DB Cargo planning almost 900 job losses

[ChiefPlanner]

As a matter of interest how many DB Cargo locomotives are serviceable for the 1116 drivers to operate?

Enough , no doubt to move traffic offered. This is not about locos , but about people's livelihoods.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As a matter of interest how many DB Cargo locomotives are serviceable for the 1116 drivers to operate?

Ah the 'cost of everything and value of nothing fallacy' that forgets that 1 post * 24/7 is at least 4 and a bit FTE and closer to 5.5 when you take into account leave and other mandatory extractions - and how many of the 'drivers' are also trainers / assessors / traction inspectors etc etc

I think your anti-crank reaction system has over reacted there mph1977. The question could have been phrased differently but it still seems like harmless idle curiosity to me. I certainly didn't detect any assumptions being made about staffing levels. If anything it is more of a comment on how many locos are stored and unserviceable yet still on the books in spite of the downturn in traffic having set in long ago.

 

[furnessvale]

I don't follow you. What subsidy and what taxation is that?

It is well documented, and has been proved by various studies, not all by green or pro rail groups, that, whilst it could be argued that roads overall cover their costs to society by virtue of fuel duty and excise duty, it has also been demonstrated that most of the harm and damage is caused by HGVs, but most of the financial contribution is made by the private car.

This amounts to a cross subsidy to HGVs of around 70% of their running costs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/national/article/Rail-freight-firm-DB-Cargo-planning-almost-900-job-losses-ab2e1c0c-aca3-4519-b4fe-79ae8c6567d1-ds

Presumably this means that other freight operators, and even passenger operators will have no need for "off the street" recruitment of drivers for the foreseeable future.

 

[GB]

Being able to book on drunk.
Increased risks of an accident on route to work.
Travel time and fatigue.
unable to access up to date publications.

Most things are mitigated against but there is always going to be a downside.

Clutching significantly at straws there.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I think your anti-crank reaction system has over reacted there mph1977. The question could have been phrased differently but it still seems like harmless idle curiosity to me. I certainly didn't detect any assumptions being made about staffing levels. If anything it is more of a comment on how many locos are stored and unserviceable yet still on the books in spite of the downturn in traffic having set in long ago.

there was a huge kick off a few years ago when some muppet from the taxpayers alliance or some such was moaning that only 20something % of staff were on duty at any one time in a certain organisation ( might have been plod, the ambulance service or a hospital) forgetting that if the organisation works more than office hours you need to have several members of staff for any one 'slot'

even a traditional earlies and lates 5 days a week factory has less than 50 % of it's staff at work at any one point in time - i.e. the shift thati s in minus anyone on leave / sick / suspended or extracted for other duties / training etc ...

the preumption of one loco one driver is an obvious falsehood

 

[ainsworth74]

Being able to book on drunk.
Increased risks of an accident on route to work.
Travel time and fatigue.
unable to access up to date publications.

Most things are mitigated against but there is always going to be a downside.

That is surely what the Ipad is for?

 

[FordFocus]

Not being rail staff,that just sounds like common sense and efficient working to me. is there a downside to it?

It's more efficient but can be very detrimental towards safety if implemented poorly.

Stuck in traffic so the train will be delayed awaiting relief affecting other services.

Too much reliance on the iPad. If this breaks or doesn't update then the driver is missing all the necessary documents such as a diagram for their workings or not having read the late notices for speed restrictions (see the London Midland Queens Park incident)

No longer been able to easily speak to a manager or access publications that aren't on an iPad as there is no longer a depot.

Booking on at 0200, driving to a goods loop in the middle of nowhere in the dark, relieving a train at 0300, working for 10 hours, then driving back with potential fatigue issues.
DBC likely to have to supply a works van that needs to be reliable and not broken down on the motorway. Adds a bit of cost if you have supply every driver with one. Leasing, tax, fuel, insurance, wear and tear.

I think the GBRf model is a bit different with the van driving. Driver books on at a fixed depot, drives a van to the relieving point, changeover drivers, other driver then takes the van back to a fixed train crew depot. My interpretation of the DBC document is they plan on not having any depots but several hubs where the local managers are based with a training room. No train crew to be based there.

 

[headshot119]

It's more efficient but can be very detrimental towards safety if implemented poorly.

Stuck in traffic so the train will be delayed awaiting relief affecting other services.

Too much reliance on the iPad. If this breaks or doesn't update then the driver is missing all the necessary documents such as a diagram for their workings or not having read the late notices for speed restrictions (see the London Midland Queens Park incident)

No longer been able to easily speak to a manager or access publications that aren't on an iPad as there is no longer a depot.

Booking on at 0200, driving to a goods loop in the middle of nowhere in the dark, relieving a train at 0300, working for 10 hours, then driving back with potential fatigue issues.
DBC likely to have to supply a works van that needs to be reliable and not broken down on the motorway. Adds a bit of cost if you have supply every driver with one. Leasing, tax, fuel, insurance, wear and tear.

I think the GBRf model is a bit different with the van driving. Driver books on at a fixed depot, drives a van to the relieving point, changeover drivers, other driver then takes the van back to a fixed train crew depot. My interpretation of the DBC document is they plan on not having any depots but several hubs where the local managers are based with a training room. No train crew to be based there.

I was about to mention that, I take it with GBRF they read the late notice case before setting off in the van?

 

[GB]

I was about to mention that, I take it with GBRF they read the late notice case before setting off in the van?

Not always no. However one could argue that a physical "late notice case" is rather archaic and not actually needed in the 21st century...at least for freight.

 

[headshot119]

Not always no. However one could argue that a physical "late notice case" is rather archaic and not actually needed in the 21st century...at least for freight.

I personally think it was a missed opportunity during the recent RAIB report to dig further into how critical information could be safely and reliably delivered out to staff moving away from relying on reading a piece of paper.

Perhaps the industry will do some work on it in the near future.

 

[FordFocus]

I was about to mention that, I take it with GBRF they read the late notice case before setting off in the van?

Not entirely sure TBH. I do know of one TOC that uses iPads but still retains the traditional notice cases encase of iPad failure.

 

[route:oxford]

Stuck in traffic so the train will be delayed awaiting relief affecting other services.

Booking on at 0200, driving to a goods loop in the middle of nowhere in the dark, relieving a train at 0300, working for 10 hours, then driving back with potential fatigue issues.
DBC likely to have to supply a works van that needs to be reliable and not broken down on the motorway. Adds a bit of cost if you have supply every driver with one. Leasing, tax, fuel, insurance, wear and tear.

Isn't the whole driving and traffic issue a bit of a red herring. It could quite readily result in a shorter journey.

In the olden days I used to have to drive 3 miles in one direction to my main office. I'd then pick up the pool car and drive 6 miles (past my home) to the sub-office.

In the evening I did the journey in reverse. These days, the guys who do that job now just go straight to the sub office - it's paper free so no need to visit the main office for anything other than a hello these days.

 

[Mulberry2016]

I don't think I have read as much uninformed rubbish in all my life than what's in this thread, with all due respect.

 

[furnessvale]

I don't think I have read as much uninformed rubbish in all my life than what's in this thread, with all due respect.

Perhaps if you identified what you consider is rubbish we would all be better informed.

As one who has contributed (tangentially) to this thread, I am most interested.

 

[387star]

hopefully virgin might take some on sad news

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I don't think I have read as much uninformed rubbish in all my life than what's in this thread, with all due respect.

Perhaps if you identified what you consider is rubbish we would all be better informed.

As one who has contributed (tangentially) to this thread, I am most interested.

furnessvale, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for a response. A quick read of Mulberry2016's posts (all 6 of them) suggests they're not overly keen on detail nor on discussion.

 

[alexl92]

Being able to book on drunk.
Increased risks of an accident on route to work.
Travel time and fatigue.
unable to access up to date publications.

Most things are mitigated against but there is always going to be a downside.

I don't understand how this results in an increase in the risk of an accident? And likewise, travel time - could go either way.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I don't understand how this results in an increase in the risk of an accident? And likewise, travel time - could go either way.

classic shroud waving tactics

 

[Legzr1]

classic shroud waving tactics

He responded to a request for any negatives.
He gave a response listing (what he thought were) negatives.

Shroud waving?

Hardly.


Thoughts to the poor buggers about to lose their jobs - easy to forget there are real people behind those numbers and their interests go a little further than winning internet points on some rail forum.

 

[LAX54]

They want major changes to the train crew concept. Drivers no longer booking on at depots but driving to a goods loop or station and booking on via an iPad.

Is that not the way GB sign on and off duty ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Being able to book on drunk.
Increased risks of an accident on route to work.
Travel time and fatigue.
unable to access up to date publications.

Most things are mitigated against but there is always going to be a downside.

Why increased risk of accident ?? Travel Time / Fatigue surely would be the same, that is surely dependent on shift length, and most Companies have up to date publications 'on-line' these days, and would be available on IPads and phones.

 

[66Yorks]

Terrible news for all concerned. I hope that all persons affected find employment as soon as possible.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thoughts to all concerned its always horrible to go through a process like this.

This must be one of the largest mass redundancy situations on the railway in some time I'd have thought?

 

[glbotu]

For those in the industry, how easy is it for someone as a driver in an existing organisation to find employment with another company. Do you have to go through the same process as a brand new driver, or do you apply to a higher grade (obviously things like traction and route knowledge would be an issue, but would having driven heavy freight for years put you in good stead to run passenger commuter services, say).

 

[ComUtoR]

He responded to a request for any negatives.
He gave a response listing (what he thought were) negatives.

Precisely.

Thoughts to the poor buggers about to lose their jobs - easy to forget there are real people behind those numbers and their interests go a little further than winning internet points on some rail forum.

Which I why (until now) I didn't respond

Why increased risk of accident ?? Travel Time / Fatigue surely would be the same, that is surely dependent on shift length,

http://www.rssb.co.uk/research-deve...d-development/research-project-catalogue/t997

Developing good practice guides for managers and rail staff to improve the management of occupational road risk associated with driver fatigue.

Many railway workers use road vehicles to travel between home and work, or from job to job during the course of their shift. This research aims to help reduce road vehicle accidents caused by driver fatigue. It shares information on the causes of fatigue, and how to identify the warning signs, and gives practical advice for drivers and managers on how to reduce the risk of a fatigue-related road traffic accident. The deliverables comprise: two good practice guides – one aimed at road vehicle drivers and the other aimed at their managers; a summary leaflet for drivers; and an awareness raising poster for the workplace.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/impro.../2015-10-driving-down-the-risk-a5-booklet.pdf

Road driving risk affects everyone

Part of rail’s attraction is the high level of safety; train travel is about 20 times safer than going by car. But many of us still drive cars, vans and lorries as part of normal, everyday life, either to get to and from work, or as part of work, travelling between sites, offices and depots. Currently, 5 people die on Britain’s roads every day. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) calculates that ‘after deep sea fishing and coal mining, driving 25,000 miles a year on business is the most life-
threatening activity we undertake - more dangerous than working in construction’. There are likely to be at least 75,000 road vehicles linked to
the rail industry, and the sector relies on the workforce being able to drive them as part of daily duties. In the five-year control period 2009-2014, 50% of infrastructure workforce fatalities were road-related

So no I'm not shroud waving or clutching at straws.

I currently commute to work 15miles If that was increased I am increasing my risk and increasing my level of fatigue. My TOC is moving back to restricting distance from depot. Hidden it very good at restricting work hours but we have many who have increased their travel time and distance to work. Increasing the distance you have to book on does the same.

and most Companies have up to date publications 'on-line' these days, and would be available on IPads and phones.

There is a risk associated with digital technology. I couldn't find the links highlighting them on the RSSB site but I may have read them from something internal. Suffice to say that there is a reliance on the technology and by removing the hardcopies you are also removing the backup.

As an example (other than the one already highlighted upthread) There was an error with the first issue of the Drivers Rule book (the digital one) The error was not rectified until issued 2 was released (several months later)

Another example is the obvious one. What happens when the iPad is broken ? We use iPads and I support the use of the technology but I am acutely aware of the risk. We currently have many Drivers whose iPads either don't work or they don't have them.

We are also having an issue where information is NOT being updated regularly We also had a problem last week where there was no WON or PON issued. We also have an issue where it takes time for the iPads to be updated. I still haven't got my new rule book (issue 3) I don't even have the handbooks on my iPad. It simply will not get updated until the information is pushed to it. It is wholly reliant on someone else sending me the information.

Hope that answers people questions.

Apologies to DB Drivers, and all staff involved, from detracting from the headline topic.

 

[theblackwatch]

Let's not forget this isn't just about drivers - more than half the people facing redundancy are other members of staff.

 

[furnessvale]

This must be the biggest none story to appear in a newspaper I have ever seen.

Apparently all these jobs will be lost in Telford!

http://www.shropshirestar.com/shrop...sk-as-hundreds-of-railway-freight-jobs-to-go/

 

[GB]

There is a risk associated with digital technology. I couldn't find the links highlighting them on the RSSB site but I may have read them from something internal. Suffice to say that there is a reliance on the technology and by removing the hardcopies you are also removing the backup.

As an example (other than the one already highlighted upthread) There was an error with the first issue of the Drivers Rule book (the digital one) The error was not rectified until issued 2 was released (several months later)

Another example is the obvious one. What happens when the iPad is broken ? We use iPads and I support the use of the technology but I am acutely aware of the risk. We currently have many Drivers whose iPads either don't work or they don't have them.

We are also having an issue where information is NOT being updated regularly We also had a problem last week where there was no WON or PON issued. We also have an issue where it takes time for the iPads to be updated. I still haven't got my new rule book (issue 3) I don't even have the handbooks on my iPad. It simply will not get updated until the information is pushed to it. It is wholly reliant on someone else sending me the information.

Hope that answers people questions.

Apologies to DB Drivers, and all staff involved, from detracting from the headline topic.

I think that says more about your company than anything else. Done right, theres minimal risk to using ipads.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think that says more about your company than anything else. Done right, theres minimal risk to using ipads.

I 100% agree. I support their introduction and see it as a huge benefit to the industry. The problem is that it is used badly. Not just my TOC. My first issue I encountered was with the RSSB and issue 1 of the Rule book. To me that was a big concern.

Technology is very new to the rail industry and we seem to use it badly. Its like children with a new toy. What is very much my TOC to blame is our IT department who seem to break everything they touch.

I keep a good eye on reports from the RSSB and I'm signed up to SPARK and OpsWeb. They also have the same concerns. Hence the research papers being done.

I think what will happen over the next few years is that as the tech use grows there will be additional rules and procedures implemented. As highlighted above regarding the DM Overspeed incident it is already forming part of the investigations.

To blindly ignore or be dismissive of those risks is wrong. They are there and the industry is aware of it.

I still 100% support them.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

He responded to a request for any negatives.
He gave a response listing (what he thought were) negatives.

Shroud waving?

Hardly.

despite such shroud waving tactics being used to prevent needed reforms and service reconfiguration in many settings ...

 

[Harbornite]

I don't think I have read as much uninformed rubbish in all my life than what's in this thread, with all due respect.

In what way?