Will Heathrow expansion mean more trains and lines?

[thenorthern]

Given that the new terminal will be relatively close to the Great Western Main Line compared to the rest of the airport could a large Heathrow Airport station be built there to serve the airport and link up the people movers to it?

Other than London I would say the most important places to link the airport to would be Birmingham and Bristol as unlike Manchester, Newcastle and Edinburgh flights from Birmingham and Bristol are never going to happen. It would also be useful to have regular hourly or more trains from both cities to Heathrow.

 

[The Planner]

You assume BHX wont expand at some point.

 

[Haydn1971]

You assume BHX wont expand at some point.

There was of course a plan to build a new larger airport at Meridan to the east of the the HS2 Birmingham International Station.

 

[edwin_m]

Everyone posting on this thread about links to Heathrow from south/south west should read this first (link kindly provided by hwl a page or so back):

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Southern-Rail-Access-to-Heathrow-Feasibility-Study.pdf

I've read that and indeed done some timetable development for a related feasibility study. And I stand by my original comment that fitting a service onto the Southern will be difficult.

 

[Groningen]

A direct Reading - Heathrow should be possible!

 

[neonison]

A good reason why HS2 should have served Heathrow from day one.

Agree. Include an extension to HS1 and eliminate short haul connections to Brussels, Paris, Birmingham and Manchester and you may not even need the third runway after all.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Given that the new terminal will be relatively close to the Great Western Main Line compared to the rest of the airport could a large Heathrow Airport station be built there to serve the airport and link up the people movers to it? ........

The proposed new terminal is currently situated back to back with T5, alongside the M25.
So no closer to the GWML than any other terminal.
In the renderings, you may see images of a proposed satellite with most of he gates near the new runway, but passengers will enter or leave via the terminal building and a people mover system will get them to/from the satellite.

 

[edwin_m]

Given that the new terminal will be relatively close to the Great Western Main Line compared to the rest of the airport could a large Heathrow Airport station be built there to serve the airport and link up the people movers to it?

The Heathrow Hub proposal, now rejected (the one that doubled the northern runway) included just such a station a short distance east of the M25 with a longish shuttle to the actual terminal.

 

[DerekC]

I've read that and indeed done some timetable development for a related feasibility study. And I stand by my original comment that fitting a service onto the Southern will be difficult.

I wouldn't disagree with that - but it's why the study emphasises the need for the related infrastructure upgrades (Woking station, Woking junction grade separation, Guildford station etc) which will all cost money which is not yet budgeted. If Heathrow 3rd runway with SW connection option and Crossrail 2 both go ahead then SWML will need a major rethink.

 

[thenorthern]

Aparently there are plans for a Western Rail Link to London Heathrow.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/westernraillinktoheathrow/

Extending the Newcastle to Reading train to London Heathrow via the new line, now you are talking.

 

[The Ham]

Aparently there are plans for a Western Rail Link to London Heathrow.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/westernraillinktoheathrow/

Extending the Newcastle to Reading train to London Heathrow via the new line, now you are talking.

In which case you could run a pair of trains from Newcastle to Reading so that the existing extensions to Southampton could continue by being run by one half of the train.

The same could happen with the XC services to the south coast to provide an hourly service to Heathrow without losing any services on the SWML.

 

[JamesRowden]

Aparently there are plans for a Western Rail Link to London Heathrow.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/westernraillinktoheathrow/

Extending the Newcastle to Reading train to London Heathrow via the new line, now you are talking.

In which case you could run a pair of trains from Newcastle to Reading so that the existing extensions to Southampton could continue by being run by one half of the train.

The same could happen with the XC services to the south coast to provide an hourly service to Heathrow without losing any services on the SWML.

The suggestion in the Western Route Study is for an every 15 minute service between Reading and Heathrow with the services replacing Heathrow Express by running through to Paddington calling at Old Oak Common for connections to HS2. The every 15 minute service would potentially be formed of:

• 1tph Bournemouth/Southampton to Paddington via Basingstoke, Reading and Heathrow (Wouldn't run west of Basingstoke until a grade separated junction is built there due to capacity constraints).
• 1tph Basingstoke to Paddington via Reading and Heathrow
• 1tph Milton Keynes to Paddington via Oxford, Reading and Heathrow
• 1tph Bedford to Paddington via Oxford, Reading and Heathrow

 

[MarlowDonkey]

In which case you could run a pair of trains from Newcastle to Reading so that the existing extensions to Southampton could continue by being run by one half of the train.

I would suspect so much of the line would be in tunnel, that it would be electric only. A west facing station at Heathrow would open up an immense number of more convenient journeys to and from Heathrow. The near west, Maidenhead etc. would benefit if there was a local Connect style service.

 

[swt_passenger]

Aparently there are plans for a Western Rail Link to London Heathrow.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/westernraillinktoheathrow/

Extending the Newcastle to Reading train to London Heathrow via the new line, now you are talking.

That's the one that everyone else (such as NR and the TOC) would prefer to extend to Southampton every hour if they could.

 

[RobShipway]

I would suspect so much of the line would be in tunnel, that it would be electric only. A west facing station at Heathrow would open up an immense number of more convenient journeys to and from Heathrow. The near west, Maidenhead etc. would benefit if there was a local Connect style service.

I think that there should be a Didcot - Heathrow Connect style service, that are running as 5 car units but run in between Crossrail and the services mentioned by JamesRowden as I would imagine that those services via Oxford, would be running fast from Oxford to Reading without stopping at Didcot Parkway and stations between Didcot and Reading?

 

[FQTV]

As I understand it, a lot of the air quality objections surrounding Heathrow R3 aren't actually to do with aircraft emissions.

Rather, they're the result of road vehicle emissions at the M25/M4 intersect.

Of course, increasing Heathrow capacity would naturally be expected to increase the amount of surface travel as well, so I'd anticipate that both HAL and HMG, if they're really serious about defeating any legal challenges, would be strongly supporting surface transport development which significantly reduces emissions.

That would, presumably, involve a lot of heavy rail.

 

[JamesRowden]

I think that there should be a Didcot - Heathrow Connect style service, that are running as 5 car units but run in between Crossrail and the services mentioned by JamesRowden as I would imagine that those services via Oxford, would be running fast from Oxford to Reading without stopping at Didcot Parkway and stations between Didcot and Reading?

I would expect the potential East West Rail via Heathrow services which I mentioned to call at Didcot Parkway to provide connections to services to/from the West. Even if a 1tph East West Rail service ran via Swindon, providing additional journey opportunities would seem beneficial.

I think that running 6tph between Reading and Heathrow might cause congestion issues on the relief lines between Maidenhead and Slough since there will probably be another 8tph of services including:

• 4tph Crossrail
• 2tph Thames Valley Semi-Fast (potentially transferred to Crossrail)
• 2tph Freight

 

[RobShipway]

As I understand it, a lot of the air quality objections surrounding Heathrow R3 aren't actually to do with aircraft emissions.

Rather, they're the result of road vehicle emissions at the M25/M4 intersect.

Of course, increasing Heathrow capacity would naturally be expected to increase the amount of surface travel as well, so I'd anticipate that both HAL and HMG, if they're really serious about defeating any legal challenges, would be strongly supporting surface transport development which significantly reduces emissions.

That would, presumably, involve a lot of heavy rail.

It would also increase noise pollution as well for those of us that live within the flight paths into or out of Heathrow.

For example I live on the outskirts of Bracknell towards Ascot and I have heard about 4 or 5 planes jet engine noise in the last 5 hours. However, the worse time I have with airplane noise is between 8pm to 11pm, where I presume the flights are possibly cargo flights and those flights are using older noisy aircraft that must over 20 plus years old.

I would expect the potential East West Rail via Heathrow services which I mentioned to call at Didcot Parkway to provide connections to services to/from the West. Even if a 1tph East West Rail service ran via Swindon, providing additional journey opportunities would seem beneficial.

I think that running 6tph between Reading and Heathrow might cause congestion issues on the relief lines between Maidenhead and Slough since there will probably be another 8tph of services including:

• 4tph Crossrail
• 2tph Thames Valley Semi-Fast (potentially transferred to Crossrail)
• 2tph Freight

Thanks James, I suspect that they possibly are stopping at Didcot for the intermediate stations as well, but if not then a connect service from Didcot would be required.

 

[thenorthern]

Isn't there proposals for an electric spine thing from Southampton to Birmingham via Oxford? If it does happen I could see Manchester to Heathrow via Birmingham electric trains happening.

Problem is in this country it takes years to do any major project and once completed major projects have large errors that overpaid management consultants didn't spot.

 

[fowler9]

Given that Heathrow expansion and 3rd runway is on now will it mean more trains and better links to Heathrow airport and has anything other than Crossrail been planned or approved for the airport?

I am only asking as the although its by fair the busiest airport in the United Kingdom and the government bangs on about connectivity both within the United Kingdom and with other countries.

When looking at Heathrow's rail links however compared to most major airports they are very poor as only one line of the London Underground, a non-National Rail operator (Heathrow Express) and a slow service to London (Heathrow Connect) serve the airport. There are also no long distance services, no services to outside Greater London and no particularly fast services.

Compare this to Manchester Airport, Gatwick Airport, Birmingham Airport, Southampton Airport, Stansted Airport and Luton Airport all of which are much smaller but have a station with direct links to many parts of the country.

Not been to Hong Kong, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Auckland, Santiago or Buenos Aires then I guess? I wondered how all the people got to the airports, especially Auckland and Hong Kong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think something will be built to go further but isnt the idea of it being a hub is that you fly in from regional airports to connect onto others thus negating people from far and away within reason, to actually have to get a train there?

I suspect this is the reason.

 

[thenorthern]

I think something will be built to go further but isnt the idea of it being a hub is that you fly in from regional airports to connect onto others thus negating people from far and away within reason, to actually have to get a train there?

Problem is there is never going to be a Birmingham/Bristol to Heathrow flight as such a thing would be too short.

Not been to Hong Kong, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Auckland, Santiago or Buenos Aires then I guess? I wondered how all the people got to the airports, especially Auckland and Hong Kong.

I have been to Hong Kong their airport express is amazing its a dedicated line that only stops at Hong Kong Central, Kowloon, Tsing Yi, Airport and Asia World Expo and only takes 24 minutes on a train with dedicated luggage racks. Plus there are check in desks at Hong Kong Central station meaning you can check in before you get the train and drop off your hold luggage at the same time.

Compare this to the Piccadilly line which from Kings Cross St Pancras to Heathrow Airport Terminal 5 takes an hour on a standard London Underground line that does get crowded, that you have to take your luggage with you and stops at all stations.

Or compare it to Heathrow Express which runs to one station in London (not the busiest one), isn't part of National Rail and has a very expensive fare system.

 

[fowler9]

Problem is there is never going to be a Birmingham/Bristol to Heathrow flight as such a thing would be too short.



I have been to Hong Kong their airport express is amazing its a dedicated line that only stops at Hong Kong Central, Kowloon, Tsing Yi, Airport and Asia World Expo and only takes 24 minutes on a train with dedicated luggage racks. Plus there are check in desks at Hong Kong Central station meaning you can check in before you get the train and drop off your hold luggage at the same time.

Compare this to the Piccadilly line which from Kings Cross St Pancras to Heathrow Airport Terminal 5 takes an hour on a standard London Underground line that does get crowded, that you have to take your luggage with you and stops at all stations.

Or compare it to Heathrow Express which runs to one station in London (not the busiest one), isn't part of National Rail and has a very expensive fare system.

I got the slow bus from Chek Lap Kok to Causeway Bay and it was amazing. I didn't consider the airport express in Hong Kong to be comparatively cheaper or much more frequent than the Heathrow Express. Tell you what though, the bus was a hell of a lot cheaper than the one from Mossley Hill to JLA.

Stopping in Kowloon, fair play, not far from Central, Tsing Yi, like stopping in Ealing, Expo, like stopping at a hanger a bit close to the airport.

 

[coppercapped]

Agree. Include an extension to HS1 and eliminate short haul connections to Brussels, Paris, Birmingham and Manchester and you may not even need the third runway after all.

Oh dear. What problem is trying to be solved here?

Firstly, there are no short haul flights between Heathrow and Birmingham - and haven't been for years.

Before such suggestions are made it would be helpful if some thoughts were made about matching passenger numbers for each flow and their distribution through the day and train sizes, frequencies, track occupancy, journey times and the number of existing flights which could be replaced.

Many destinations on the continent of Europe can already be reached from the principal regional airports which could be considered as lying within Heathrow's catchment area - Bristol, Southampton, Birmingham and Manchester. A look at the number of flights per day from each and the sizes of the aircraft used for each flight will give a pretty good approximation to the size of the individual markets.

Eliminating a significant number of short haul flights from Heathrow is quite difficult. Watch <www.flightradar24.com> and see how many UK internal short haul (that is Heathrow - Manchester being the longest route) and Heathrow - Paris/Brussels flights there are compared to the total.

 

[HowardGWR]

The first thing the government should specify is that no connecting flight slots should be allowed at a distance of less than 400 kms, unless there are no rail connections possible from the nearest city (to the said airport) or island (e.g. Scilly Isles). Also, if rail can provide a 5 hour connection, then those slots should be ceded to long distance. Actually, if we stay in the EU, then that could be an EU agreement.

I expect there is a hole in this pro-environment suggestion, so please fill it for me, if need be.

 

[Russ Butler]

HS 2 should be re routed to serve Heathrow and terminate at St Pancras International with a direct link out to Stratford. This would give one change only access from East Anglia, the East and West Midlands and direct trains from Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham. The link out to the West would allow direct access from Oxford, Bristol and South Wales and the South West.

However, despite what the Government say HS2 and Heathrow expansion is all about London. Those of us in the shire's are of no consequence what so ever.

If Heathrow expansion and HS2 goes ahead it is a fantastic opportunity to show some real joined up thinking, however this is the UK so it will be a half a job at an excessively over inflated price.

I do not expect to have to worry about making an approach to the the 3rd runway at Heathrow before I retire from flying in 18 years time, I would be rather surprised if construction has even begun by then.

 

[swt_passenger]

There needs to be some connectivity by train other than changing at Farringdon between Heathrow and Gatwick, that way, the coaches between Gatwick and Heathrow can be reduced. Otherwise you are cutting off those that live in West Sussex, East Sussex and Kent from using Heathrow by forcing them to have to go into London to get to the airport or use coach/taxi service instead.

Are you really suggesting that "those that live in West Sussex, East Sussex and Kent" generally use coaches between Gatwick and Heathrow?

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HS 2 should be re routed to serve Heathrow

It was going to be originally and then they decided it wasn't needed. Nothing has changed since.

Welcome to the forums by the way...

 

[RobShipway]

Are you really suggesting that "those that live in West Sussex, East Sussex and Kent" generally use coaches between Gatwick and Heathrow?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



It was going to be originally and then they decided it wasn't needed. Nothing has changed since.

Welcome to the forums by the way...

Well my father back in the 1990's used a coach from Brighton Pool Valley bus station to Heathrow, but would have rather gone by direct train if possible. But the coach did stop off at Gatwick on route to Heathrow, so yes those certainly in East Sussex have to go to Gatwick by coach before they get to Heathrow!

 

[thenorthern]

I got the slow bus from Chek Lap Kok to Causeway Bay and it was amazing. I didn't consider the airport express in Hong Kong to be comparatively cheaper or much more frequent than the Heathrow Express. Tell you what though, the bus was a hell of a lot cheaper than the one from Mossley Hill to JLA.

Stopping in Kowloon, fair play, not far from Central, Tsing Yi, like stopping in Ealing, Expo, like stopping at a hanger a bit close to the airport.

True although from Hong Kong station to the Airport is £10 return Heathrow express is £33 or something similar.

Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Airport on the bus is ok and unlike the Piccadilly Line of the London Underground the buses to Liverpool Airport have luggage racks.

 

[fowler9]

True although from Hong Kong station to the Airport is £10 return Heathrow express is £33 or something similar.

Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Airport on the bus is ok and unlike the Piccadilly Line of the London Underground the buses to Liverpool Airport have luggage racks.

The 500 from Parkway to the airport claims to have luxury seats! Ha ha. Have you seen them? The 86A is your standard Enviro and the 80A (Which is what I get from my house to the airport) is whatever turns up.

 

[HowardGWR]

HS 2 should be re routed to serve Heathrow and terminate at St Pancras International with a direct link out to Stratford. This would give one change only access from East Anglia, the East and West Midlands and direct trains from Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham. The link out to the West would allow direct access from Oxford, Bristol and South Wales and the South West.

However, despite what the Government say HS2 and Heathrow expansion is all about London. Those of us in the shire's are of no consequence what so ever.

If Heathrow expansion and HS2 goes ahead it is a fantastic opportunity to show some real joined up thinking, however this is the UK so it will be a half a job at an excessively over inflated price.

I do not expect to have to worry about making an approach to the the 3rd runway at Heathrow before I retire from flying in 18 years time, I would be rather surprised if construction has even begun by then.

The problem is, Russ, (welcome), that the Mawhinney report said that only 10% of pax on HS2 would be destined for Heathrow, so that an OOC (old Oak Common) connection would suffice.

If the 'Two Lords' connection between HS2 and HS1 had seen favour, then your idea would be a runner. I suspect that the 'NIH' syndrome prevented government running with that one.