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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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NSEFAN

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bramling said:
I think a lot of the problem is disproportionately many MPs are thought to be in favour of the EU, in many cases at odds with the majority of their constituents. In some cases the reverse is also true. Perhaps this is partly why it took so long for a referendum to occur.

If people trusted MPs to reflect the will of the majority then I think people would be much more trusting of parliament to deliver something satisfactory.
Is the job of MPs to do exactly what their consituents want? Or to represent the best interests of those constituents? I can believe that these may be at odds with each other, given the MPs are (supposed to be) informed of the political issues but the man on the street may well not be.

A strong distrust of MPs is something we seem to love in this country. We aren't happy unless they're all a bunch of slimy, scumbags. In some ways if we expect (and secretly crave) bad leadership then we will end up facilitating these kinds of situations. Perhaps that's the will of the people in action, right there! :lol:
 
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dosxuk

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If people trusted MPs to reflect the will of the majority then I think people would be much more trusting of parliament to deliver something satisfactory.

I suspect that there is a similar level of difference between MPs and their constituents on the idea of making all taxes optional (except for those who can afford it). MPs are not there just to vote in proxy for their constituents, but to weigh up the greater impact, and how it will affect our entire society, not just individuals. There's lots of things in our daily lives that individually is bad, but without them society would collapse, so we have to put up them.

The unfortunate thing in this whole debacle is that those people, who had pretty much all been convinced of the benefits of EU membership, completely failed to explain those benefits in a way that individuals could understand how it was good for them.
 
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Domh245

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I don't think that's really true on the remain side. Almost noone was campaigning for further integration (what you describe as a hard remain) so it's fairly obvious that the only thing seriously on the cards on the Remain side was broadly keeping the status quo on Europe. The uncertainty was almost entirely on the Leave side, with two very different versions of Leave on offer.

I would suggest that there is a very strong case for saying that that was another flaw in the referendum: There were really three choices on offer: Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit and Remain. (And if you wanted, I guess you could've add Hard Remain as a 4th choice, but I think it's fairly obvious that very few people would've voted for that). The fact that two of those choices were merged in the ballot into just one option was arguably rather silly and has allowed too many politicians to pretend there's a mandate for hard Brexit when there isn't - because that wasn't what was asked.

Campaigning for further integration would have been wrong, because a vote to remain was a vote to go forward with the concessions that Cameron had managed to get from the EU, agree with the rest of your post, although I think that there was more than just 2 variations of leave!
 

Senex

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MPs are not there just to vote in proxy for their constituents, but to weigh up the greater impact, and how it will affect our entire society, not just individuals. There's lots of things in our daily lives that individually is bad, but without them society would collapse, so we have to put up them.

But there's an enormous (and unbridgeable?) gap between the theory and the practice of the British system.
 

EM2

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From George Eaton, political editor of the New Statesman:
Significant: David Davis has just said that the government would consider EU budget contributions in return for single market access.

And from the BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38168942
During his regular session facing MPs in the Commons, Mr Davis was asked a number of questions about the shape of the future Brexit deal, including one from Labour MP Wayne David, who said: "Will the government consider making any contribution in any shape or form for access to the single market?"
Mr Davis replied: "The major criterion here is that we get the best possible access for goods and services to the European market - and if that is included in what you are talking about, then of course we will consider it."
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Is it not the case that Britain has already promised that the Government will fund any EU regional finance to areas of Britain that will end on the leaving of the EU, so the thought of now paying EU contributions to keep access to the single market makes me wonder what exactly were the financial gains said to accrue from leaving the EU.
 

miami

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Is it not the case that Britain has already promised that the Government will fund any EU regional finance to areas of Britain that will end on the leaving of the EU, so the thought of now paying EU contributions to keep access to the single market makes me wonder what exactly were the financial gains said to accrue from leaving the EU.

You know full well there will only be losses, not gains. This was made clear during the campaign, however the turkeys have voted
 

WelshBluebird

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Is it not the case that Britain has already promised that the Government will fund any EU regional finance to areas of Britain that will end on the leaving of the EU, so the thought of now paying EU contributions to keep access to the single market makes me wonder what exactly were the financial gains said to accrue from leaving the EU.

Of course, this very point was brought up during the whole thing, but was just labelled as "project fear".
 

deltic

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Well the people of Richmond have made their views known on Brexit, a lot of MPs who held a different view than their electorate on remain/leave will be hoping they don't have long memories.
 

anme

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Well the people of Richmond have made their views known on Brexit, a lot of MPs who held a different view than their electorate on remain/leave will be hoping they don't have long memories.

That's only true if you think Brexit is the single most important issue for the average voter. I doubt that's the case. In fact, judging by the kind of leave voter who posts on here, leavers, at least, have no idea whatsoever of what they actually want to happen now, and will think up incredible excuses for why it's OK for them not to hold any opinion.

For the 48% who are remainers, it's easy. We want to stay in the EU. And failing that we want the closest possible thing, i.e. EEA membership with continued freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital.

For the leavers, it's much more complicated. Some want a Trump-style rejection of Thatcher/Reagan style neo-liberalism and presumably a more protectionist, government controlled economy and society (Farage). Some want the exact opposite of that - an extreme form of Thatcher/Reagan-style neo-liberalism (the 80-ish Conservative MPs who signed the letter demanding the UK leaves the single market). And some just want to be nasty to foreigners.

How do we choose between those options? Who should do it? Why does nobody in the UK seem to care? (except for the wonderful voters of Richmond-upon-Thames, of course)
 
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furnessvale

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That's only true if you think Brexit is the single most important issue for the average voter. I doubt that's the case. In fact, judging by the kind of leave voter who posts on here, leavers, at least, have no idea whatsoever of what they actually want to happen now, and will think up incredible excuses for why it's OK for them not to hold any opinion.

For the 48% who are remainers, it's easy. We want to stay in the EU. And failing that we want the closest possible thing, i.e. EEA membership with continued freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital.

For the leavers, it's much more complicated. Some want a Trump-style rejection of Thatcher/Reagan style neo-liberalism and presumably a more protectionist, government controlled economy and society (Farage). Some want an extreme form of Thatcher/Reagan-style neo-liberalism (the 80-ish Conservative MPs who signed the letter demanding the UK leaves the single market). And some just want to be nasty to foreigners.

How do we choose between those options? Who should do it? Why does nobody in the UK seem to care? (except for the wonderful voters of Richmond-upon-Thames, of course)

Covering some of your points in order.

Brexit seems to have been the most important single point to the voters of Richmond. In this case they have returned an MP which reflects how they voted in the referendum.

Easy decision for remainers? Which EU do they all to a man want to remain in? Would that be the EU of today or the much more integrated one in a few years time? We allegedly had a partial opt out (if the EU had honoured its promises, a big if). Leave it long enough and the UK would be so far out of sync with the rest of the EU we may as well be out.

Remainers are just as divided as Brexiters. I have spoken to remainers who want nothing less than a full United States of Europe. I have also spoken to remainers who wanted a lot more than Cameron brought back from the EU, but who voted through gritted teeth to remain, thanks to the Armageddon promised by the remain campaign.
 

anme

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Covering some of your points in order.

Brexit seems to have been the most important single point to the voters of Richmond. In this case they have returned an MP which reflects how they voted in the referendum.

Easy decision for remainers? Which EU do they all to a man want to remain in? Would that be the EU of today or the much more integrated one in a few years time? We allegedly had a partial opt out (if the EU had honoured its promises, a big if). Leave it long enough and the UK would be so far out of sync with the rest of the EU we may as well be out.

Remainers are just as divided as Brexiters. I have spoken to remainers who want nothing less than a full United States of Europe. I have also spoken to remainers who wanted a lot more than Cameron brought back from the EU, but who voted through gritted teeth to remain, thanks to the Armageddon promised by the remain campaign.

That's a bogus argument. If the UK remains in the EU, it will have a chance to shape it.

But more importantly, what do YOU want? There are MASSIVE questions for the UK now. Why is no-one interested in discussing them? Why are you apparently happy to leave these to a prime minister who wasn't elected and more importantly didn't present any kind of plan at a general election or referendum? I find the attitude of the British people right now absolutely staggering.
 
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EM2

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Easy decision for remainers? Which EU do they all to a man want to remain in? Would that be the EU of today or the much more integrated one in a few years time? We allegedly had a partial opt out (if the EU had honoured its promises, a big if). Leave it long enough and the UK would be so far out of sync with the rest of the EU we may as well be out.
There is one EU. That is the one that we are currently members of. There is no evidence of there being a 'much more integrated' EU 'in a few years'. Integrated in what way, anyway?
 

ainsworth74

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More to the point if we had ended up having been forced further down the road of 'ever closer Union' despite our opt outs and attempts at shaping the EU from inside then there was nothing stopping us having a vote to leave the EU at that point in time. I probably would have voted leave in such a referendum!
 

Johnuk123

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Remainers are just as divided as Brexiters. I have spoken to remainers who want nothing less than a full United States of Europe.

I would say the United States of Europe would be the choice of the vast majority of Remainers.
It would be a bit strange to vote Remain and not want to go the distance, you couldn't vote to Remain and expect things to stay as they are, that's not the plan of the EU.
 

AlterEgo

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I would say the United States of Europe would be the choice of the vast majority of Remainers.

I would say this is as fallacious and presumptive as a remainer claiming the vast majority of Brexiteers want to live in the 1950s.
 

Johnuk123

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I would say this is as fallacious and presumptive as a remainer claiming the vast majority of Brexiteers want to live in the 1950s.

But not presumptive to call all Leavers xenophobes, racists and idiots which posters on here have done from day one.
 

EM2

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What do you think "ever closer union means"
This - https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-ever-closer-union/
The Prime Minister’s renegotiation deal on the UK’s European Union membership is a package of changes to EU rules. It was agreed by European leaders on 19 February 2016. In this series of articles, some of the country’s leading experts in EU law explain the deal and what it changes.

In brief: The proposed EU deal would exempt the UK from aspiring to “an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe”. This phrase has a symbolic political impact, but has little or no legal effect. Saying that it no longer applies to the UK doesn’t change anything about how the EU works, or the powers it has.
The phrase “ever closer union” is one of the targets for David Cameron’s renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with the EU.

In his statement to the House of Commons on 3 February, Mr Cameron said:

“we do not want to have our country bound up in an ever closer political union in Europe”.

This links “ever closer union” to progress towards a federal or "super-state” Europe.

But a closer look at the use of this term in EU law undermines that idea.

“Ever closer union” isn’t specifically a call for political union

This expression is of long-standing origin.

It is found in the Preamble to the 1957 treaty that set up what became the EU. On at least six occasions the UK has signed up to it (firstly in becoming a member, and then agreeing to subsequent treaty changes).

So for example, one of the main EU treaties currently refers to:

“the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen”.

Notably, the treaties actually say “ever closer union of the peoples” of Europe, not governments. The phrase does not contain the word “political”, and it uses the word “union” with a small u, less suggestive of a formal drive towards a European super-state.

It’s also important to read the phrase “ever closer union” with the rest of the sentence. This links ever closer union, as the original draft of the EU deal stated, with a desire to “…promote trust and understanding among peoples living in open and democratic societies…”.

The “new settlement” deal also spells out that references to ever closer union don’t give the EU any specific “competences”, or powers.

Likewise, the phrase doesn’t require the EU to expand its powers, nor prevent any power from being removed from the EU.

This is important, as it underlines that the phrase has no actual legal bite, and can’t be a springboard for expansive EU action.

The phrase is therefore symbolic. But this doesn’t mean that it’s unimportant politically.

The EU court hasn’t used the phrase to support federalist judgments

Is "ever closer union" an expression that the EU court can use in support of judgments that expand EU competences, as the government has argued?

The evidence of the case law suggests not. The EU court doesn’t often cite the phrase.

When it does use it, it’s usually as part of the whole phrase, “ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen”, in the context of public access to official documents.

In other words, the phrase is mostly used in decisions about freedom of information requests.

It was notably absent from the court’s landmark judgments, such as the Costa decision, which set out the principle of supremacy of EU law.

The UK has opt-outs despite “ever closer union”

It’s also important that the wording “ever closer union” hasn’t prevented Britain from obtaining a range of opt-outs from EU integration in the past.

And in June 2014, the European leaders formally stated that

“the concept of ever closer union allows for different paths of integration for different countries, allowing those that want to deepen integration to move ahead, while respecting the wish of those who do not want to deepen any further”.

The renegotiation deal repeats this.

Exempting the UK from ever closer union is political rather than legal

As the phrase "ever closer union" is to be found in the EU treaties themselves, amending or deleting it would require every country to agree.

Instead, the UK could be formally exempted from the aspiration to “ever closer union,” which could be confirmed by treaty change down the line.

That’s just what the EU deal does:

“It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom”

What’s actually achieved by this?

Given the fact that the phrase “ever closer union” doesn’t imply a move to a federal EU, and isn’t a legal basis for any increase of EU power, exonerating the UK from a commitment to achieving ever closer union will not change the UK’s relationship with the EU.

Update 22 February 2016

We revised the article to take into account the final version of the EU deal published on 19 February, rather than the draft of 2 February as in the original.

Update 5 March 2016

We added "what became" to the sentence "It is found in the Preamble to the 1957 treaty that set up what became the EU".
 

Johnuk123

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That proves it does it, you must be joking.

This woman's plan is exactly what will happen eventually.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ed-States-of-Europe-says-top-EU-official.html

A campaign for the European Union to become a "United States of Europe" will be the "best weapon against the Eurosceptics", one of Brussels' most senior officials has said.

Viviane Reding, vice president of the European Commission and the longest serving Brussels commissioner, has called for "a true political union" to be put on the agenda for EU elections this spring.

"We need to build a United States of Europe with the Commission as government and two chambers – the European Parliament and a "Senate" of Member States," she said.

Mrs Reding's vision, which is shared by many in the European institutions, would transform the EU into superstate relegating national governments and parliaments to a minor political role equivalent to that played by local councils in Britain.

Under her plan, the commission would have supremacy over governments and MEPs in the European Parliament would supersede the sovereignty of MPs in the House of Commons.

The Italian Prime Minister Renzi said in 2014 that Italy would use its six-month-long presidency of the EU to push for the establishment of a United States of Europe.
The ex-pm of Belgium Guy Verhofstadt has also called for a USE.
 
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Trog

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Why are you apparently happy to leave these to a prime minister who wasn't elected and more importantly didn't present any kind of plan at a general election or referendum? I find the attitude of the British people right now absolutely staggering.


Our Prime Ministers are never elected as such, they don't even have to be MP's. In theory I don't even think they have to be British, although you would probably have to talk fast with that one in practice. The Prime minister is just the person who can command the support of the largest number of MP's.
 

anme

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I would say this is as fallacious and presumptive as a remainer claiming the vast majority of Brexiteers want to live in the 1950s.

What DO you want? Personally, I mean. Please tell us!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Our Prime Ministers are never elected as such, they don't even have to be MP's. In theory I don't even think they have to be British, although you would probably have to talk fast with that one in practice. The Prime minister is just the person who can command the support of the largest number of MP's.

I hope you're not trying to defend a government forcing through their own answers to the most important decisions the UK has taken for many decades without any form of democratic mandate. Because that would be truly staggering for a country that supposedly voted to "take back control". There was nothing at all in the conservative party manifesto about any of this.
 
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EM2

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That proves it does it, you must be joking.

This woman's plan is exactly what will happen eventually.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ed-States-of-Europe-says-top-EU-official.html
So I post a link From this February, where the actual wording of the EU treaties has been examined by a number of EU experts (oops, Leave don't trust experts do they?), and you post a link which is nearly three years old, features one quote from one person, and is published in a Eurosceptic newspaper.
Yet I'm supposed to take that as evidence?
 

Johnuk123

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I suspect you mean that you have no interest in the facts, i.e. what the treaties actually say, and prefer your own interpretation which panders to your own preconceived ideas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias

Like most Remainers you are in denial if you think the EU hasn't always been about full political union.
Saying that by this time next year it may well be on the verge of complete collapse if all the dire predictions about Italy, France, Greece etc. come to fruition.
 

AlterEgo

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But not presumptive to call all Leavers xenophobes, racists and idiots which posters on here have done from day one.

That would have been both presumptive and self-defeating. The louder people shouted "xenophobe" the stronger the Brexit camp became, as they saw this as proof that they were a downtrodden or silenced majority.
 

anme

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So I post a link From this February, where the actual wording of the EU treaties has been examined by a number of EU experts (oops, Leave don't trust experts do they?), and you post a link which is nearly three years old, features one quote from one person, and is published in a Eurosceptic newspaper.
Yet I'm supposed to take that as evidence?

This is a very common technique for the new right, and very very common for Euro-sceptics. Find something once said by someone in Brussels or, failing that, any moderately important European city. Anyone will do - MEPs from very minor parties and even representatives of fringe lobby groups are fine. Use a cleaner if you have to. Take that single quote completely out of context, then present an extreme interpretation of it as the absolute decided policy of all the European institutions and governments. Then get irrationally angry about it.

It's similar to claiming that something once said at a party by George Galloway or Tim Farron is the official policy of the British government.

This is a perfect example. Our friend Johnuk123 is more interested in a dodgy three year old article from a Euro-sceptic newspaper based on a single quote, which happens to reinforce his existing beliefs, than in what the treaties actually say. Now, multiply this way of thinking by a few million...
 
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