Do We Really Need Ticket Offices?

[Llanigraham]

. I've already suggested that ENCTS cards could be used to store Senior/Disabled Railcard details - as Nexus do for 'Metro Gold Cards'.

And what about those that aren't in england?

 

[PermitToTravel]

try Euston station on a Saturday morning. 57 million people and 2 staff with i pads. It is even more chaotic than it ever was.

57 million people at Euston station would make a very very very bad Saturday morning

 

[AlterEgo]

And what about those that aren't in england?

Or those who are disabled and qualify for a DSB railcard but do not qualify for an ENCTS card?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Provided an order could also be completed by post or telephone I don't see an issue.

By post or telephone. How would a telephone order work? You still have the issue of putting a booking reference in a TVM. Many older people do not want to use TVMs at all. Then by post... Yeah great for travel the same day.

That some TOCs will misuse it is not a reason not to do it. Overall, modern technology allows process improvement without destaffing in a more morally driven organisation.

The point is, once one TOC makes it a destaffing issue, they all do. That's the way it works. It is how it will work with DOO in the future too. They are in it for profit maximisation. The biggest obstacle to that is staffing costs. Once they break the unions (and I believe that is what GTR's mission is) then they can all proceed with destaffing.

Look at it from scratch - if you designed the railway today as a new-build, would you have the current ticketing system and ticket office system? I wouldn't.

Probably not, but you now have much of a generation that are going to get left behind. Had it been with a TVM from the start things would've been easier.

For the likes of you, me and many others, it's fine for the most part, we're online and can buy our tickets that way - in some cases we can print them ourselves or even have a smart ticket on our smartphone, for everyone else, TVMs are nowhere near reliable enough, not enough take cash, they don't offer the full range of tickets, reservations and railcards, and most importantly they need to be completely user friendly. Along with that a bewildering number of different types of tickets available for the same journey. One advantages TVMs do have is that they can easily be multilingual.

Work on the user friendliness (including simplifying the range of tickets) and reliability first, then offer more ticketing options, railcard and season renewals (linked to an ATOC database of photocards and railcards), the ability to produce a photocard (add a camera and this shouldn't be difficult) - which would allow season tickets to be sold, and more ability to take cash (and yes that will need tougher machines with reinforced coin boxes.). Reintroduce travel centres at large stations (even if they are smaller than they used to be).

But you still have the problem of initial railcard sales, which must be done online or by post or by travelling to a travel centre which they would have to do without the railcard discount.

Someone had a good thought about post offices selling railcards. One small problem, they're closing post offices too!

Someone suggested that Libraries have free access to the internet. They do, however I would never recommend use of an internet PC at a library or any other public access computer for anything related to shopping, banking or paying for travel. Call me paranoid, but keyloggers are simple and small and can look benign to someone who has only basic computer literacy. Have a look at https://www.keelog.com/usb_hardware_keylogger.html for example. They are also relatively cheap, and can offer a goldmine if they get bank login or credit/debit card details. Those kind of things should only be done on your own device over a secure connection.

Ultimately (and by that I mean in about 5-10 years) we will reach the critical point where ticket offices are no longer required. But we're not there yet.

 

[Andyjs247]

When Oxford Parkway and Bicester Village stations opened last year they were built without traditional ticket offices. There are TVMs and an information desk. Staff are available to answer enquiries or sell tickets. The staff do not sit behind a glass window and are arguably more accessible.

I'm an irregular user of the station but I would say from my limited experience the arrangement seems to work well. If it is a simple transaction I will use the TVM but if it's more complex then I will go to the desk.

Interestingly I've noticed some banks (Lloyds for example) have also begun to remove the glass windows that would normally be between the cashier and customer. Slightly unnerving the first time but I do think it allows staff to interact more closely with customers. I guess it probably felt strange for the staff also, at least initially.

For sure more and more things can be done without human interaction but I do think it would be very sad if the personal service were to disappear altogether.

 

[Llanigraham]

Or those who are disabled and qualify for a DSB railcard but do not qualify for an ENCTS card?

Like me! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Someone suggested that Libraries have free access to the internet. They do, however I would never recommend use of an internet PC at a library or any other public access computer for anything related to shopping, banking or paying for travel. Call me paranoid, but keyloggers are simple and small and can look benign to someone who has only basic computer literacy. Have a look at https://www.keelog.com/usb_hardware_keylogger.html for example. They are also relatively cheap, and can offer a goldmine if they get bank login or credit/debit card details. Those kind of things should only be done on your own device over a secure connection.

And currently lots of Councils are closing libraries due to cut backs in support from the national government

 

[route:oxford]

Interestingly I've noticed some banks (Lloyds for example) have also begun to remove the glass windows that would normally be between the cashier and customer. Slightly unnerving the first time but I do think it allows staff to interact more closely with customers. I guess it probably felt strange for the staff also, at least initially.

It's been like that for at least a quarter of a century in many banks. Essentially, if you are not using a "high cash" counter and your branch still has bandit screens - your branch is on it's last legs and the bank isn't willing to upgrade it.

Generally speaking wide open plan is confusing for bandits. The last thing someone want to do before they hand over a demand note is to sit down.

There are the obvious differences wth TCRs (Teller Cash Recylers) where you need to present account details in order for the Teller to make a withdrawal from your account - the machine then prepares it.

More subtle elements are there too - you may have spotted the small signs "Don't sit your child or shopping here" - that's because there are rising screens where shutters will slam straight to the ceiling if a button is pressed.

Across many banks there is also the, now don't snigger, the "blow job" - this is a device that sit patiently waiting in the teller's drawer until it is removed from a bank building. It looks just like an ordinary bundle of notes, but when triggers "blows up" skooshing indelible red dye - effectively rendering notes in the "bank job" unusuable.

 

[fowler9]

The problem with automated systems is to a large extent you still to this day have to ask them the right questions. On a TVM it isn't very easy to tell it "I want to go to X but am willing to travel at a variety of times". That is just an example. A lot of people on here will have a very good idea what they want ticket wise when they turn up. A lot of customers in general won't, especially given the complexities of the ticket system. I think people should remember that the railways are here to provide a service and that the customers are not there to provide a profit or income.

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem with automated systems is to a large extent you still to this day have to ask them the right questions. On a TVM it isn't very easy to tell it "I want to go to X but am willing to travel at a variety of times". That is just an example. A lot of people on here will have a very good idea what they want ticket wise when they turn up. A lot of customers in general won't, especially given the complexities of the ticket system. I think people should remember that the railways are here to provide a service and that the customers are not there to provide a profit or income.

Bolded part: true.

There are two solutions to this.

1) Keep employing specialist staff to interpret the TnCs of the myriad of tickets available, in ticket offices, behind screens.

Or

2) Realise that if it requires a specially trained clerk to interpret the TnCs and determine the best value ticket, that the system is broken, and take steps to massively simplify it. This frees up ticket office staff to do other things and be more visible.

As you say, the railways are there to provide a service. So they should bloody get on with it. I'd be happy to see wholesale evisceration of ticket conditions, removing niche products, and a blanket off peak. Many winners and losers there of course.

 

[najaB]

Many winners and losers there of course.

As I see it: winners = TOCs and DfT, losers = passengers.

 

[fowler9]

Bolded part: true.

There are two solutions to this.

1) Keep employing specialist staff to interpret the TnCs of the myriad of tickets available, in ticket offices, behind screens.

Or

2) Realise that if it requires a specially trained clerk to interpret the TnCs and determine the best value ticket, that the system is broken, and take steps to massively simplify it. This frees up ticket office staff to do other things and be more visible.

As you say, the railways are there to provide a service. So they should bloody get on with it. I'd be happy to see wholesale evisceration of ticket conditions, removing niche products, and a blanket off peak. Many winners and losers there of course.

Yeah mate I get your point. I think we are possibly a decade or so away from this though. I could be wrong and that is just a personal opinion.

 

[AlterEgo]

As I see it: winners = TOCs and DfT, losers = passengers.

Passengers may pay more in the short term but they get a system they can understand. I wouldn't call that a loss. The current government has no wish to democratise the train.

If the TOCs and DfT really would be the clear winners from this then it beggars belief it's not been done already, doesn't it?

 

[gazthomas]

I wonder what the value of ticket offices are. My retired Father and his partner who don't have railcards booked tickets to see me - North Wales to the South East. They could have bought a "2 together" railcard and then bought the tickets much more cheaply than buying the tickets alone but this wasn't volunteered by the ticket office. While the ticket options are so complicated for the lay person the ticket office have a responsibility to help "normal" people navigate the complexities but if they're not prepared to do so then let's close them and replace them with equally apathetic machines.

 

[fowler9]

I wonder what the value of ticket offices are. My retired Father and his partner who don't have railcards booked tickets see me. They could have bought a "2 together" railcard and then bought the tickets more cheaply than buying the tickets alone but this wasn't volunteered by the ticket office. While the ticket options are so complicated for the lay person the ticket office have a responsibility to help "normal" people navigate the complexities but if they're not prepared to do so then let's close them and replace them with equally apathetic machines.

Yeah mate that is a good point, a ticket office is only as good as the staff in it. I am lucky and have really good staff in my local station who will go out of their way to help.

 

[gazthomas]

Yeah mate that is a good point, a ticket office is only as good as the staff in it. I am lucky and have really good staff in my local station who will go out of their way to help.

You are very lucky! In this instance my elderly Dad and his partner were £50 out of pocket. They aren't Internet savvy and are from a time when they trust people who they feel are in authority. This includes staff at railway stations

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Eventually there will be no ticket offices. Only those of Ostrich-like vision can deny this self-evident truth. It won't be overnight, but the writing is on the wall.

Ah...in our lovely bright Orwellian future where your safety relies on people watching cameras from afar and the jovial station staff are replaced by roaming Robocop security staff.

People feel safer on a system with staff and a ticket office is a point of reference where people know there is someone present.

 

[fowler9]

You are very lucky! In this instance my elderly Dad and his partner were £50 out of pocket. They aren't Internet savvy and are from a time when they trust people who they feel are in authority. This includes staff at railway stations

I am lucky mate. West Allerton which is the next station towards Lime Street from Liverpool South Parkway. If the staff there were taken as the model for the station staff throughout the country I really wouldn't complain. The staff there know their stuff and if they don't they will find out. South Parkway and Mossley Hill are also very good. They aren't my friends or family and I don't work for Northern or Merseytravel, I am saying this as a happy customer.

 

[The Ham]

As I see it: winners = TOCs and DfT, losers = passengers.

As I pointed out previously, due to the rise of passenger numbers there can be a number of TVM and the same number of staff as there was, when there was just one machine. As such the TOC's are already winning.

However so are passengers as they can get their train tickets just as fast as when there were less passengers as there are more options as to how to buy their tickets.

I recommend watching the latest version of Goodnight Sweetheart which emphasised the massive gulf in technology between 17 years ago and now. Yes there will be those who need to use existing systems as they are unable to keep up with the pace of change. Yet for most people technology is something that they can keep up with.

The reason can keep up with technology is it has got a lot more user friendly, just teaching someone how to select an icon on a tablet compared with doing the same thing with a PC where they have to use a mouse.

Likewise Windows 98 had a lot of diagnostic support and was relatively easy to find out what was going wrong. Now the help tends to just say "contact you administrator" as Windows tried to stop you from messing with the systems very much.

 

[gazthomas]

I am lucky mate. West Allerton which is the next station towards Lime Street from Liverpool South Parkway. If the staff there were taken as the model for the station staff throughout the country I really wouldn't complain. The staff there know their stuff and if they don't they will find out. South Parkway and Mossley Hill are also very good. They aren't my friends or family and I don't work for Northern or Merseytravel, I am saying this as a happy customer.

That's great to hear - do they want to move out west!

 

[yorksrob]

The reason can keep up with technology is it has got a lot more user friendly, just teaching someone how to select an icon on a tablet compared with doing the same thing with a PC where they have to use a mouse.

But can technology keep up with our fares structure ?

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah...in our lovely bright Orwellian future where your safety relies on people watching cameras from afar and the jovial station staff are replaced by roaming Robocop security staff.

People feel safer on a system with staff and a ticket office is a point of reference where people know there is someone present.

Actually they don't, if you look at the Transport Focus NPS scores, for years and TOCs where lines went DOO or ticket offices got closed.

 

[fowler9]

That's great to hear - do they want to move out west!

Ha ha. Swear down mate they will be hard to replace with software. I have got info of them about stuff like Football specials which believe it or not do still run occasionally. I even got a new pair of trainers dropped back once (I won't say where or when because they weren't meant to do it but if they followed the rules I would never have seen the trainers again, and if all that was there was a TVM I would never have seen them again).

 

[najaB]

As I pointed out previously, due to the rise of passenger numbers there can be a number of TVM and the same number of staff as there was, when there was just one machine. As such the TOC's are already winning.

The winners/losers evaluation was based on my prediction of the results of fares simplification rather than method(s) of vending.

 

[transmanche]

And what about those that aren't in england?

*sigh* They have similar ITSO-compatible cards; the National Entitlement Card in Scotland, Cerdyn Cymru in Wales.

Some people always seem to just look for problems...

 

[Clip]

Ah...in our lovely bright Orwellian future where your safety relies on people watching cameras from afar and the jovial station staff are replaced by roaming Robocop security staff.

People feel safer on a system with staff and a ticket office is a point of reference where people know there is someone present.

But there are hundred and hundreds of station s that do not have ticket offices open for most of the day and thousands where they are not open from first to last train so your point isn't valid.

And going forward we have a generation who are growing up with phones and how to use them and apps from a young age and even at schools they now teach them with tablets and so on. These tech savvy youngsters will see to the demise of the ticket office quicker than most actually this nk.

Smartcards are already out of date tech in essence and its all about using your phone and bank card or even watch.

Once the older generation who are arpound55+ now start popping their clogs this will only accelerate their demise.

You may not like to hear this but it is reality

 

[bb21]

2) Realise that if it requires a specially trained clerk to interpret the TnCs and determine the best value ticket, that the system is broken, and take steps to massively simplify it. This frees up ticket office staff to do other things and be more visible.

Thank you. (I'm agreeing far too much with you these days. )

A maze of a system means only specialists and those truly in the know (such as many of us on the forum, ie. a significant minority) win, whereas everyone else (ie. the silent majority) loses.

That cannot be a healthy system.

 

[Via Bank]

Hi,

Just wondering, with all of this new technology coming out, is there really a need for stations on the mainline and light rail/underground to have ticket offices? Self serving ticket machines are becoming the norm now, and there are usually plenty of staff to help you if you get stuck. Also, online booking is becoming more common, and you also pick your tickets up from the machines!

I'd like to hear other people's views and opinions.

Thanks

My view is: right now, we need ticket offices. Our fares system is far too confusing to occasional travellers and visitors for us to abandon them, at least at major gateway stations.

To alter the question slightly: should we need ticket offices? I don't think so. If the ticketing system is so obtuse that you need another (trained) human to operate the ticket machine on behalf of the passenger, then there's something wrong with the ticketing system.

 

[transmanche]

Ah...in our lovely bright Orwellian future where your safety relies on people watching cameras from afar and the jovial station staff are replaced by roaming Robocop security staff.

People feel safer on a system with staff and a ticket office is a point of reference where people know there is someone present.

Well you have just described the T&W Metro which for the past 35 years has operated DOO trains and virtually all stations are completely unstaffed - although in the last couple of years they have introduced limited hours staff at stations with ticket barriers, who appear to be paid to stand around and chat with their colleagues.

 

[Llanigraham]

*sigh* They have similar ITSO-compatible cards; the National Entitlement Card in Scotland, Cerdyn Cymru in Wales.

Some people always seem to just look for problems...

Ignoring the little dig.............

And the cards issued in Wales and Scotland do not work in england, just like yours don't work here.

Next!

 

[transmanche]

And the cards issued in Wales and Scotland do not work in england, just like yours don't work here.

Next!

What do you mean, 'they don't work'? They may not be valid for free bus travel outwith their own country, but as ITSO-compatible smartcards they work just fine. All you have to do is to load the railcard discount onto the card, just as Nexus Metro load the 'Gold Card' concession onto ENCTS cards, or TfL load railcard discounts onto Oyster cards. You could even reduce fare evasion by requiring people to touch their Railcard Smartcard on the TVM smartcard reader before being able to purchase discounted tickets.* Those tickets could even be loaded onto the smartcard.

* This is what Nexus Metro do if you want a concessionary chlld fare; you have to touch the Under-16 Pop card in the card reader before you can purchase a concessionary ticket.