New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[infobleep]

I know it has been looked at in the past but I would not be surprised that when the class 450's are due a full overhaul (top and bottom) the next franchise holder could make them 2+2 with more standing room to help with station dwell times.

I also wouldnt be surprised a certian bidder looking at a large order for 707 10 cars to replace the 455/456 by the end of the franchise. With the DFT target for dwell times on the Suburban routes the 707 meets those requirements.

With the plan for the Reading and Windsor being every 15 minutes more trains instead of shorterrors trains is likely.

The 455 doors open much more quickly than the 450s.

Perhaps they could make the 455s 2 seaters, thus increasing the number of seats; make them 12 cars if possible or 10 if not and run them on the Portsmouth line. That would help reduce dwell times. If 2+2 isn't enough make them 3+2 if train space permits.

They could then get some 707s for the Suburban lines. The Portsmouth line commuters don't like 450s, so these would be a change for them.

 

[pompeyfan]

To be fair it's a tricky one, a 12 car 444 (if 20m body length) would still provide a significant less amount of seat than a 12 450. If the paths were available then I think run extra trains calling only at WAT, SUR, WOK, GLD, this would take the pressure off the rest of the line and comfortably allow 10 car 444s (or next generation version) to serve HSL, PTR and so on.

 

[HowardGWR]

No journey involving a distance of more than 100 kms (65 miles) or for a time exceeding 1 hour, should ever have 3 plus two seating. I don't really think it should ever be used, on social and health grounds. I have actually experienced the reality as disgusting, in terms of human dignity and comfort. I would rather stand.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No journey involving a distance of more than 100 kms (65 miles) or for a time exceeding 1 hour, should ever have 3 plus two seating. I don't really think it should ever be used, on social and health grounds. I have actually experienced the reality as disgusting, in terms of human dignity and comfort. I would rather stand.

No journey at all should have it. If passenger loadings are high, narrow 2+2 or even longitudinal with plenty of standing space is preferable.

I think it's had its day to be honest, when was the last stock introduced with it? The 350/2s?

 

[TEW]

In December 2015 a single service early on in the morning peak (0641 Woking-Waterloo) was swapped from a 12-car 450 to a 10-car 458, so 3+2 to 2+2 seating. There were a huge number of complaints, not just about the reduction in length but the low density seating layout optimised more for standing. I think there is still a market for 3+2 seating for relatively short journeys where people would rather have a seat, even if it's not the most comfortable, rather than stand. The people of Portsmouth despise 3+2 seating because it's not comfortable for that length of journey, but the people of Guildford and Woking prefer the greater chance of getting a seat with 3+2 seating. Those sort of 30-40 minute journeys are where it's too long for most people to want to stand, but not too long that 3+2 seating is unbearable. It's a very difficult balance as at present there just aren't any spare paths to run extra trains. The fast line from Surbiton to Waterloo in the peak is often quoted as being the most intensively used in the country. Already the peak timetable is so fragile because the lines are used near to capacity that one small incident leads to delays for the whole peak. Peak right time performance on SWT is appalling, especially if you take the few minutes padding on the Waterloo arrival time in to account. Improving it won't be at all easy though.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I see the SWT / Stagecoach Fanclub is out in force. As a suburban computer on their services since the first franchise I certainly don't share these views. SWT is mediocre at best. At worst unreliable, filthy trains and unprofessional staff.

Having said all that, better the devil you know and it's probably for the best that Stagecoach retains the franchise, if only because the alternative would probably be even worse.

Those who blindly assume that SWT wouldn't go DOO may be in for a shock though... If DOO does happen I do have confidence that Stagecoach will handle it a lot more effectively than the lamentable GTR though.

SWT do a hell of a lot better than GTR and SouthEastern.

Mediocre at best? Filthy unreliable trains? SWT have some of the most reliable trains in the industry (with the possible exception of the 458s - although that is improving) and a complex network. Compared to many other TOCs their trains are clean and well presented (although any commuter train will get dirty very quickly).

And yes I use SWT regularly. They aren't perfect. When things go belly up, it tends to be in the most spectacular fashion, but that unfortunately is down to how intensive the service is in the peaks and is mainly down to infrastructure problems (NR) or someone hit by a train.

The staff I find are on the whole professional and courteous, although there are exceptions. Again, compare the gateline staff at Waterloo and Victoria and I know who I'd rather be dealing with!

There are better TOCs out there. Chiltern for example are up there with the best, but SWT are far from mediocre.

 

[bb21]

Chiltern have a far simpler operation and are much easier to manage. It is impossible to compare the two companies due to vastly differing profiles. My personal experience of Chiltern is highly mixed, with some down right nasty staff amongst a majority of excellent ones, pretty much like any other TOC in that respect.

Some of Chiltern's senior management are quite bitchy, and not in a good way. Having had the misfortune of mixing with them in a conference last year, I have no desire to be in the same room with some of them ever again.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Long term would the Waterloo-Portsmouth route benefit from having 12 car fixed formation trains (would the demand be there to justify it)?

 

[Goldfish62]

Why do you find Swt staff unprofessional?

There are examples which when I've relayed them to m railway industry friends they've been surprised. I'm not going to list the various examples on here, but it's mainly non commercial guard who seem wanting.

 

[Goldfish62]

SWT do a hell of a lot better than GTR and SouthEastern.

Mediocre at best? Filthy unreliable trains? SWT have some of the most reliable trains in the industry (with the possible exception of the 458s - although that is improving) and a complex network. Compared to many other TOCs their trains are clean and well presented (although any commuter train will get dirty very quickly).

And yes I use SWT regularly. They aren't perfect. When things go belly up, it tends to be in the most spectacular fashion, but that unfortunately is down to how intensive the service is in the peaks and is mainly down to infrastructure problems (NR) or someone hit by a train.

The staff I find are on the whole professional and courteous, although there are exceptions. Again, compare the gateline staff at Waterloo and Victoria and I know who I'd rather be dealing with!

There are better TOCs out there. Chiltern for example are up there with the best, but SWT are far from mediocre.

I agree with some of what you say, but certainly not on cleanliness. The trains are the dirtiest I travel on anywhere, which is hardly surprising given that they are only cleaned once every 210 days.

 

[Goldfish62]

Very rarely am I late to work (including having to change trains) and when I am it is more often than not it is due to someone being killed.

I don't remember the last time a train was shot formed, but it does happen on occasion.

My biggest bugbear is the choice of trains they choose to cancel during disruption in the evening, as they will often cancel the Basingstoke stoppers meaning that it is impossible (or at least very difficult) to get from Woking to Farnborough. Yet the majority of those going to Farnborough and stations west towards Basingstoke are OK as they can still get the on the trains that run fast out of Waterloo to Farnborough before calling at all stations to Basingstoke.

There are improvements that would be very good if they were to happen, but over all they do OK.

You're obviously very lucky re punctuality. SWT is right on the line for having to give season ticket discounts under the charter for suburban services and is using void days to their performance above this line. I got 15 void days when I renewed recently.

 

[The Ham]

Long term would the Waterloo-Portsmouth route benefit from having 12 car fixed formation trains (would the demand be there to justify it)?

Off peak these services can often be four coach trains, so it is unlikely that it would be on all services, but having said that I could see that it could be a good idea as there could be shorter trains used during the queiter times of day for some services.

 

[pompeyfan]

The 450s and 444s are difficult to keep clean on a regular basis, too many nooks, crannys and narrow gaps that allow detritus to get caught in, but get missed during terminus or evening cleans. Tight turnarounds during the peak mean that train presentation don't get the opportunity to run through, and the bins are either too small or poorly designed as it doesn't take much for them to overflow. Other then throwing money at either extra staffing or redesigning things it's a tricky one to solve. Reading through twitter it would appear customer services are well behind schedule too, perhaps they could do with investment?

Finally, and I'm well aware this is pie in the sky, what's the patching capacity like across reading and into Paddington? One would assume it's much like Waterloo where there physically isn't any paths? The only reason I ask is would it ever be cleared in a month of Sunday's to run SWT WoE services into PAD to free up a couple of paths to allow these much needed extra WOK/GLD services?

 

[hwl]

The 450s and 444s are difficult to keep clean on a regular basis, too many nooks, crannys and narrow gaps that allow detritus to get caught in, but get missed during terminus or evening cleans. Tight turnarounds during the peak mean that train presentation don't get the opportunity to run through, and the bins are either too small or poorly designed as it doesn't take much for them to overflow. Other then throwing money at either extra staffing or redesigning things it's a tricky one to solve. Reading through twitter it would appear customer services are well behind schedule too, perhaps they could do with investment?

Finally, and I'm well aware this is pie in the sky, what's the patching capacity like across reading and into Paddington? One would assume it's much like Waterloo where there physically isn't any paths? The only reason I ask is would it ever be cleared in a month of Sunday's to run SWT WoE services into PAD to free up a couple of paths to allow these much needed extra WOK/GLD services?

707 have fewer nooks and crannys etc. so be careful what you wish for!
The lack of floor seat supports on Desiro City units helps certainly with the cleaning.

Paths into Paddington Extra capacity from new signalling already allocated for more GW services.

 

[hwl]

Long term would the Waterloo-Portsmouth route benefit from having 12 car fixed formation trains (would the demand be there to justify it)?

That would save 4 drivers cabs (at several hundred £k per cab too) and 2 Guard compartments -vs- a 3x450 so possibly worth the extra space and seats for peaks. Possibly overkill for the weekends unless you add a few more stops but then again doing the maintenance just at weekends might make sense for a limited for number of units overall.

 

[43096]

That would save 4 drivers cabs (at several hundred £k per cab too) and 2 Guard compartments -vs- a 3x450 so possibly worth the extra space and seats for peaks. Possibly overkill for the weekends unless you add a few more stops but then again doing the maintenance just at weekends might make sense for a limited for number of units overall.

And then when a fixed 12-car whacks a tree and needs cab repairs you lose a whole 12-car set not just 4 cars. You're then into service cancellations rather than short forms whilst the set is repaired. There was a reason why the Southern was largely based on multiples of 4 cars.

 

[pompeyfan]

707 have fewer nooks and crannys etc. so be careful what you wish for!
The lack of floor seat supports on Desiro City units helps certainly with the cleaning.

Paths into Paddington Extra capacity from new signalling already allocated for more GW services.

I had heard through Chinese whispers that the profile of the 707 would cause issues in Buriton Tunnel which I assume is a load of tosh.

I had assumed that any capacity on the GW would go towards the GW, but stranger things have happened.

 

[Monty]

The 450s and 444s are difficult to keep clean on a regular basis, too many nooks, crannys and narrow gaps that allow detritus to get caught in, but get missed during terminus or evening cleans. Tight turnarounds during the peak mean that train presentation don't get the opportunity to run through, and the bins are either too small or poorly designed as it doesn't take much for them to overflow. Other then throwing money at either extra staffing or redesigning things it's a tricky one to solve. Reading through twitter it would appear customer services are well behind schedule too, perhaps they could do with investment?

Finally, and I'm well aware this is pie in the sky, what's the patching capacity like across reading and into Paddington? One would assume it's much like Waterloo where there physically isn't any paths? The only reason I ask is would it ever be cleared in a month of Sunday's to run SWT WoE services into PAD to free up a couple of paths to allow these much needed extra WOK/GLD services?

If there was excess capacity you are more likely to see GW services from Paddington to Southampton as suggested in the last RUS.

 

[Monty]

I had heard through Chinese whispers that the profile of the 707 would cause issues in Buriton Tunnel which I assume is a load of tosh.

I had assumed that any capacity on the GW would go towards the GW, but stranger things have happened.

It is Tosh.

 

[Matt Taylor]

The 450s and 444s are difficult to keep clean on a regular basis, too many nooks, crannys and narrow gaps that allow detritus to get caught in, but get missed during terminus or evening cleans. Tight turnarounds during the peak mean that train presentation don't get the opportunity to run through, and the bins are either too small or poorly designed as it doesn't take much for them to overflow. Other then throwing money at either extra staffing or redesigning things it's a tricky one to solve. Reading through twitter it would appear customer services are well behind schedule too, perhaps they could do with investment?

I have already put forward the suggestion of having a cleaner based at Haslemere through the day to clean the 2Pxx trains.

 

[backontrack]

I wouldn't be surprised if the winning bid places more stock on their long-distance routes, as the commuter services seem quite likely to become part of Overground.

 

[Monty]

I wouldn't be surprised if the winning bid places more stock on their long-distance routes, as the commuter services seem quite likely to become part of Overground.

That's been knocked on the head for now at least.

 

[pompeyfan]

I have already put forward the suggestion of having a cleaner based at Haslemere through the day to clean the 2Pxx trains.

It would be a good start, but short of a litter pick and empty the bins, their scope would be a bit narrow.

 

[infobleep]

In December 2015 a single service early on in the morning peak (0641 Woking-Waterloo) was swapped from a 12-car 450 to a 10-car 458, so 3+2 to 2+2 seating. There were a huge number of complaints, not just about the reduction in length but the low density seating layout optimised more for standing. I think there is still a market for 3+2 seating for relatively short journeys where people would rather have a seat, even if it's not the most comfortable, rather than stand. The people of Portsmouth despise 3+2 seating because it's not comfortable for that length of journey, but the people of Guildford and Woking prefer the greater chance of getting a seat with 3+2 seating. Those sort of 30-40 minute journeys are where it's too long for most people to want to stand, but not too long that 3+2 seating is unbearable. It's a very difficult balance as at present there just aren't any spare paths to run extra trains. The fast line from Surbiton to Waterloo in the peak is often quoted as being the most intensively used in the country. Already the peak timetable is so fragile because the lines are used near to capacity that one small incident leads to delays for the whole peak. Peak right time performance on SWT is appalling, especially if you take the few minutes padding on the Waterloo arrival time in to account. Improving it won't be at all easy though.

On the main line at least I don't see how they can improve it, without costly infrastructure improvements and an extra track. Until that happens not much can be done. Well as a layman that is how I see it.

 

[3141]

On the main line at least I don't see how they can improve it, without costly infrastructure improvements and an extra track. Until that happens not much can be done. Well as a layman that is how I see it.

In an email to a local councillor about two years ago, Tim Shoveller said that's how he saw it too - it wasn't possible to make much improvement to the main line until the local services and been improved.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

And then when a fixed 12-car whacks a tree and needs cab repairs you lose a whole 12-car set not just 4 cars. You're then into service cancellations rather than short forms whilst the set is repaired. There was a reason why the Southern was largely based on multiples of 4 cars.

If that were a concern for TOCs then why would GTR have ordered fixed formation 12 cars for their TL services?

 

[hwl]

If that were a concern for TOCs then why would GTR have ordered fixed formation 12 cars for their TL services?

Ordered by DfT also reduces number of toilets including disabled ones and eliminates unit coupling issues (Some what eliminated by SWT running 2x4car all day in lots of places too!)

 

[D365]

Ordered by DfT also reduces number of toilets including disabled ones and eliminates unit coupling issues (Some what eliminated by SWT running 2x4car all day in lots of places too!)

Fixed-formation units are vital on Thameslink and Moorgate lines to ensure maximum crush-load capability.

 

[HH]

Fixed-formation units are vital on Thameslink and Moorgate lines to ensure maximum crush-load capability.

And yet, most people I speak to think that the extra cost (as opposed to going a mix of 8- and 4-car units) is simply not worth it. Plus, even the DfT admit that they ordered too many 12-cars.

 

[hwl]

And yet, most people I speak to think that the extra cost (as opposed to going a mix of 8- and 4-car units) is simply not worth it. Plus, even the DfT admit that they ordered too many 12-cars.

But not enough to run all the 12car routes at 12car in peak