East Midlands Trains General Discussion

[Mintona]

Is part of the reason that Liverpool - Norwich is overcrowded becuase there is not any other services form East Midlands to the North West?

Not without a change at Sheffield.

 

[devon_metro]

156s on Stopping Services nobody on em

Please learn how to quote properly, your posts make no sense at all otherwise!

 

[MCR247]

I seen pictures of the interior of 158882 taken on 29th January 2009 at Lincoln and it was immaculate! - see here

What do you suggest Northern use? Most of their fleet is made up of 2 car trains. Whats wrong with 156s on stopping services anyway? All if not most of Northerns routes are stopping anyway.

Do EMT use the PIS displays. I know they were installed by SWT, but can they program the visual announcements?

 

[EM2]

B-Whom operates the Buffet on the HSTs

C-Whom operates / Runs the Shops on Merdians

EMT staff operate them. If you mean who supplies them, then it's Rail Gourmet.
And it's who, not whom.

 

[WillPS]

To me personaly there seems to be something fishy about East Midlands Trains as they seem to have the same tricks as Northern and Merseyrail ie..

-Intentionaly Short forming trains

-Poor Maintiance

-Dirty Trains / Lack of interior cleaning

All of your points are ill-founded. 'Intentionally' short-forming trains? Come on!!

Poor maintenance - from what I've heard their maintenance is pretty good given the kit they have to deal with!! The main issue is that they have no stand-by units, so if a Sprinter dies then that means another service can't be strengthened.

Is part of the reason that Liverpool - Norwich is overcrowded becuase there is not any other services form East Midlands to the North West?

Partly - but if all the intermediate stops (already served by similar services) such as Widnes, Alfreton, and all those insignificant ones up to Liverpool were taken away then people wouldn't use it as a local service along the way.

 

[tbtc]

158's are NOT suitable units for this route as they are too short, not fast enough, underpowered with appalling cab conditions, and they are long past their sell by date for express running. This is the year 2009, there should be something much better on a Class 1 train!

Personally, I feel a 158 style train is perfect for the route. Yes, they are getting old, but they suit a long(ish) distance route with that pattern of stops. It's certainly not a Class 1 service at the moment (not "Intercity" by normal definitions).

Fair enough, if you're going to speed it up by omitting places like Widnes and Alfreton that have a "local" Northern Rail service, then an upgrade to a 185/ Voyager style unit starts to make more sense, but for the service at the moment a 158 is just right - it's a shame they aren't long enough though - could do with a four car one on the route north of Nottingham certainly.

 

[A0]

This is what I can understand, and what I think is going to happen with changes around the central belt:

Scotrail is currently going to get 38 380s, which will replace the 334s and 318s, and after a load of complicated cascading, and the opening of the Airdrie-Bathgate rail link making even more cascading, it's likely to end up with the 314s, 318s and 320s either being scrapped or sent to other TOCs (which seems less likely, as I dont think there's going to be a huge demand for 30 year old 25kV EMUs by that point), as the 314s will be over 30 years old and the 318s and 320s will be almost 30 years old by then.

Interesting question as to what would happen to the 314 / 318 / 320s.

Depending on what new stuff is coming, I could see all of these being usefully redeployed:

314s could move to NXEA for local services from Liverpool St as they're similar to the 315s.

318s could move to FCC or NXEA to strengthen the 317s.

I suspect the 320s will be in demand from several places as the 321s which Silverlink are releasing seem to have found a new home with NXEA fairly quickly.

318s and 320s could also go to Northern for Manchester area locals - though the lower speed of the 320s (75mph according to Wikipedia) could cause a problem.

 

[ashworth]

There has been much talk on this thread and others about doubling up units between Nottingham and Liverpool. However, although I agree that the Nottingham to Norwich section is not quite as busy, it can get fairly overcrowded even in the middle of the day and at weekends, especially between Nottingham and Peterborough.

Although running 4 cars from Liverpool to Nottingham and then the train continuing as a single 2 car unit beyond Nottingham is a good idea, surely 3 car trains over the whole route would be a better thing to aim for. I know it wouldn't be an easy thing to achieve and would mean a complete reforming of EMT's 158's. But it should be considered for the future if by any cascading of stock they ever get any additional 158's. I know it's unlikely.

I agree that there are a few stops that could be ommited from the route (especially Widnes!), and much has been done already by missing out Dronfield and Langley Mill. It has speeded up journey times between Sheffield and Nottingham but has it really cut Norwich-Liverpool timings? Missing out more stops would not necessarily speed up the service by much because of pathing through major rail junctions and crossing main lines. Leaving out additional peak time stops such as Dore, Bingham etc would be good, but to miss out Alfreton would probably just mean that the trains have longer station stops in places like Nottingham and Sheffield. Alfreton is actually quite a busy station, only a few minutes from the M1 with plenty of parking. It serves a wide area including many sizable local towns and many people who use the station do travel beyond both Sheffield and Nottingham.

 

[90019]

though the lower speed of the 320s (75mph according to Wikipedia) could cause a problem.

This is the reason for them being cascaded with the opening of the Airdrie-Bathgate link, as the max linespeed will be 90mph. They're being cascaded onto the Cathcart Circle Lines, replacing the 314s.

The thing with the 314s, is that by the time they're being replaced, they're going to be going on 35 years old, however, anything could happen, I suppose.

 

[AlexS]

EMT staff operate them. If you mean who supplies them, then it's Rail Gourmet.
And it's who, not whom.

Actually EMT have started taking on agency staff to work as Customer Hosts in the buffets and first class in addition to their own employees - I think it's Innovation or similar. A colleague at the GCR has just stopped being a lorry driver and started working for them.

 

[Donny Dave]

I agree that there are a few stops that could be ommited from the route (especially Widnes!), and much has been done already by missing out Dronfield and Langley Mill. It has speeded up journey times between Sheffield and Nottingham but has it really cut Norwich-Liverpool timings? Missing out more stops would not necessarily speed up the service by much because of pathing through major rail junctions and crossing main lines. Leaving out additional peak time stops such as Dore, Bingham etc would be good, but to miss out Alfreton would probably just mean that the trains have longer station stops in places like Nottingham and Sheffield. Alfreton is actually quite a busy station, only a few minutes from the M1 with plenty of parking. It serves a wide area including many sizable local towns and many people who use the station do travel beyond both Sheffield and Nottingham.

Heading to Liverpool, unless the service has been retimed a few minutes later from Norwich (I think there is a little bit of leeway on the ECML currently for paths to be altered slighty), then there is no overall reduction in the journey time. The simple reason is the Northern Sheffield - Manchester service.

This leaves Sheffield at xx:14 (not every hour though), and the EMT service is only about 4 or 5 minutes behind it at Chinley. The local service can't leave any earlier, as a TPE service leaves Sheffield at xx:11.

For any services to re-timed over the Hope Valley requires a complete recasting of several operators timetables. Another factor is platform availability at Sheffield. xx:30 to xx:45 is really the only times that the Norwich - Liverpool services can stand at Sheffield so they can reverse.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

What Northbound EMT Megatrains are Operated by HST's? Planning a Dirt Cheap Manchester-Sheffield Via London Trip Soon. Pendo Down to London Emt-Sheffield and Return.

 

[WillPS]

What Northbound EMT Megatrains are Operated by HST's? Planning a Dirt Cheap Manchester-Sheffield Via London Trip Soon. Pendo Down to London Emt-Sheffield and Return.

Sheffield are now served almost entirely by Meridians (and Pioneers soon, probably). The only HSTs through Sheffield are the EMT ones to Leeds (which I'm not sure would have any megatrain allocation) and the CrossCountry services.

 

[EM2]

Actually EMT have started taking on agency staff to work as Customer Hosts in the buffets and first class in addition to their own employees - I think it's Innovation or similar. A colleague at the GCR has just stopped being a lorry driver and started working for them.

Point taken. They are also using agency staff at St. P as Information Assistants.
But it hasn't been contracted out, was what I meant.

 

[Kneedown]

Personally, I feel a 158 style train is perfect for the route. Yes, they are getting old, but they suit a long(ish) distance route with that pattern of stops. It's certainly not a Class 1 service at the moment (not "Intercity" by normal definitions).

Fair enough, if you're going to speed it up by omitting places like Widnes and Alfreton that have a "local" Northern Rail service, then an upgrade to a 185/ Voyager style unit starts to make more sense, but for the service at the moment a 158 is just right - it's a shame they aren't long enough though - could do with a four car one on the route north of Nottingham certainly.

Sorry chap, but we'll have to disagree on that one.
All Liverpool - Norwich services have a class 1 headcode.
As i said and it's a fact, 158's are underpowered for this route. Most of the time is spent struggling up towards the max permissable speed, and the chances are you'll have to brake for somewhere by the time you do get up to it. The only part of the route where this isn't really a problem is east of Grantham.
And as i previously said, the cab is way too small and claustrophobic for a six run. Thats if you're lucky enough to get one that doesn't leak, let draughts in through the gangway door, or have rattlin windows!
90mph may be fine and dandy for the Liverpool bit, but not for the run from Grantham to Peterboro where a little bit more is required. The slow lines are not always available, and EMT are commited to running the service via Grantham, rather than via Oakham which would put an extra 20mins on the journey anyway.
For a 158 to be suitable for this route it would need two units modified into one permanently coupled four car set, with considerably beefed up power output, perhaps double that currently available, new full width cabs with no gangway doors, and the top speed uprating to a minimum of 100mph, preferably 110............... Be cheaper to put them on the Skeggy's and bring in Meridians/Pioneers/Adelantes instead!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Actually EMT have started taking on agency staff to work as Customer Hosts in the buffets and first class in addition to their own employees

There have always been agency staff since long ago in Midland Mainline days.

 

[John_158]

Actually EMT have started taking on agency staff to work as Customer Hosts in the buffets and first class in addition to their own employees - I think it's Innovation or similar. A colleague at the GCR has just stopped being a lorry driver and started working for them.

Do you know the name of the agency please ?

 

[flymo]

Ooooohhhh I think he wants a job with EMT in the buffet.

 

[tbtc]

Sorry chap, but we'll have to disagree on that one

Thanks for the concise explanation, appreciate you taking the time to type it out

 

[WillPS]

There's some maintenance on the Nottingham - Kirkby-in-Ashfield section of the Robin Hood Line mid-March on a Sunday. Does this mean there will be a train service between Worksop and Kirkby-in-Ashfield?

 

[Kneedown]

Thanks for the concise explanation, appreciate you taking the time to type it out

You're very welcome Sir

 

[martyn29]

43089 (valenta!) is with 43072 today, currently on the 0826 Kettering to London service.

 

[richa2002]

Is it TGS end?

 

[eastmidschris]

There's some maintenance on the Nottingham - Kirkby-in-Ashfield section of the Robin Hood Line mid-March on a Sunday. Does this mean there will be a train service between Worksop and Kirkby-in-Ashfield?

It depends. If the work is between Nottingham and Kirkby South Jcn then the Worksop and Mansfield trains can divert via Langley Mill and Pinxton. If it goes right up to Kirkby station then I can't see any trains running as there isn't any way of getting the units onto the section. EMT traincrew don't sign Sheffield - Worksop or Worksop - Lincoln direct and there isn't anywhere to stable units overnight up there.

 

[1D53]

43089 (valenta!) is with 43072 today, currently on the 0826 Kettering to London service.

Saw it on back of 2027 Sheff - Leicester screaming like a good one!

 

[John_158]

Hi Folks

I done a couple of trips in and out of Derby on Saturday just gone and noticed one and a half of EMTs ex TPE 158s in the Network Rail Depot* I did not see what number the complete one was but the half was 158774 so does anyone know what they would be doing there.

I was thinking though that if the other carriage of 158774 was at Nottingham/East Croft Depot and in running order then there would be no reason why it could not be put on to another ex TPE unit to make three a three car unit at least until the other half is repaired I also saw a half of a 156 in EMTs Derby depot so the same could be done with this one,

Ie...3 car 156

Also does anyone know which TOC 153311 was inherited from as the seat covers are the same as in the 156s except the squares are yellow and it has red and grey Formica side interior panels I also noticed that the seats are somewhat lower than the chap man seats fitted to other units again does anyone have any idea why this may be.

 

[FusionRail]

I would like to see you try and do a better job with a rolling stock shortage.

Please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, shut up. EMT are doing the best they can with what they've got. You should be thankful you have a rail service that you are able to use.
Honestly, what do you think whining to people on a rail forum is going to achieve? Honestly, i want to know what you seem to think will happen.
If you want EMT to know what you think, whine at EMT, rather than just p*ssing off people who have nothing at all to do with them and have no influence over what happens.

Finally someone has some common sense!

 

[Failed Unit]

Hi Folks

I done a couple of trips in and out of Derby on Saturday just gone and noticed one and a half of EMTs ex TPE 158s in the Network Rail Depot* I did not see what number the complete one was but the half was 158774 so does anyone know what they would be doing there.

I was thinking though that if the other carriage of 158774 was at Nottingham/East Croft Depot and in running order then there would be no reason why it could not be put on to another ex TPE unit to make three a three car unit at least until the other half is repaired I also saw a half of a 156 in EMTs Derby depot so the same could be done with this one,

Ie...3 car 156

Or more likely you will see a hybrid 156 / 158 combo running around, CT did that before. (I am sure I have heard rumours there is a hybrid running around at the moment). CT also did a 153/158 combo and also a 153/156 combo.

Also does anyone know which TOC 153311 was inherited from as the seat covers are the same as in the 156s except the squares are yellow and it has red and grey Formica side interior panels I also noticed that the seats are somewhat lower than the chap man seats fitted to other units again does anyone have any idea why this may be.

For some reason Anglia springs to mind but if it was it would have the extra cycle space....

 

[John_158]

Or more likely you will see a hybrid 156 / 158 combo running around, CT did that before. (I am sure I have heard rumours there is a hybrid running around at the moment). CT also did a 153/158 combo and also a 153/156 combo.


For some reason Anglia springs to mind but if it was it would have the extra cycle space....

Yes it did have the extra cycle space, "Ooops i forgot to mention that" !

My 1994 fleet book says it was based at Norwich Crown Point Depot for Regional Railwys Central would this have been Anglia ?

I must admit its a bit of a Shed compared to its ex North West Sister 153310 !

 

[mawallace]

Or more likely you will see a hybrid 156 / 158 combo running around, CT did that before. (I am sure I have heard rumours there is a hybrid running around at the moment). CT also did a 153/158 combo and also a 153/156 combo.


For some reason Anglia springs to mind but if it was it would have the extra cycle space....

153311 was on tempoary loan the other year and therefore did not have the cycle space.

I remember that they only diagrammed it "when pushed" as it was an unrelaible unit - and due to the cycle space issue.

A link to the couple of pics I ook while it was down here

http://www.markwallace.fotopic.net/p43347706.html

http://www.markwallace.fotopic.net/p43347705.html

 

[Mojo]

All Liverpool - Norwich services have a class 1 headcode.

Yes, but what exactly does a Class 1 headcode signify these days and to what extent has it changed since the system was concieved?

Birmingham to Leicester trains are Class 1, take less than an hour from start to end and make 5 or 6 stops en-route. What about trains from Marylebone? Some of the limited-stop services on the Aylesbury line as well as certain trains which call at stations such as Wembley Stadium are also designated as Class 1. Hardly trains which I'd call express or anything similar.