Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[FordFocus]

There are already trains that had guards on Horsham that were promised OBS on every train as per the Charles Horton guarantee but within a couple of days of that line going on it's botched DOO program the OBS were not there... It's not even 2021 yet and the staff are going.

 

[Carlisle]

There are already trains that had guards on Horsham that were promised OBS on every train as per the Charles Horton guarantee but within a couple of days of that line going on it's botched DOO program the OBS were not there... It's not even 2021 yet and the staff are going.

Id highly suspect that's far more likely to be down to the operating difficulties in this pretty chaotic transitional period rather than any covert cynical way of getting rid of staff right now :

 

[BestWestern]

Not so , you've conveniently forgotten the 300 or so DBS staff and other TOCs onboard staff facing actual redundancy right now, they still have to go to work daily driving shunting cleaning or servicing trains just like Southern Conductors, none of whom are facing redundancy unless they wish to volunteer for it

DBS Drivers would certainly come very close I'm sure, although there is at least a decent chance of further employment as a qualified Driver for a good number. These men are fortunate enough however not to have been publically smeared by their own lying, deceitful employer, which will be a major factor in how the poor fellows at GTR will likely be feeling.

What other TOCs did you have in mind?
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In fairness on some trains it is easy to sit in first class without realising, I've done it myself before!

It certainly is! Indeed, so slight is the distinction on TOCs like Southern/Thameslink etc, you have to wonder why anybody would pay for it!

On those TOCs who try a bit harder though, for example the intercity operators, it is generally policed and it does make good money.

 

[Matt Taylor]

£50k in takings in the last year is just the tip of the iceberg, you also have to consider the delay penalties I've saved by efficient use of my whistle and proactive train patrols to identify any issues that might cause station delays before they happen. Then there's the potentially serious incident I was able to prevent today by spotting a track fault. It's not just about ticket checks.

My support for my colleagues at Southern is solid but watching the RMT continue to shoot itself in the foot is concerning and frustrating. Targeting the Christmas period for the next batch of strikes is just ridiculous and will further alienate the public from it's stance in this dispute.

 

[Chrisgr31]

My support for my colleagues at Southern is solid but watching the RMT continue to shoot itself in the foot is concerning and frustrating. Targeting the Christmas period for the next batch of strikes is just ridiculous and will further alienate the public from it's stance in this dispute.

Whilst it might be targeting the public the long suffering commuter who has had to put up with an awful service over the last 12 months whilst paying large sums for the privilege will only be affected by 2 out of the 6 strike days announced today.

There is nearly 2 months notice of the strikes so people have plenty of time to make alternative arrangements.
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I notice on Twitter a passenger was complaining to Southern that they often travel from London Road to Falmer and presumably return. They have often not bought a ticket at London Road due to queues or whatever, and jumped on train, and at other end been allowed through barriers to go to ticket office to buy a ticket. However today they were stopped at the barrier and given a penalty fare.

They were fairly grumpy basically saying they had never been told before that they should get the ticket before travelling.

When the OBS role was first mentioned I recall it was said that they would not be selling discounted tickets.

I am not sure whether it was an OBS that stopped this passenger but whilst Southern might be a penalty fare area the reality it has not been enforced. Its always been possible to buy a ticket from the guard without question.

I think the passengers are in for a nasty surprise when they find a greater enforcement of ticketing rules and it appears it may be coming with no warning.

 

[Robertj21a]

Whilst it might be targeting the public the long suffering commuter who has had to put up with an awful service over the last 12 months whilst paying large sums for the privilege will only be affected by 2 out of the 6 strike days announced today.

There is nearly 2 months notice of the strikes so people have plenty of time to make alternative arrangements.
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I notice on Twitter a passenger was complaining to Southern that they often travel from London Road to Falmer and presumably return. They have often not bought a ticket at London Road due to queues or whatever, and jumped on train, and at other end been allowed through barriers to go to ticket office to buy a ticket. However today they were stopped at the barrier and given a penalty fare.

They were fairly grumpy basically saying they had never been told before that they should get the ticket before travelling.

When the OBS role was first mentioned I recall it was said that they would not be selling discounted tickets.

I am not sure whether it was an OBS that stopped this passenger but whilst Southern might be a penalty fare area the reality it has not been enforced. Its always been possible to buy a ticket from the guard without question.

I think the passengers are in for a nasty surprise when they find a greater enforcement of ticketing rules and it appears it may be coming with no warning.

Presumably, he should simply get to London Road sooner and buy his ticket.

 

[Antman]

Whilst it might be targeting the public the long suffering commuter who has had to put up with an awful service over the last 12 months whilst paying large sums for the privilege will only be affected by 2 out of the 6 strike days announced today.

There is nearly 2 months notice of the strikes so people have plenty of time to make alternative arrangements.
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I notice on Twitter a passenger was complaining to Southern that they often travel from London Road to Falmer and presumably return. They have often not bought a ticket at London Road due to queues or whatever, and jumped on train, and at other end been allowed through barriers to go to ticket office to buy a ticket. However today they were stopped at the barrier and given a penalty fare.

They were fairly grumpy basically saying they had never been told before that they should get the ticket before travelling.

When the OBS role was first mentioned I recall it was said that they would not be selling discounted tickets.

I am not sure whether it was an OBS that stopped this passenger but whilst Southern might be a penalty fare area the reality it has not been enforced. Its always been possible to buy a ticket from the guard without question.

I think the passengers are in for a nasty surprise when they find a greater enforcement of ticketing rules and it appears it may be coming with no warning.

Or maybe they just walked out of Falmer without buying a ticket? I've never seen any great queues at London Road.

 

[infobleep]

I disagree with this. If I spent £x on a season ticket, I want value for money. Removing someone who is safety critical (useful in an emergency) and is based on the train to offer customer service isn't value for money in my opinion.

South West Trains seem to run a good service using guards. Southern should take a leaf out of their book and actually recruit some, enough not to rely on overtime and have some form of cover available.

Couldn't agree more with you there. Not that anyone with powers cares for our views.

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If your phone is powered on the emergency services can quickly locate you pretty accurately if required ... especially if they know you are on a railway line.

Even if you have no reception?

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If this means 'privatisation', why would anyone put money into the concept given the financial sink that it is? There would be no commercial return on investment, even if the present huge debt were to be expunged.
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Well, I hope they are more accurate than your posts!

I have software on my computer that can read text I type back to me. Really good. Sadly I've not found anything on Android that does that, so it relies on me doing it.

But that's fine because I'm good at spotting all my mistakes!


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Some of them are now, including services to and from Reigate, some of the early morning and late evening coastal services, and Tonbridge line services on the section of route between Redhill and London (except with Southeastern drivers, who are not permitted to drive Southern 377s under DOO(P) under any circumstances). An OBS or conductor should be onboard but may be present only for selected parts of it. And for some of said selected parts of journeys, that may be less time than it takes to walk through the whole train and get back to their locker! Checking tickets takes much longer than that, too.

If trains to Reigate are DOO like you say and I don't doubt you, why are no Southern services running to Reigate today?

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Southern have gone back to playing hardball.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/busines...g-holiday-pay-from-striking-workers-1-7660735

Is that legal what they are doing? Any lawyers on here care to give a general opinion?


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Indeed but as a passenger and not having access to either cab, this would not be an option to me

Well they need to give you access to the cabs! Problem solved!

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[Deepgreen]

£50k in takings in the last year is just the tip of the iceberg, you also have to consider the delay penalties I've saved by efficient use of my whistle and proactive train patrols to identify any issues that might cause station delays before they happen. Then there's the potentially serious incident I was able to prevent today by spotting a track fault. It's not just about ticket checks.

My support for my colleagues at Southern is solid but watching the RMT continue to shoot itself in the foot is concerning and frustrating. Targeting the Christmas period for the next batch of strikes is just ridiculous and will further alienate the public from it's stance in this dispute.

Exactly so - I was looking at the revenues element of the guards' value in isolation because someone had posted that the guards are worth their costs in revenue terms alone. My point was that, if my observations are anything to go by, revenue collection by guards has declined hugely.

HOWEVER, your point about the wider value of guards is completely right, which is why I support their retention. I also agree with your point about the RMT being pretty self-destructive by not explaining the case clearly and properly, especially the point about why so many trains are DOO already but that any more cannot be countenanced, which is the hardest thing for passengers to understand.

I also think that those guards who have chosen to become hermits during this dispute are doing the profession no good at all, and are probably worsening the public's perception of them greatly, thereby further weakening their case.

 

[wfrank]

I can understand the guards hiding like hermits. I am not from Southern territory but when I travelled there on the last strike a guard walked through the coach quickly & after he had gone passengers who did not seem to know one another loudly agreed he was a waste of space. I think their journeys had bee messed up. I felt sorry for the guard because he was either management or one of the forty percent who had decided to go back to work on strike days.

 

[Deepgreen]

I can understand the guards hiding like hermits. I am not from Southern territory but when I travelled there on the last strike a guard walked through the coach quickly & after he had gone passengers who did not seem to know one another loudly agreed he was a waste of space. I think their journeys had bee messed up. I felt sorry for the guard because he was either management or one of the forty percent who had decided to go back to work on strike days.

Morale may be low, but it will worsen further if the argument is lost because so many decide to remain invisible to the people from whom they need support - the passengers. I think the majority of passengers still support the guards in their battle, but that will evaporate if they continue to 'hide' - 'out of sight, out of mind' may be a pertinent expression here.

If 'management' guards or those who are not striking are 'hiding', that certainly sets a very poor example!

 

[BestWestern]

Management 'Guards' are highly unlikely to be doing anything other than hiding and trying very hard not to make complete tits of themselves, assuming they include those who have done a typical 'strikers' course of a few days and have barely any knowledge whatsoever. Or are GTR using only those who know what they're doing?

 

[tsr]

Management 'Guards' are highly unlikely to be doing anything other than hiding and trying very hard not to make complete tits of themselves, assuming they include those who have done a typical 'strikers' course of a few days and have barely any knowledge whatsoever. Or are GTR using only those who know what they're doing?

Some trains have guards on them... others have been DOO(P)+OBS over the last few strike days, whereas previously they were driver+guard (Three Bridges-Victoria via Redhill is the prime example of this).

With regards to the guards, the correct term for what you're thinking of is "contingency guards", as some aren't managers - for example, administrative staff, and a few who work in control centres but aren't required for their core operation. There are a fair few with experience and/or knowledge of the job - there are some who, for example, are conductor managers with the required competencies already, and quite a few of the safety and competency management team who've held conductor licences for ages. Then there are also station management and control staff who have various other safety-critical qualifications (such as dispatch licences) but have also trained as conductors for this. Of course, there are also exceptions to this, and I think there have been one or two tales posted on this forum before...

It should also be noted that one or two depots have a sizeable number of conductors who are not in the RMT and therefore have turned up at work, or have done so in order to be eligible for the voluntary severance/paying-off scheme. Where this is the case, some of these have crewed additional services, especially in the peaks, where the diagrams have effectively been composed from various bits of the "normal" timetable. So if you hear about random extra London Bridge-Horshams, as an example, those will probably be worked by regular conductors.

 

[pompeyfan]

Slightly off topic but going back to the OBS point regarding discounted tickets.

Guard should follow condition 2 of the NRCOC and should only sell anytime singles/returns and should not accept railcards or even issue travelcards. However guards are allowed to use discretion. If TVMs are broken, or ticket offices are unusually busy then discretion can be used. Also, if a passenger approaches a guard, rather than the other way round it's fairly acceptable to sell discounted tickets.

However, a lot of guards do not enforce condition 2 for fear of confrontation, which then makes it more difficult for guards that do enforce it.

 

[Deepgreen]

Having just read an item on the BBC web site about the dispute, I fear Mick Cash has only dug the RMT deeper into the hole they seem to have created for themselves, by almost exclusively seeming concerned with longer-term job losses, and only using the safety argument briefly. I still think the public simply won't get the argument about safety unless the RMT can state it clearly and unequivocally, now that so many trains have been DOO for so long.

 

[Robertj21a]

Having just read an item on the BBC web site about the dispute, I fear Mick Cash has only dug the RMT deeper into the hole they seem to have created for themselves, by almost exclusively seeming concerned with longer-term job losses, and only using the safety argument briefly. I still think the public simply won't get the argument about safety unless the RMT can state it clearly and unequivocally, now that so many trains have been DOO for so long.

Couldn't agree more. Is he briefed by others or 'does his own thing' ? - the RMT really does need to get all their PR/Media sorted out.

 

[Mordac]

This may be your opinion, but money (through cost benefit analysis) is how expenditure on safety is justified by institutions (whether local or national). If we didn't have some form of comparison for justifying expense, it would just be left to a shouting match as to where money was spent.

I can expand on this if anyone is interested.

Don't bother, I tried saying more or less the same on post #6494, and no one paid any attention then either. No one's interested in doing any kind of cost benefit analysis, on either side, at least as far as I could tell. Certainly if anyone has done so, no one has bothered making it public.

 

[paul332]

Having just read an item on the BBC web site about the dispute, I fear Mick Cash has only dug the RMT deeper into the hole they seem to have created for themselves, by almost exclusively seeming concerned with longer-term job losses, and only using the safety argument briefly. I still think the public simply won't get the argument about safety unless the RMT can state it clearly and unequivocally, now that so many trains have been DOO for so long.

Exactly. What argument about safety? As a member of the general public, I see DOO on the Underground, the Overground and Thameslink, for the past 35 years with absolutely zero safety impact. I see the RMT apparently acting in a totally hypocritically, utterly idiotic self-defeating ostrich-like manner, deliberately targetting the travelling public to cause maximum distress at Christmas, New Year, Lewes bonfire etc. as well as the long-suffering commuters. What tens of thousands of unemployed wouldn't give for the guaranteed job security and high pay! Sack the shirkers and give real workers a chance.

 

[Antman]

Exactly. What argument about safety? As a member of the general public, I see DOO on the Underground, the Overground and Thameslink, for the past 35 years with absolutely zero safety impact. I see the RMT apparently acting in a totally hypocritically, utterly idiotic self-defeating ostrich-like manner, deliberately targetting the travelling public to cause maximum distress at Christmas, New Year, Lewes bonfire etc. as well as the long-suffering commuters. What tens of thousands of unemployed wouldn't give for the guaranteed job security and high pay! Sack the shirkers and give real workers a chance.

In fairness I don't think that they can be blamed for the lack of trains to Lewes on Saturday, that's being discussed in another thread, but otherwise I couldn't disagree with anything you've said and I think most passengers feel the same.

What exactly are they striking about seems to be the question on many passengers lips.

 

[Dave1987]

Exactly. What argument about safety? As a member of the general public, I see DOO on the Underground, the Overground and Thameslink, for the past 35 years with absolutely zero safety impact. I see the RMT apparently acting in a totally hypocritically, utterly idiotic self-defeating ostrich-like manner, deliberately targetting the travelling public to cause maximum distress at Christmas, New Year, Lewes bonfire etc. as well as the long-suffering commuters. What tens of thousands of unemployed wouldn't give for the guaranteed job security and high pay! Sack the shirkers and give real workers a chance.

So what about drivers concerns about safety? You know the people that take the risk of being jailed for any PTI incidents?

 

[Fincra5]

Exactly. What argument about safety? As a member of the general public, I see DOO on the Underground, the Overground and Thameslink, for the past 35 years with absolutely zero safety impact. I see the RMT apparently acting in a totally hypocritically, utterly idiotic self-defeating ostrich-like manner, deliberately targetting the travelling public to cause maximum distress at Christmas, New Year, Lewes bonfire etc. as well as the long-suffering commuters. What tens of thousands of unemployed wouldn't give for the guaranteed job security and high pay! Sack the shirkers and give real workers a chance.

O.K.

Back to the real world. As said before, deep in the thread, the majority of the last 10 (maybe 8 examples) of accidents - fatal or non fatal - on the Platform to Train Interface have been on DOO services.

The trains with the most assaults and thefts are on DOO services. Etc etc.

As for Lewes bonfire.. where do you see Lewes District Council or the Police complaining? You won't! They're more than happy to have a reduced crowd... they've been trying to do it for years now, what with, not advertising additional trains and early road closures.

Oh and Strikers or "shirkers", as you put it, are "Real Workers" trying to protect their job for the future.

There's already been trains running without OBS' onboard when they're booked... its a slippery slope. It might be alright for you if you're an able bodied passenger but the ones who will lose out are passengers requiring assistance / disabled travellers. Direct attack on their hard fought DDA Rights. (In my opinion)

 

[Dave1987]

In fairness I don't think that they can be blamed for the lack of trains to Lewes on Saturday, that's being discussed in another thread, but otherwise I couldn't disagree with anything you've said and I think most passengers feel the same.

What exactly are they striking about seems to be the question on many passengers lips.

So what about the ASLEF ballot then eh? Believe their concerns are unwarranted?
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O.K.

Back to the real world. As said before, deep in the thread, the majority of the last 10 (maybe 8 examples) of accidents - fatal or non fatal - on the Platform to Train Interface have been on DOO services.

The trains with the most assaults and thefts are on DOO services. Etc etc.

As for Lewes bonfire.. where do you see Lewes District Council or the Police complaining? You won't! They're more than happy to have a reduced crowd... they've been trying to do it for years now, what with, not advertising additional trains and early road closures.

Oh and Strikers or "shirkers", as you put it, are "Real Workers" trying to protect their job for the future.

There's already been trains running without OBS' onboard when they're booked... its a slippery slope. It might be alright for you if you're an able bodied passenger but the ones who will lose out are passengers requiring assistance / disabled travellers. Direct attack on their hard fought DDA Rights. (In my opinion)

This thread keeps on going round and round in circles does it.

 

[Antman]

So what about the ASLEF ballot then eh? Believe their concerns are unwarranted?
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This thread keeps on going round and round in circles does it.

What are their concerns? They don't seem to be shared by drivers on existing DOO services.
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O.K.

Back to the real world. As said before, deep in the thread, the majority of the last 10 (maybe 8 examples) of accidents - fatal or non fatal - on the Platform to Train Interface have been on DOO services.

The trains with the most assaults and thefts are on DOO services. Etc etc.

As for Lewes bonfire.. where do you see Lewes District Council or the Police complaining? You won't! They're more than happy to have a reduced crowd... they've been trying to do it for years now, what with, not advertising additional trains and early road closures.

Oh and Strikers or "shirkers", as you put it, are "Real Workers" trying to protect their job for the future.

There's already been trains running without OBS' onboard when they're booked... its a slippery slope. It might be alright for you if you're an able bodied passenger but the ones who will lose out are passengers requiring assistance / disabled travellers. Direct attack on their hard fought DDA Rights. (In my opinion)

Assaults and thefts are more likely to happen on busy urban services, most of which happen to be DOO. Are you seriously suggesting a guard would make one iota of difference?

 

[Dave1987]

What are their concerns? They don't seem to be shared by drivers on existing DOO services.

That's a massive statement you have just made, how on earth would you know that?

You need only look at the concerns of drivers on this very thread that you seem to ignore to know what their concerns are!

 

[Fincra5]

What are their concerns? They don't seem to be shared by drivers on existing DOO services.
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Assaults and thefts are more likely to happen on busy urban services, most of which happen to be DOO. Are you seriously suggesting a guard would make one iota of difference?

A physical presence onboard. Yes it makes all the difference. Guards can monitor onboard CCTV (on some trains), do patrols for safety and environment checks. Vulnerable people feel safer with an onboard presence.

 

[Antman]

That's a massive statement you have just made, how on earth would you know that?

You need only look at the concerns of drivers on this very thread that you seem to ignore to know what their concerns are!

Hardly a massive statement just a logical conclusion as DOO operate daily.

 

[Fincra5]

That's a massive statement you have just made, how on earth would you know that?

You need only look at the concerns of drivers on this very thread that you seem to ignore to know what their concerns are!

I do feel he's on another planet.

 

[Antman]

A physical presence onboard. Yes it makes all the difference. Guards can monitor onboard CCTV (on some trains), do patrols for safety and environment checks. Vulnerable people feel safer with an onboard presence.

But they're often hidden away in the back cab.
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I do feel he's on another planet.

You're the one on another planet:roll:!

 

[Dave1987]

Hardly a massive statement just a logical conclusion as DOO operate daily.

No you said their concerns aren't shared by other DOO drivers. You have assumed that. Many drivers drive DOO trains and have the same concerns as those on Southern. ASLEF are mounting a campaign to get guards back on all services because of those concerns. But of course the government aren't interested. Plenty of drivers have had massively extended dwell times because they can't see the PTI properly so have walked back closing doors individually, because they are concerned about safety and that they are responsible.

 

[Fincra5]

But they're often hidden away in the back cab.
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You're the one on another planet:roll:!

Far less often than you seem to think. Sometimes they have to (full and standing), some trains only have controls in the cab.

Trust me.. i'm not on another planet. I know DOO drivers on a varitey of networks, some who also work with guards. Guess which operation they prefer? Which operation they believe is safer?

I'm not saying DOO isn't safe... it's just not the safest! Its cheaper.