Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Don King]

What more is there to say. No one has found there to be any increased risk of DOO over Driver Guard despatch. Do you not think if it was less safe ASLEF would be saying so ? The upcoming ballot just says that DOO should not be extended without out their agreement. No mention of safety.

Even the RSSB's own study states:

“DOO does not create additional undesired events but may increase the likelihood of an event occurring or increase the severity of its consequence.”

“The risk level of each undesired event will vary according to platform features, rolling stock, driver behaviour and passenger behaviour and passenger flows.”

And again DOO self dispatch via CCTV is inherently dangerous - as I have pointed out.

 

[FordFocus]

From what I hear is one of the reasons included in that ballot for industrial action is that the DOO extensions were done without any of the ASLEF Health and Safety reps been present to sign off the extensions for the new stations. Some stations have been mentioned to have fail the new standards for DOO working in particular with lighting. GTR have been obstructive and just pressed ahead rather than adhere to agreements made with the unions.

 

[Antman]

But there are greater risks. As the train departs, there is nobody monitoring the PTI, hence the train cannot be stopped should a passenger come to harm. That is more dangerous than having someone monitor what's going on as the train leaves, and being in a position to stop should something go wrong.


So you are saying that, because we want to save money, we should increase the risks to the public? That's not how safety is supposed to work. You can't just make something more dangerous because it's convenient to do so. Safety standards should at the very least be maintained or bettered, but not made worse. The same goes for disabled access, which has also been mentioned up-thread.

In the case of firemen, we have reduced the chance of fires occurring with improvements to the way we run households. In the case of DOO implementation, we are adding PTI risks that are mitigated by having someone watch what's going on for the entire duration of the dispatch. A better analogy would be replacing fire-retardant fabrics in sofas for older, more flammable ones, because nobody wants to pay for the safer type anymore.

In a word yes, because the increased risk is so minimal, same as has happened in various other walks of life.

 

[Don King]

I have heard that platform dispatchers are to be dispensed with also in Southern land - with self dispatch via CCTV the only accepted method?

Is this true?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Do you not think if it was less safe ASLEF would be saying so ?

They are

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/143548/aslef_rmt_statement_on_doo/

We firmly believe this method of operation is less safe for passengers and the workforce and our unions will not agree to the extension of DOO or DCO /DDO under any circumstances. This includes recent proposals for DOO by Great Western in respect of the new IEP trains and the government's proposals for DCO for the next Northern Rail franchise.

The responsibility of the driver of the train is to drive, which requires100% focus. It is less safe for both the driver and passengers if the driver is distracted by additional duties such as protecting the platform train interface. The guard/conductor should retain responsibility for door operation.

We are particularly concerned,for example, that there have been a number of incidents in the last year across all sectors where even more pressure has been placed on drivers rather than questioning the safety of DOO.

 

[FordFocus]

In a word yes, because the increased risk is so minimal, same as has happened in various other walks of life.

So you admit that there is an increased risk from going from two safety critical members of staff to DOO? Where does the passenger benefit from this then if their service is now more risky?

 

[Antman]

So you admit that there is an increased risk from going from two safety critical members of staff to DOO? Where does the passenger benefit from this then if their service is now more risky?

Yes although the increased risk is minimal.

The passenger benefits by the cost savings (hopefully?) being spent elsewhere and by their train not being cancelled if the OBS are unavailable.

 

[74A]

From what I hear is one of the reasons included in that ballot for industrial action is that the DOO extensions were done without any of the ASLEF Health and Safety reps been present to sign off the extensions for the new stations. Some stations have been mentioned to have fail the new standards for DOO working in particular with lighting. GTR have been obstructive and just pressed ahead rather than adhere to agreements made with the unions.

So are you really saying that the stations do not meet the standards for DOO but Southern are doing it anyway ? Why are the drivers working the train then. And I'm sure the RSSB would be interested. Has anybody reported it. Sound like an urban myth to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have heard that platform dispatchers are to be dispensed with also in Southern land - with self dispatch via CCTV the only accepted method?

Is this true?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They are

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/143548/aslef_rmt_statement_on_doo/

We firmly believe this method of operation is less safe for passengers and the workforce and our unions will not agree to the extension of DOO or DCO /DDO under any circumstances. This includes recent proposals for DOO by Great Western in respect of the new IEP trains and the government's proposals for DCO for the next Northern Rail franchise.

The responsibility of the driver of the train is to drive, which requires100% focus. It is less safe for both the driver and passengers if the driver is distracted by additional duties such as protecting the platform train interface. The guard/conductor should retain responsibility for door operation.

We are particularly concerned,for example, that there have been a number of incidents in the last year across all sectors where even more pressure has been placed on drivers rather than questioning the safety of DOO.

That may be what they say in their press release but that is not what they are balloting about. From ASLEF website :-

Our trade dispute with the company is that there should be no introduction and/or extension of new driver-only operated routes on Southern without the agreement of ASLEF.’

No mention of safety worries there.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have heard that platform dispatchers are to be dispensed with also in Southern land - with self dispatch via CCTV the only accepted method?

Is this true?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They are

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/143548/aslef_rmt_statement_on_doo/

We firmly believe this method of operation is less safe for passengers and the workforce and our unions will not agree to the extension of DOO or DCO /DDO under any circumstances. This includes recent proposals for DOO by Great Western in respect of the new IEP trains and the government's proposals for DCO for the next Northern Rail franchise.

The responsibility of the driver of the train is to drive, which requires100% focus. It is less safe for both the driver and passengers if the driver is distracted by additional duties such as protecting the platform train interface. The guard/conductor should retain responsibility for door operation.

We are particularly concerned,for example, that there have been a number of incidents in the last year across all sectors where even more pressure has been placed on drivers rather than questioning the safety of DOO.

So, to ensure that we are all quite crystal clear.....

ASLEF will not agree to the extension of DOO/DCO/DDO under ANY circumstances.

End of. Subject closed ?

(How does balance with the new Northern franchise ?)

 

[74A]

So, to ensure that we are all quite crystal clear.....

ASLEF will not agree to the extension of DOO/DCO/DDO under ANY circumstances.

End of. Subject closed ?

(How does balance with the new Northern franchise ?)

No they will have to do it without agreement . That what Southern are doing.

 

[FordFocus]

It's written in an ASLEF circular that's widely distributed throughout noticeboards on Southern.

Drivers are working trains as ASLEF have instructed them to follow the company instructions but to report any issues immediately whilst the ballot is in progress. The reason for this is down to the way the High Courts are getting involved in light of the GX decision.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No they will have to do it without agreement . That what Southern are doing.

Northern don't have DOO anywhere in their contract. Southern is an extension of DOO.

 

[Andrew32]

Is that really the best you can do?:roll:

My other posts since my original prove otherwise

 

[NSEFAN]

The passenger benefits by the cost savings (hopefully?) being spent elsewhere and by their train not being cancelled if the OBS are unavailable.

Given how the GTR franchise is run with bare minimum staffing levels, I think that it's likely that reliability will not improve significantly as a result of removal of guards. As a user of the west coastway route I still expect that trains will continue to be turned back at Chichester because of a lack of drivers.

Any surplus money will most likely make its way back to the treasury in order to prop up Network Rail, which is a far greater sink of money compared to the TOCs, and yet nobody seems to want to sort it out (unless the solution begins with a "P" )

 

[Tetchytyke]

No they will have to do it without agreement . That what Southern are doing.

Southern have been able to impose an extension of DOO because it is in the drivers' contracts that they will drive DOO as directed. This was why GTR managed to get an injunction against ASLEF with the GatEx drivers.

It isn't in the Northern contracts. Now changes to contracts can sometimes be imposed without agreement, but it is a damn sight harder to achieve. GTR's option- force the drivers to drive DOO and then just ignore the guards- won't really work on Northern.

 

[FordFocus]

Yes although the increased risk is minimal.

The passenger benefits by the cost savings (hopefully?) being spent elsewhere and by their train not being cancelled if the OBS are unavailable.

I disagree with this. If I spent £x on a season ticket, I want value for money. Removing someone who is safety critical (useful in an emergency) and is based on the train to offer customer service isn't value for money in my opinion.

South West Trains seem to run a good service using guards. Southern should take a leaf out of their book and actually recruit some, enough not to rely on overtime and have some form of cover available.

 

[Astradyne]

I undertake Street Naming and Numbering of new buildings and redevelopments as part of my job and for all new addresses, we try to make them as clear and easily to understand as possible so that emergency services can get to the right location as soon as possible without confusion.

It has been shown that delays can cause lives when it comes to the emergency services locating properties. In fact they use the statistics of those who've died to make business cases for improved addressing and sharing of addresses between different emergency service types.

I would hope the railways would employ something similar. They can't however expect passengers to employ it. What passenger has the fall location knowledge of the railway line they are on?

I don't know what guards or drivers would use to give their location, if speaking to someone but it will be far more accurate than what I could give.

My attempt might be we are by a tree. There is a field across the way from us. I can see a building but not sure. Hang on I'll just try Google Maps aerial photography. Oh no I won't. I've got no mobile data reception. I'll just wait for another train to hit us instead.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

If your phone is powered on the emergency services can quickly locate you pretty accurately if required ... especially if they know you are on a railway line.

 

[Deepgreen]

Given how the GTR franchise is run with bare minimum staffing levels, I think that it's likely that reliability will not improve significantly as a result of removal of guards. As a user of the west coastway route I still expect that trains will continue to be turned back at Chichester because of a lack of drivers.

Any surplus money will most likely make its way back to the treasury in order to prop up Network Rail, which is a far greater sink of money compared to the TOCs, and yet nobody seems to want to sort it out (unless the solution begins with a "P" )

If this means 'privatisation', why would anyone put money into the concept given the financial sink that it is? There would be no commercial return on investment, even if the present huge debt were to be expunged.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I undertake Street Naming and Numbering of new buildings and redevelopments as part of my job and for all new addresses, we try to make them as clear and easily to understand as possible so that emergency services can get to the right location as soon as possible without confusion.

It has been shown that delays can cause lives when it comes to the emergency services locating properties. In fact they use the statistics of those who've died to make business cases for improved addressing and sharing of addresses between different emergency service types.

I would hope the railways would employ something similar. They can't however expect passengers to employ it. What passenger has the fall location knowledge of the railway line they are on?

I don't know what guards or drivers would use to give their location, if speaking to someone but it will be far more accurate than what I could give.

My attempt might be we are by a tree. There is a field across the way from us. I can see a building but not sure. Hang on I'll just try Google Maps aerial photography. Oh no I won't. I've got no mobile data reception. I'll just wait for another train to hit us instead.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Well, I hope they are more accurate than your posts!

 

[Dave1987]

No they will have to do it without agreement . That what Southern are doing.

Funny how I've heard that by doing what they are, their staff don't want to help the company out at all and work to rule. Yet other TOCs who have a good working relationship with unions don't have that problem with staff willing to help wherever they can.

 

[NSEFAN]

If this means 'privatisation', why would anyone put money into the concept given the financial sink that it is? There would be no commercial return on investment, even if the present huge debt were to be expunged.

I agree that it wouldn't be a solution, but certain recent governments don't seem to understand this. All that would happen is the privately-owned NR would still have to have massive amounts of cash injected (plus a bit extra for the new owners' troubles). Network Rail's problems seem to be at an organisational level, with money leaking out all over the place because the sheer amount of management, consultancies and price-gouging specialist companies needed to make it work. If this problem could be tackled we might actually see some real savings, and also faster project delivery, but it's just easier to make front-line staff redundant instead and use the money to maintain the status quo.

If your phone is powered on the emergency services can quickly locate you pretty accurately if required ... especially if they know you are on a railway line.

Whilst a mobile phone can be triangulated using GSM, there would still be other issues, such as getting trains stopped as quickly as possible. The railway should be a controlled environment and shouldn't be relying on the emergency services to tell them that there has been accident. It also helps to have staff who are trained on how to work on the live railway, whereas the emergency services will not necessarily have had such training.

 

[Dave1987]

If your phone is powered on the emergency services can quickly locate you pretty accurately if required ... especially if they know you are on a railway line.

Awesome, right how does the 999 operator get a block and emergency isolation? How does the 999 operator know where the nearest point of access is? How does the 999 operator know the headcode of the train to inform all other parties of the incident? Or the driver or guard could get hold of the signaller, know the head code and exactly where they are via emergency call, and the signaller gives the emergency services the precise correct information needed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I hear is one of the reasons included in that ballot for industrial action is that the DOO extensions were done without any of the ASLEF Health and Safety reps been present to sign off the extensions for the new stations. Some stations have been mentioned to have fail the new standards for DOO working in particular with lighting. GTR have been obstructive and just pressed ahead rather than adhere to agreements made with the unions.

Ouch! It's even worse than what I've been hearing. No wonder they are balloting. That's just plain ridiculous.

 

[Astradyne]

Awesome, right how does the 999 operator get a block and emergency isolation? How does the 999 operator know where the nearest point of access is? How does the 999 operator know the headcode of the train to inform all other parties of the incident? Or the driver or guard could get hold of the signaller, know the head code and exactly where they are via emergency call, and the signaller gives the emergency services the precise correct information needed.

Hopefully this number could be of help ... and hopefully the emergency services have some plans for a major incidents and how they deal with them. Do you really think there is not a major incident process in place.

Every so often the are exercises as to what would happen in a major incident ... so would hope they would know the right people to engage.

From National Rail site.

"Emergency 24 hour helpline: 03457 11 41 41
If there's a safety threat to you or to others"

If you tell the operator you are on the 17:52 train from East Croydon to Brighton ... their contact point should be able to quickly translate that to a head code ... but then this is the railway ... so maybe he will have to find it in a 400 page book

Having heard the guard has to go on a 1.25 mile run carrying explosive detonators on a track bed full of trip hazzards .... I have more faith in the emergency services to help me. I am amazed this process is allowed.

 

[FordFocus]

Maybe of interest to those thinking 999 is and adequate replacement for a driver or guard using GSM-R.

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/collision-between-a-train-and-a-fallen-bridge-parapet-at-froxfield

RAIB has also identified two learning points, one for police forces regarding the importance of contacting the appropriate railway control centre immediately when the safety of the line is affected....

 

[Don King]

Having heard the guard has to go on a 1.25 mile run carrying explosive detonators on a track bed full of trip hazzards .... I have more faith in the emergency services to help me. I am amazed this process is allowed.

That is a last ditch attempt if the signaller cannot stop trains. The emergency services would merely just get killed themselves if they went on the track if trains had not been stopped, or more accurately would simply refuse to go on the track until an appropriate rail official designates it safe.

If the signaller cannot stop a train, then the only way is by hand signal / detonators. Which will require railway knowledge to know linespeeds and where the train is likely to approach from.

 

[Dave1987]

Hopefully this number could be of help ... and hopefully the emergency services have some plans for a major incidents and how they deal with them. Do you really think there is not a major incident process in place.

Every so often the are exercises as to what would happen in a major incident ... so would hope they would know the right people to engage.

From National Rail site.

"Emergency 24 hour helpline: 03457 11 41 41
If there's a safety threat to you or to others"

If you tell the operator you are on the 17:52 train from East Croydon to Brighton ... their contact point should be able to quickly translate that to a head code ... but then this is the railway ... so maybe he will have to find it in a 400 page book

Having heard the guard has to go on a 1.25 mile run carrying explosive detonators on a track bed full of trip hazzards .... I have more faith in the emergency services to help me. I am amazed this process is allowed.

Well you would realise that emergency detonator protection is the last line of defence. If you knew the rule book you would know that you proceed back with you detonators until either the 1.25 miles or a train approaches (among other exceptions). It's far far more fool proof than trying to ring 999.

By the way the 999 operator will have a point of contact, the controlling signal box. By ringing the 999 operator you are adding another link in the chain and chance of error into the equation rather than driver or guard contacting the signaller directly.

 

[KTHV]

That is a last ditch attempt if the signaller cannot stop trains. The emergency services would merely just get killed themselves if they went on the track if trains had not been stopped, or more accurately would simply refuse to go on the track until an appropriate rail official designates it safe.

As was the case with the London Underground attacks a few years ago

One group of firefighters said they could not enter the tunnel at Aldgate because they had not received official confirmation that the live electric rail had been turned off.

One police officer stood on the rail to prove that it was no longer live - but the crew insisted they still needed word from London Underground managers.

The first crew reached King's Cross station at 0913 - but did not go to the scene until a second crew arrived at 0942. That was because their communication protocols demanded having a back-up teams available."

 

[the sniper]

If your phone is powered on the emergency services can quickly locate you pretty accurately if required ... especially if they know you are on a railway line.

Lovely in theory.

Last time I had to call 999 to get emergency services to my train, while at a station, I had to have a near 5 minute conversation with the call handler because they couldn't find '[town] railway station' in their system. They kept asking me if I knew the post code or a nearby road name... In the end I started suggesting that she looked up Station Road/Drive/Street as it might be a good start... I just stick with calling BTP direct now, who don't seem to have this problem, as my experience with 999 was ridiculous and I know other Guards who have experienced similar. Bizarre.

I certainly wouldn't trust 999 and NR Control to quickly understand or pass instructions required to the relevant controlling signaller in an emergency.

 

[Chrisgr31]

That may be what they say in their press release but that is not what they are balloting about. From ASLEF website :-

Our trade dispute with the company is that there should be no introduction and/or extension of new driver-only operated routes on Southern without the agreement of ASLEF.’

No mention of safety worries there.

There doesnt need to be any mention of safety though. If ASLEFs concerns are met they will then agree to DOO. They say elsewhere on their site they have safety concerns they may have others but the reason for the ballot will be as clear as possible, and it is very clear.

 

[chris11256]

Been told this evening that c2c could have 12 carriage DOO going live within the next week or two. Final union concerns were sun glare on monitors, so c2c have agreed to the union request for a platform by platform review.

Upside to this that the new timetable has over 10 12 carriage services, compared to the new at currently run.

 

[Goldfish62]

But it's not your responsibility is it? Drivers are being asked to take that responsibility from you. See Don King's post. Easy for you to say.

I wasn't aware that I was expected to answer from anyone's viewpoint other than my own. Why is my view that I am prepared to travel on a DOO train "easy" to say?

Yes, Don King's post is very good. Your point?

 

[pompeyfan]

I have a question aimed at the non railway persons commenting on this thread in support of DOO, it's broadly based on a real life situation.

You're on a train at dusk going along the Arun Valley line (for anyone unsure it's very valley-like, with terrible mobile phone signal). Suddenly the train hits a heard of cows on the line and derails into a position obstructing the opposite line. The impact crushes the drivers legs and so traps the driver in the cab but he's still alive. The impact also knocks out the GSMR system in the front cab. For the avoidance of all doubt too, you're in a colour light signal area operating under track circuit block (which makes a difference compared to axle counters). The impact has also dislodged the 3rd rail on your line, but not the opposite direction.

What are you going to do? Who are you going to call? What's your plan of action? I know all drivers and guards would give exactly the same answer.

And before you dismiss this for being hypothetical, this situation is not unheard of.

Final question. Why do you so obviously want to see the 2nd member of staff removed? What benefits do you perceive there will be?

 

[Antman]

I have a question aimed at the non railway persons commenting on this thread in support of DOO, it's broadly based on a real life situation.

You're on a train at dusk going along the Arun Valley line (for anyone unsure it's very valley-like, with terrible mobile phone signal). Suddenly the train hits a heard of cows on the line and derails into a position obstructing the opposite line. The impact crushes the drivers legs and so traps the driver in the cab but he's still alive. The impact also knocks out the GSMR system in the front cab. For the avoidance of all doubt too, you're in a colour light signal area operating under track circuit block (which makes a difference compared to axle counters). The impact has also dislodged the 3rd rail on your line, but not the opposite direction.

What are you going to do? Who are you going to call? What's your plan of action? I know all drivers and guards would give exactly the same answer.

And before you dismiss this for being hypothetical, this situation is not unheard of.

Final question. Why do you so obviously want to see the 2nd member of staff removed? What benefits do you perceive there will be?

Well firstly I don't particularly want to see the 2nd member of staff removed, it really makes little difference to me one way or the other, but in the cold light of day it is difficult to justify the retention of guards when DOO trains already operate on many routes.

As for this imaginary incident on the Arun Valley line, yes having a guard would be useful in that situation (assuming that they weren't also incapacitated) but can the retention of guards really be justified just in case various unlikely scenarios occur?