New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[HH]

...not quite sure you mean R2D2 there. Anyway, besides the nostalgia, I do think it's a genuinely good voice for train announcements. It's clear and it carries very well (much easier to hear over accelerating diesels than Celia, say). It's well-spoken enough not to sound annoying (Atos Anne) but not too well-spoken as to sound overly posh. It also still sounds like a human being rather than a robot (is it Roger? The GWR one, honestly it took me a while to figure out that it WASN'T a text-to-speech voice...)

No I meant C-3PO. They all grate after a while, especially as the quality degrades over time.

 

[swt_passenger]

They haven't got enough to run the current service !

With no announcement about reductions in the west of England line services, I can't see the point of the earlier question. The fleet is now basically sized for the existing timetable, give or take the couple of units per day that run around over the third rail. Two units of the 11 strong 158 fleet have already gone elsewhere.

 

[Blaahh]

Wonder what will happen to the two SWT 73s, back to lease companies or sold?

 

[Uzair]

No I meant C-3PO. They all grate after a while, especially as the quality degrades over time.

Just a very well spoken man. Good quality announcements. Better than all the rest.

 

[Muzer]

Wonder what will happen to the two SWT 73s, back to lease companies or sold?

They still have 73s? I thought they'd long gone, at least as thunderbirds.

 

[HH]

They still have 73s? I thought they'd long gone, at least as thunderbirds.

There's one I think. Probably will go back.

 

[superalbs]

There's one I think. Probably will go back.

Will be a bit daft to discard of it now that they will be getting stock that they could actually be used to haul, but ok. :roll:

 

[Matt Taylor]

73235 is still owned by SWT but it's been in store for a few years. As for the franchise it appears First Group registered the domain swrailway.com in July last year. I'm hoping we'll have some tradition in the livery, preferably Southern Green.

 

[HH]

Will be a bit daft to discard of it now that they will be getting stock that they could actually be used to haul, but ok. :roll:

First have used Freight companies before, which is more flexible. How many drivers would have to keep up traction knowledge for one unit? It's a nonsense really.

 

[Olaf]

All the talk on here is about the future of some trains. Is there no view about whether the new franchise will really make the hoped-for big improvement for customers, and are there opportunities that have been ignored?

The bid is very 'brave' in view of the risks, and they may end up regretting it, though First and MTR should be able to address any shortfall their overseas operations.

Reducing the number of seats per carriage on the suburban services in the new vehicles along similar lines to that seen on the London overground to assist the capacity increase would not be popular.

If CR2 does not get a funding commitment, and is thus pushed back, then NR will need to be looking at alternatives and possibly accommodative works towards the end of the franchise and that would potentially affect service quality.

The introduction of DOO is going to cause service disruptions.

The fall in patronage on the Wessex Route (I have not looked at the numbers in detail yet) may be a continuing trend that I hope First and MTR took into account.

 

[The Ham]

Guildford - Farnham is a waste of time.

You have a 4 minute wait at Aldershot for a train and when you come back you have a 4 minute connection again.

Also there's the issue of platforming at Farnham, unless they completely rewrite the Guildford - Ascot timetable so that there's a decent gap between the Up/Down London's & Guildford - Farnham/Ascot trains.

You're going to need to have extra time to do the shunt move down the reception road, change ends and then back out again and still have a decent gap between the London's.

Headways under the new signalling is approx 3', but it's pointless running them too close as there won't be enough passengers to convey and make it worthwhile.

It has to be asked if one of the trains will miss out Wanborough or not, as most of the time you stop there no one boards or alights.

I would argue that Frimley to Guildford is a bigger waste of time, it is often quicker to get to Farnborough North and use that service that potter along via Aldershot. If someone was starting from scratch I think that (other than the issue of the level crossing at Farnham) that a direct (23 minute, or 15% faster) between Guildford and Farnham would look a better option than what happens currently.

It also has the scope to remove a lot of traffic along the Hogs Back (A31) during the rush hour, if it starts to then First could be onto a winner and may need to consider if they could increase the frequency.

 

[Ianno87]

We will have a situation where 2 First owned franchises will be in completion for London Bristol traffic.

I struggle to see two trains a day via Salisbury (at not the most convenient of times) with a significantly extended journey time as real 'competition', against a current 2tph and future 4tph service out of Paddington (for which plenty of seats will need filling off-peak)

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Which document of the ITT would I find whether they're allowed to operate the combined GWR and SWTs as one big company or have to operate them as 2 separate companies?

 

[AndyW33]

I think that "franchise holders aren't allowed to merge franchises themselves" is a rule that dates back to the disaster that was Connex. It may not even be contained in the ITT, but be part of the prequalification process.
Of course the DfT can and does merge and split franchises, but then the DfT writes the ITTs.

 

[The Ham]

I think that "franchise holders aren't allowed to merge franchises themselves" is a rule that dates back to the disaster that was Connex. It may not even be contained in the ITT, but be part of the prequalification process.
Of course the DfT can and does merge and split franchises, but then the DfT writes the ITTs.

There could well be done functions that First could run and "sell" to each of the franchises, such as complaints, website, HR, etc. Which would allow them to pool resources to make efficiency savings over their business. However, these are likely to be back office jobs and easy to reinstate by the next franchise holder.

Could there be times that GWR hire stock and drivers from SWT (or the other way around) possibly, but probably not more than would be the case of they were run by different companies.

If I was being sceptical, I would think that First are deliberately not replacing the 158's/159's until they bid for the GWR franchise so that they can announce new trains for SWT then sub leasing the 158's/159's to GWR. As by then it will be known as to whether the wires will be heading towards Salisbury by 2025 and therefore if bimodal trains would be sensible.

 

[infobleep]

WHY? Guards do play an in valuable service so it's obvious it's all about money to you then, its fantastic that SWT have a guard on every train.

Sorry I was being sarcastic. I love having guards on trains and I wouldn't want them to be me OBSs. If the rail industry can afford to not use some recently produced trains then they can surely afford to employ staff. I don't want to start a discussing on staff as those are elsewhere but I don't think one can totally ignore it given it seems the 707s are rumoured to be being bypassed. How much did they cost to make?

 

[infobleep]

The financial risk for the 707s lies with the ROSCO (Angel Trains), not the TOC or DfT.
Sometimes the DfT issues a Section 54 agreement which guarantees future lease revenues to the ROSCO beyond the end of the franchise in question (usually for something like 10 years).
It seems it hasn't in this case.
So it all depends what deal Angel has with Stagecoach on the 707s.
Cost reduction is a prime motive of the refranchising competition.

So is could getting new trains be cheaper than using the 707s for longer?

 

[infobleep]

It isn't just the ROSCO taking a haircut, though. SWT will have a comprehensive Driver and Guard training programme in full swing. Some sort of decision will now need to be made as to how long that needs to continue, to ensure there are enough crews for the 707s for the five minutes that they'll be in service, before being scrapped and a whole new plan developed for the replacement new stock. Those already trained on 707s will of course have to be retrained all over again, their newly gained traction knowledge going to eternal waste. All of this is not free, it costs an awful lot.

Network Rail will have just completed huge swathes of technical work to clear and approve the 707s on SWT metals, all of which will now have to be started all over again from scratch, because the manufacturer's badge doesn't suit the new boys. Again, that is not achieved free of charge.

If the trains are 'wrong', why the hell did the DfT approve them 10 minutes ago?! If they aren't 'wrong', then the new franchisee should be avoiding this absolute farce and making use of them. We can only hope that the incoming management don't take objection to the colour of the brickwork at Waterloo, or presumably they'll have the whole place demolished and rebuilt in a different shade of red!

Worst of all, though, is the system which allows the DfT to approve a TOC ordering a brand new fleet, towards the end of the franchise with bidding on the horizon, and then take the franchise away and give it to somebody else who makes it quite clear they don't want those new trains which the same government department has only just approved. The incompetence, the waste, and the general dog's dinner of the whole thing, just stinks.

As they say in parliament. Here here.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

By the time that the new units are a fair way into the build process, could they be considering an even wider fleet replacement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They aren't going to "be scrapped". They will go somewhere else, resulting in the scrapping of either some PEP or Mk3 EMUs. I still strongly suspect GTR, given that they are similar to the Thameslink EMUs. If the ROSCO have nowt else to do with them, the price is likely to be quite keen.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think that "franchise holders aren't allowed to merge franchises themselves" is a rule that dates back to the disaster that was Connex. It may not even be contained in the ITT, but be part of the prequalification process.
Of course the DfT can and does merge and split franchises, but then the DfT writes the ITTs.

VTWC and VTEC share the Virgin brand marketing, but not much else.

You'd expect cooperation between the First franchises, and First Group pooled its procurement of class 800 trains across GWR, TPE and HT.
But apart from the 15x fleet, there's not much that SWR has in common with GWR, at least for now.
It might have been different if GWR was taking delivery of new Desiros instead of 387s.
The procurement of "90 new trains" will be interesting, nonetheless.
First will probably announce the preferred supplier once the franchise contract is signed.
GWR, of course, will be refranchised itself in 2019, before the new SWR trains come on line.

 

[infobleep]

All the talk on here is about the future of some trains. Is there no view about whether the new franchise will really make the hoped-for big improvement for customers, and are there opportunities that have been ignored?

Personally I want to know what will happen to the peak timetables.

Will they be able to run a service from Woking to Clapham Junction during the morning high peak. Currently the paths used by stopping services are taken up by other metro services. This stopping services then use up paths north of Surbtion, that outside of the peak, the longer distance services only
use.

Will they be able to find away of running a semi fast or fast service that stops at Surbtion between 18.41 and 19.59. As they seem to be able to run fast services at 17.39, 18.09 and 18.40, it can be an infrastructure issue. Just rolling stock and staffing issue.

Harder may be still possible? Could they find away of being able to run a service to Alton that stops at Surbtion between 16.42 and 20.10. Every other hour south it has a service every 30 minutes.

Finally the hardest of all, is the possibility to run a semi fast service to Surbtion in the morning from anywhere. I'm aware the infrastructure plays a part here as there are less lines through Surbtion heading north than there are heading south.

I wonder if infrastructure upgardes will be announced as part of this franchise. We can do x but only if Network Rail do y. If Network Rail don't do y then x won't happen.

After all look at the North Downs Line, which was part of the Great Western Railway franchise award. Additional train per hour agree which currently can't happen due to level crossing issues that were already known about by some not but everyone it seems.

On a wider point, could more fast services stop at Wimbledon? They do so during the tennis, so could they do so at other times of the year or does the stopping for the tennis automatically delay the trains but due to numbers travelling them, it's worth delaying the trains?

Semi fast trains stop at Wimbledon on a Sunday. If they move to a Saturday frequency in the afternoon, which these cease?

 

[Clip]

The introduction of DOO is going to cause service disruptions.

.

I thought they were not going with DOO?

 

[HH]

There could well be done functions that First could run and "sell" to each of the franchises, such as complaints, website, HR, etc. Which would allow them to pool resources to make efficiency savings over their business.

First have been doing this for years, so it would be surprising if they didn't do it on South Western.

 

[HH]

Originally Posted by LNW-GW Joint View Post
The financial risk for the 707s lies with the ROSCO (Angel Trains), not the TOC or DfT.
Sometimes the DfT issues a Section 54 agreement which guarantees future lease revenues to the ROSCO beyond the end of the franchise in question (usually for something like 10 years).
It seems it hasn't in this case.

DfT no longer issues section 54s. This is a deliberate policy change.

 

[infobleep]

I would argue that SWT ordered the correct number of Desiros but they were then told after the order that they now had to take less.

So much for competition and letting the market decide then.

 

[infobleep]

Guildford - Farnham is a waste of time.

You have a 4 minute wait at Aldershot for a train and when you come back you have a 4 minute connection again.

Also there's the issue of platforming at Farnham, unless they completely rewrite the Guildford - Ascot timetable so that there's a decent gap between the Up/Down London's & Guildford - Farnham/Ascot trains.

You're going to need to have extra time to do the shunt move down the reception road, change ends and then back out again and still have a decent gap between the London's.

Headways under the new signalling is approx 3', but it's pointless running them too close as there won't be enough passengers to convey and make it worthwhile.

It has to be asked if one of the trains will miss out Wanborough or not, as most of the time you stop there no one boards or alights.

Well why didn't South West Trains reduce the official connection time at Aldershot to 4 minutes then? Resolves the problem. Other stations less 5 minutes connection times. It's one of SWTs weaker points that's for sure, in that the most likely fastest most journey is never shown, so many people are unaware of it!

 

[infobleep]

How will the new franchise starting in August impact on the communications surrounding the rebuilding work at Waterloo?

Will Stagecoach have any interest in promoting it quiet the same, now they are laying the franchise.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will they be able to run a service from Woking to Clapham Junction during the morning high peak.

Not unless the infrastructure interventions (discussed quite a few times already) happen, namely the 5th tracking inbound from Surbiton OR the building of Crossrail 2, one or other is required to get those outer suburban services you mention off the fast lines.

So I'd say a definite NO in the timescales of this franchise, and especially in the 2018 timetable.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which document of the ITT would I find whether they're allowed to operate the combined GWR and SWTs as one big company or have to operate them as 2 separate companies?

Don't even bother looking, they won't be combining the franchises operationally. There's no precedent for it, not even with similar neighbours such as Southern and Southeastern. The owning group can consolidate certain back office functions, that's all.

The next GW ITT is due next year, with franchise award in 2019 and start in early 2020. By the time everything was joined together they'd be splitting it up again.