Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[infobleep]

So GTR have written a final letter to the RMT giving a deadline of 6th October to accept all conductors are to become OBS under their 8 point offer otherwise the offer will be retracted. They have asked the RMT to let the affected staff vote on whether the offer should be accepted or not.

They have also offered a lump sum of £2000 to those conductors who accept the new role but if they accept the offer and go on strike then this will be "clawed back".

GTR I have noticed, have also set out a full page spread in the Metro this morning to ask customers to message the RMT asking them to call off their strikes in a bid win public support.

In my opinion

GTR will start with the shorter routes by taking off the conductors. Dorking to Horsham could be the first to go and then work towards the longer coastal routes. At the moment the West London lines will keep their conductors as Selhurst depot is unaffected but in the future of course this will change.

Once Govia has extended DOO(p) on the Southern brand they will then move onto targeting London Midlands franchise and to state the obvious all other TOCs that have guards will also start to join the bandwagon.

How much did it cost to advertise in the metro I wonder. How does that cost compare to the money they are offering the guards, assuming all guards took it up, which they wouldn't.

I wouldn't take up a month or two wages. Not worth it. That's without knowing other people's financial affairs of course.

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[Tetchytyke]

How much did it cost to advertise in the metro I wonder.

Going rate is about £60k.

 

[Monty]

My SOU-ECR this morning seemed to be without a conductor from Three Bridges on - all on-train announcements from there on were made by the driver, judging by the audibility of horn and AWS noises. I hadn't heard about the DOO changes until I caught up with this thread just now, but I noticed that something was different.

I can't comment on any recent changes Southern may have made starting this week but I was referring to SWT services.

 

[pompeyfan]

After speaking to a couple of Barnham guards today it would appear that diagrams are now marked as assist between Victoria and three bridges.

Out of interest what needs to be done to a line to check the ability for DOO-P?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thursday of this week will certainly be one to watch with contract termination being threatened.

 

[swt class 450]

Various test trains have been running recently on a number of routes, including some running overnight calling at all stations from Leatherhead to Guildford. I've not heard comment on the exact nature of the tests, but I'd be surprised if these runs did not include any tests to check whether 377s can run DOO down there.

I've not heard anything definite, but I would not be surprised if they did run DOO at some point on that route. I have heard it will take rather longer, due to various operational and political vagaries - as this is really a Wessex route and mainly served by SWT. However, there are very, very few 377s operating down there anyway.

What has to be remembered is that Selhurst - which is the only depot without any conductors currently transferring to OBS roles - is the only Southern one which currently signs Leatherhead-Guildford and therefore it would not be so hard to keep conductors on this route, provided route knowledge could be retained via the tiny number of diagrams.

There is no DOO equipment so any trains formed of 455s (currently at least 3 or 4 return trips a day) would need conductors for the time being. As it is a route which is quite out of the way, with a long time for a round trip, often it seems only 1x 455 can be diagrammed (also relevant if the driver has to change ends at certain locations in order to get back to Stewarts Lane). If 377s gradually get found for these diagrams and do take over, obviously any DOO which does come into play could be extended.



WLL trains are already DOO between Clapham Junction and the Croydon/Purley area (as applicable per time of day). Do be aware most only run as far South as East Croydon now, though.

Not all WLL workings are 377s - there are some 455s operating as far as Shepherds Bush at the moment, which would still need conductors between Clapham Jn and Shepherds Bush.

I've certainly not heard of any plans for DOO working between Clapham Junction and Milton Keynes Ctl anyway.



Any services worked by Southeastern drivers will need a Southern or Southeastern conductor for their whole journey. I believe those trains which are worked by Southern drivers will not need a conductor, as and when the line is cleared for DOO. Southern conductor depots working this line are currently subject to change.

Many thanks for all the info. Much appreciated. I am thinking that London Road Guildford might not be very suitable for DOO operation even on 377s due to its very curved platforms.

Will the 377s on the Dorking to Horsham line have OBS on board? If so will they be based at Selhurst?

So are the London Bridge to Uckfield and Brighton to Ashford International lines definitely keeping Guards or will the 171s be fitted with cameras?

Also what is happening with the 313s? Are Southern going to keep Guards on the 313s or fit then with cameras? Or are they planning on replacing them with the 377/5s?

 

[74A]

Sorry if I have missed something in this 392-page thread but is there already something in place, by which I mean contractually rather than future persuasive pay rises, that can or will oblige the drivers to work DOO?

Yes drivers are contractually already obliged to operate DOO

 

[Carlisle]

Many thanks for all the info. Much appreciated. I am thinking that London Road Guildford might not be very suitable for DOO operation even on 377s due to its very curved platforms.
?

London Road Guildford has already had 2 lots of DOO monitors installed there, firstly by BR about 25 years ago and renewed by SWT around 1997

 

[John R]

Out of interest, does the roll out of DOO mentioned above mean that any future action will be much less effective as a) those routes converted to DOO retain a full service and b) the managers who have been "helping out" on strike days are now spread amongst a lesser number of routes, so are able to provide more cover?

 

[hwl]

Out of interest, does the roll out of DOO mentioned above mean that any future action will be much less effective as a) those routes converted to DOO retain a full service and b) the managers who have been "helping out" on strike days are now spread amongst a lesser number of routes, so are able to provide more cover?

Yes but this is only a relatively small step so not huge impact during strikes.

 

[thelem]

Many thanks for all the info. Much appreciated. I am thinking that London Road Guildford might not be very suitable for DOO operation even on 377s due to its very curved platforms.

Why does a curved platform cause problems for DOO using on-carriage cameras? I can see how it would cause problems with platform mirrors, but with cameras surely the view of the doors is the same whatever the shape of the platform?

 

[tsr]

Many thanks for all the info. Much appreciated. I am thinking that London Road Guildford might not be very suitable for DOO operation even on 377s due to its very curved platforms.

Please see below (in order to answer both members at once)!

Will the 377s on the Dorking to Horsham line have OBS on board? If so will they be based at Selhurst?

They will have a Selhurst conductor (who would not routinely be carrying out safety critical duties even though they are competent on route & traction) or Horsham OBS. As it currently stands, the proposal is for Selhurst to only have conductors and Horsham to only have OBSs.

So are the London Bridge to Uckfield and Brighton to Ashford International lines definitely keeping Guards or will the 171s be fitted with cameras?

I haven't heard any plans for changes on those trains and the services they operate. Uckfield services will need to retain safety-critical conductors between London Bridge and Oxted (and if they get diverted to East Grinstead) in case they need to stop at any stations with short platforms. It is not technically possible for the driver to carry out door deselect operations for a short platform unless they only release doors on the front coach. This would definitely not be permitted on some of the diversions to/from London Bridge in particular.

Hence why the driver releases the doors on 171s at all stations on the Marshlink, including on the very short platforms - but not on the Uckfield Line services, where the conductor must carry out door deselect as the stations with short platforms typically accommodate either 5 or 7 coaches. You need 2 people to deselect doors further back from coach number 1, as someone needs to push the deselect button in the rearmost coach on the platform before releasing the doors, while the driver's key is still active in the front coach on the platform. An OBS can't do this as they are not safety-critical.

Also what is happening with the 313s? Are Southern going to keep Guards on the 313s or fit then with cameras? Or are they planning on replacing them with the 377/5s?

I believe the whole point of Barnham and Brighton keeping some conductors is that they will be those needed to operate 313s.

London Road Guildford has already had 2 lots of DOO monitors installed there, firstly by BR about 25 years ago and renewed by SWT around 1997

Also, more recently, it's had conductor dispatch monitors installed (all very well - but unfortunately they don't really line up with 377s or, for that matter, the dispatch positions on Southern 455s).

Why does a curved platform cause problems for DOO using on-carriage cameras? I can see how it would cause problems with platform mirrors, but with cameras surely the view of the doors is the same whatever the shape of the platform?

You are broadly correct, though of course there is still a chance that greater curvature can increase the layout of buildings so there is an increase blind spots from which a passenger could emerge. But it's so variable per station that it's hard to generalise on that one.

 

[Sprinter153]

My SOU-ECR this morning seemed to be without a conductor from Three Bridges on - all on-train announcements from there on were made by the driver, judging by the audibility of horn and AWS noises. I hadn't heard about the DOO changes until I caught up with this thread just now, but I noticed that something was different.

Though my up Horsham stopper this morning was worked with a Conductor as far as East Croydon.

 

[tsr]

My SOU-ECR this morning seemed to be without a conductor from Three Bridges on - all on-train announcements from there on were made by the driver, judging by the audibility of horn and AWS noises. I hadn't heard about the DOO changes until I caught up with this thread just now, but I noticed that something was different.

Whilst the driver making the announcements is probably the most likely explanation, do be aware that on a few 377s, the audio system has a fault where it picks up noises from the leading cab phone handset microphone, and broadcasts it as a nice background to PA announcements made elsewhere, both manually and by the PIS. This can sometimes only be heard if the horn/AWS is used.

This is sometimes a bit of a confusing fault to explain to Fleet (often confused with a handset being "off the hook") and more often than not it seems to go unfixed for a while - unless it actually prevents the PA (etc.) from working, it's not really a major issue at all.

 

[Dave1987]

In the ad in the Metro and LES they claim they always look after the disabled. How on a service with no guard and no station staff are disabled folks supposed to travel?

 

[TheEdge]

In the ad in the Metro and LES they claim they always look after the disabled. How on a service with no guard and no station staff are disabled folks supposed to travel?

By planning all and any travel at least 24 hours before and praying to the old gods and the new gods that the system works rather than leaving them stuck on a train... :roll:

 

[infobleep]

In the ad in the Metro and LES they claim they always look after the disabled. How on a service with no guard and no station staff are disabled folks supposed to travel?

Taxi?

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[Deepgreen]

Southern have chosen to spend a hundred grand yesterday, and it's looking like a similar amount again today, to slag off their workforce in a national newspaper advert campaign.

What do we think will happen to staff morale and staff willingness to go the extra mile? Do we think drivers will willingly work rest days? Or do we think we're going to have loads of staff shortages on DOO routes too.

Southern have set out exactly what they think of their staff with this misguided marketing campaign. I don't see how GoVia are ever going to be able to function going forwards with their attitude to staff. The OBS battle is probably lost- DafT are underwriting the losses- but even DOO trains need a driver.

If we thought the cancellations under First were bad, I can't wait to see what will happen now.

I can't see how this franchise can ever be salvaged now, to be quite honest. GTR management have torched whatever remained of staff goodwill. And they can't run the franchise without it.

It isn't Southern's money - it's HMG's, who are directly controlling the franchise's actions.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They haven't, they've threatened to make them redundant if they refuse to accept a reasonable change to their terms and conditions. In other industries I could see the change being imposed without consultation, and any staff who refuse to work being dismissed.

Imposition without consultation would be unlawful.

The guards' role is being made redundant. Therefore all the guards, apart from the handful needed for the 313s and 171s, are being made redundant. The process is dismissal and re-engagement.

What GTR are actually trying to engineer is a situation where they don't have to pay redundancy to the guards.

 

[FordFocus]

What's the point in the requirements for trains to be wheelchair and accessible friendly by 2020 if TOCs just put the people with mobility needs in taxis? There are instances where a taxi is the only option because of step free station issues but it doesn't mean it should be the universal solution.

In the fully staffed areas outside of the old NSE area, a disabled person can virtually turn up and go as there is assistance through a guard on every train and station staff where applicable.

There are too many clutching at straws arguments made by certain quarters of this forum for justifying the reason of removing staff. I think we know by the way of how certain grades have gone that once these guards are made OBS, they will be disposed off come 2021 in the new franchise.

 

[thelem]

A question to those who say that DOO is unsafe:

Imagine you are at Gatwick Airport station with a friend. You are heading to Redhill, while your friend is going to East Croydon. You are both tired from a long flight and jet lag. The first suitable train to turn up is a 12 coach Thameslink 377 but you can see from the screens that there will be a Southern arriving in about 20 minutes, and you know that this will also be a 12 coach 377 but it will have a guard.

Which train would you get, the Thameslink or the Southern?

 

[Dave1987]

A question to those who say that DOO is unsafe:

Imagine you are at Gatwick Airport station with a friend. You are heading to Redhill, while your friend is going to East Croydon. You are both tired from a long flight and jet lag. The first suitable train to turn up is a 12 coach Thameslink 377 but you can see from the screens that there will be a Southern arriving in about 20 minutes, and you know that this will also be a 12 coach 377 but it will have a guard.

Which train would you get, the Thameslink or the Southern?

What if your friend is disabled and needs a ramp to to board the service and there are no station staff? You would be forced to wait. Clearly you simply do not understand the real issues at the heart of this whole debate.

 

[tsr]

What if your friend is disabled and needs a ramp to to board the service and there are no station staff? You would be forced to wait. Clearly you simply do not understand the real issues at the heart of this whole debate.

For a journey such as Gatwick to Redhill or East Croydon, that wouldn't be so much of a problem, as all 3 of those stations always need dispatch staff rostered 24/7, who can also deal with ramps. Indeed a Thameslink train couldn't normally leave any of those three stations in passenger service without platform staff being present.

Often conductors only provide a backup service for things like ramp use at major stations like Gatwick - for example, if the station staff don't get the message in time - and on some routes the onboard ramps won't come out of their cupboards very often at all.

However, if you wanted to dispense with the ability to deal with a customer-service-type query on a train, or prevent yourself from having a member of staff onboard to reassure you that someone will check a ramp is provided, or remove yourself from regular PA announcements with any level of detail, you'd get the Thameslink...

A better example for that would be a passenger travelling to Merstham, say, which is more likely to end up unstaffed.

 

[FordFocus]

Imposition without consultation would be unlawful.

The guards' role is being made redundant. Therefore all the guards, apart from the handful needed for the 313s and 171s, are being made redundant. The process is dismissal and re-engagement.

What GTR are actually trying to engineer is a situation where they don't have to pay redundancy to the guards.

I'm not entirely sure of how the employment law works in this area. I'm trying to go on a reps course next year to learn more about this in the mean time I'm doing a bit of research with the wonder of Google

I'm trying to cast my mind back to the Ineos Grangemouth dispute a few years ago between Unite and management over the future. Ineos wanted to end collective bargaining, close the final salary pension scheme and reduce salaries to secure the future. Ending collective bargaining is never a good negotiation tactic with unions and early on GTR tried to bring in the OBS grade on individual yearly contracts bypassing the union. Ineos played on peoples fear of losing a job as unlike the railway, the plant can close and production moved elsewhere. GTR can't decide to shut up shop at Barnham and the Coastway routes! At the time Unite seemed to be caught up in some political dispute over Falkirk selections (a reason why I dislike unions been too political) so took their eye off the ball. Ineos offered workers £15,000 one off payments for no union representation, no strikes and reduced salary/conditions. GTR have done things differently, trying to bribe staff with £2000 for signing onto a role that will ultimately disappear in the coming years. Trains will become less safer under DOO and passenger services IMHO will decline.

If people refuse to sign the new contract and get dismissed, I feel that some can claim for either a) No redundancy b) Unfair dismissal. As you mention the guards aren't entirely redundant as they have to operate certain types of traction. It's not a role that should suddenly disappear at the moment given that Southern have conveniently forgotten that it needs to consult ASLEF on extension to the DOO area under collective bargaining.

GTR and the DfT could have ended this dispute months ago if they agreed to the Scotrail solution. It could be argued the union under ACAS came up with a compromise agreement but GTR ignored it. The only winners again are the courts and law firms.

 

[FordFocus]

Aren't there proposals to do away with station staff at some locations on GTR?

 

[Carlisle]

Aren't there proposals to do away with station staff at some locations on GTR?

Weren't those proposals mainly concerning the future of ticket office rather than platform staff ?

 

[FordFocus]

I remember reading something in this thread that it was proposed for when the 700s were fully operational they were doing away with platform staff at some locations.

 

[Astradyne]

Aren't there proposals to do away with station staff at some locations on GTR?

I thought it was just ticket offices, with staff to provide more of a platform presence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I remember reading something in this thread that it was proposed for when the 700s were fully operational they were doing away with platform staff at some locations.

But then that is counter argumentative ... if a 12 car Thamelink service can operate DOO on the Brighton mainline, then why the hell cant a Southern one operating on the same line?

If railways were a brand new thing just being introduced ... do you seriously think they would even faintly contemplate using guards? No!

20-30 years time the arguments will probably start up about driverless trains

 

[sarahj]

Full list of trains that went DOO on monday

Please find list of trains operating DOO as from Monday 03rd October;

DOO SX - London to Horsham route (DOO (P) London - Three Bridges- London )
From Monday 3rd October 2016

1C00 0803 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J54 0832 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C04 0902 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J58 0932 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C08 1006 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J62 1036 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C12 1106 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J66 1136 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C16 1206 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J70 1236 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C20 1306 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J74 1336 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C24 1406 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J78 1436 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C28 1506 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J82 1536 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C32 1606 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1C02 1645 Redhill to Horsham (1609 Victoria)
1J86 1636 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C36 1702 Victoria to Portsmouth & Southsea
1J90 1734 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C95 1748 London Bridge to Bognor Regis
1C40 1803 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J94 1834 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C44 1902 Victoria to Portsmouth & Southsea
1J98 1932 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
1C48 2002 Victoria to Portsmouth Hbr
1J52 2032 Victoria to Southampton Ctl
2C92 2132 Victoria to Portsmouth & Southsea
2C94 2232 Victoria to Chichester

1C51 0522 Havant to Victoria
1C99 0605 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C05 0640 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C90 0654 Bognor Regis to London Bridge
1C07 0717 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C11 0755 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C15 0826 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C19 0856 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C23 0930 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C27 0956 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C31 1030 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C35 1056 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C39 1130 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C43 1156 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C47 1230 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C51 1256 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C55 1330 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C59 1356 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C63 1430 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C67 1456 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C71 1527 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C75 1556 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C79 1630 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C83 1656 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C87 1730 Bognor Regis to Victoria
1C91 1756 Bognor Regis to Victoria
2C97 1759 Portsmouth & Southsea to Victoria
1C01 1811 Southampton Ctl to Victoria
1C97 1912 Southampton Ctl to Victoria
1C05 2119 Horsham to Victoria
1C99 2011 Southampton Ctl to Victoria
1C07 2220 Horsham to Victoria

Brighton trains (DOO (P) throughout)

1A90 0821 Victoria to Brighton
1A18 0838 Victoria to Brighton
1A82 1706 Victoria to Brighton

1A77 1458 Brighton to Victoria
1B42 1558 Brighton to London Bridge
1B44 1632 Brighton to London Bridge
1A33 2028 Brighton to Victoria
1A35 2058 Brighton to Victoria

Horsham - Victoria route via Dorking class 377's only ( DOO (P) Horsham - Dorking - Horsham)
2E03 0547 Horsham to Victoria
2E05 0621 Horsham to Victoria
2E09 0653 Horsham to Victoria
2E13 0720 Horsham to Victoria
2E15 0756 Horsham to Victoria
2E29 1004 Horsham to Victoria
2E37 1104 Horsham to Victoria
2E45 1204 Horsham to Victoria
2E53 1304 Horsham to Victoria
2E61 1404 Horsham to Victoria
Horsham - Victoria route via Dorking class 377's only cont'd

2E77 1604 Horsham to Victoria
2E87 1707 Horsham to Victoria
2E91 1734 Horsham to Victoria
2E99 1904 Horsham to Victoria
2E05 2006 Horsham to Victoria

2E00 0552 Victoria to Horsham
2E02 0617 Victoria to Horsham
2E04 0705 Victoria to Horsham
2E14 0819 Victoria to Horsham
2E22 0931 Victoria to Horsham
2E30 1031 Victoria to Horsham
2E38 1132 Victoria to Horsham
2E46 1232 Victoria to Horsham
2E62 1431 Victoria to Horsham
2E70 1531 Victoria to Horsham
2E84 1720 Victoria to Horsham
2E88 1750 Victoria to Horsham
2E92 1820 Victoria to Horsham
2E98 1920 Victoria to Horsham
2E32 2326 Victoria to Horsham

 

[Antman]

What if your friend is disabled and needs a ramp to to board the service and there are no station staff? You would be forced to wait. Clearly you simply do not understand the real issues at the heart of this whole debate.

You can't just dismiss a perfectly reasonable question with the last sentence:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For a journey such as Gatwick to Redhill or East Croydon, that wouldn't be so much of a problem, as all 3 of those stations always need dispatch staff rostered 24/7, who can also deal with ramps. Indeed a Thameslink train couldn't normally leave any of those three stations in passenger service without platform staff being present.

Often conductors only provide a backup service for things like ramp use at major stations like Gatwick - for example, if the station staff don't get the message in time - and on some routes the onboard ramps won't come out of their cupboards very often at all.

However, if you wanted to dispense with the ability to deal with a customer-service-type query on a train, or prevent yourself from having a member of staff onboard to reassure you that someone will check a ramp is provided, or remove yourself from regular PA announcements with any level of detail, you'd get the Thameslink...

A better example for that would be a passenger travelling to Merstham, say, which is more likely to end up unstaffed.

Always a staff presence at Merstham when I've been there!