn Garden City, calling at Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park and New Southgate, before running through the core via Finsbury Park.

Adam

Thanks. If it's settled that's good news for us on the Catford Loop (an effective doubling of our service to a London terminal).

 

[spark001uk]

Quick question - why does this class use both pans, whereas a pendo for example only uses one?

 

[Billy A]

Quick question - why does this class use both pans, whereas a pendo for example only uses one?

Built in redundancy, the train operates as if it were two units coupled together so a failure on one won't immobilise both. That's the theory anyway, the practice seems a little different.

 

[absolutelymilk]

There are other ways of providing extra capacity, especially off-peak.

Presumably off-peak is not where the demand is though. Could you explain how you think we should provide extra peak capacity?

 

[swt_passenger]

Built in redundancy, the train operates as if it were two units coupled together so a failure on one won't immobilise both. That's the theory anyway, the practice seems a little different.

345s seem to be the same (in terms of both pans up) as well, just checked a couple of videos of them on test.