Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[gazr]

Saw Mr. Horton on BBC this morming and the only thing I can think of is, "Horton Hears a DOO"! Think I need help

 

[HSTEd]

Ok.. so why not keep frontline staff, you know the ones people actually see, and perhaps reduce the amount of management, specifically middle-management who seem to do very little. (especially the PA to the PA of someone!)

If you ask me thats the biggest waste of "staffing costs"!

Middle management is something of a bug bear for many but a lot of these people do do important jobs.
Many of these roles are of the type where you never notice anything being done if they are doing their job properly - becuase it is the sort of thing that is often not noticed until it isn't being done any more.

 

[Fincra5]

Middle management is something of a bug bear for many but a lot of these people do do important jobs.
Many of these roles are of the type where you never notice anything being done if they are doing their job properly - becuase it is the sort of thing that is often not noticed until it isn't being done any more.

All very well but at the same time. People want a staffed railway.. they don't care about the person who organises Pens to be bought at a stupid price (as they have to come from suppliers).

There are many ways to cut costs without reducing the staff that people see.

 

[deep south]

This whole situation has been dragging along for far too long, and we have been at an impasse for far too long. Given that DOO was introduced many years ago, when the passenger numbers were much lower than today, and we probaby didn't so much focus on a "safety first" culture, and certainly didn't care about disabled access to the extent we are now (by law) supposed to, surely the best way forward is to put current plans on hold, hold a major review (but not with a NZ judge...) to (a) investigate whether DOO is still fit for purpose, and then (b) to work out which routes it is suitable for, and then (c) what safety improvements might be needed?

Today we have GTR saying "it isn't to save money; jobs and wages are protected" while the unions are saying "but not all trains will have OBS guaranteed so that will be a safety issue". Can they both be correct?

 

[zn1]

can i just put a finger in here ?

once the 501s were taken out and the 313s finally became viable once they got used to the new lines foiables and drivers, and once the line was resignalled (for the worst as it reduced capacity) 313s became DOO quite quietly, watford guards then linked in to main line jobs...those who remained ..

 

[Dave1987]

I've just seen a Tory MP who sits on the Transport Select Committee on the Beeb who says that the company have said there will always be a second member of staff on board so he can't see what the unions argument is. Yet Charles Horton has said repeatedly that they want to run without a second member of staff on board. So which is it? He also said he is disappointed in the Government response as they could solve this dispute straight away. When asked if the government were simply trying to gain political gains he said he didn't believe so. The government refusing to do a ScotRail and guarantee positions into the next franchise is what is stopping an agreement being reached.

 

[highdyke]

http://www.citymetric.com/transport...-privatisation-failure-it-s-return-1970s-2321

"When BR built the original Thameslink route in the 1980s, it shifted its trains to driver-only-operation, because train guards’ role in opening doors and dealing with breakdowns was now redundant. As weekend services grew across British Rail's network, driver contracts on some routes were shifted to a seven-day roster, so that they no longer relied on voluntary overtime. But on most of the network, including what is now Southern, this didn’t happen – and privatisation further reduced the incentive for difficult changes.

This becomes a big problem when routes with different practices and contracts get merged into one. Thameslink drivers operate the doors; Southern mainline drivers don’t operate the doors. Southern mainline trains always carry guards, while Thameslink trains don’t. Given that these will soon be the same rolling stock, operating the same services, this situation is ridiculous and needs to be resolved."

Add the need for reduced dwell times, ATO trains, more intensive services, flexibility with deployments of crew.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok.. so why not keep frontline staff, you know the ones people actually see, and perhaps reduce the amount of management, specifically middle-management who seem to do very little. (especially the PA to the PA of someone!)

If you ask me thats the biggest waste of "staffing costs"!

There is a lot of middle management wastage. But some TOCs (like XC) are very lean, management-wise, so the principle isn't universal.

But as ever, the railway has a habit for X grade saying Y grade is a waste of time and money. 'Twas ever thus!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All very well but at the same time. People want a staffed railway.. they don't care about the person who organises Pens to be bought at a stupid price (as they have to come from suppliers).

There are many ways to cut costs without reducing the staff that people see.

Honestly - why do you think front line staff seem to bear the brunt of the cuts? It's an open question and I'm not trying to catch you out.

 

[Tetchytyke]

perhaps reduce the amount of management, specifically middle-management who seem to do very little.

We could start with Piero McCarthy, the conductors' manager at Southern causing most of the hassle, who has been a spectacular failure in every job he's ever had.

Not to mention Connex Charlie Horton...

Honestly - why do you think front line staff seem to bear the brunt of the cuts? It's an open question and I'm not trying to catch you out.

Power dynamics, to be completely honest.

David Brown, CEO of Go-Ahead, got a BONUS of £2.16m as well as a 10% pay rise just a few months ago. Why? Because he's the Big Boss Man and he can persuade the remuneration committee to write him a blank cheque.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...LLION-pay-deal-branded-national-disgrace.html

The lower down the pecking order you are, the more dispensable you are. Horton is more dispensable than Brown, the failure McCarthy is more dispensable than Horton, the conductors are more dispensable than McCarthy and the catering and cleaning staff are the most dispensable of all.

'Twas ever thus.

 

[zn1]

tihis issue can solved very very easily if the RMT/ASLEF realise the railways have moved since the 18th century when the guard had to work very hard or a living and for a pittance to.

in today railways Guards dont need to lift the buckeyes, connect and break the air pipes and control cables etc...its all done on a button by the DRIVER..

the doors can be done the exactly the same way, the drivers desk is built to cater for door operating...extra controls cater for guard control when needed...

the doors all operate automatically, with mastery in the CABS...not by the passenger..and cant be opened when moving..unlike the current units parents in the form 411/412/ 421/422/423 squadrons

The Guard/conductor what ever they want to be called today is a different man to what he was ten years ago/ 100 years ago

now he has to be the face of the company, sorting out the prats, revenue protecting, being the passengers best friend...

I would like to say this...Most units built from 1984 were built with provision for DOO operating...DOO costs alot of money to operate, it is not about the front seater pressing two buttons to open and one to close.

313-323 were designed for one person operating...the last trains designed for guard specific operating in southern region were the 442s which now are being DOO operated on 5 car workings..


back in 1992 class 456 emus were drafted in to what is now southern to eliminate the EPB operation on the central division class 456 were built specifically for DOO workings and were immediatly blacked by traincrews for DOO Ops , the 24 units had to have extra mods carried out at Strawberry hill - the drivers seat changed etc it slid to allow window access i think..anyway point being, the problem with 456 was sorted out...

the unions at the moment are not helping their cause, u need the punters on side not against you...


what they need in writing and written in the safety case is the driver when he feels its unsafe he can request the Guards assistance in door operating. so in case of 10/12 car workings the Driver can call on his crews assistance...whether that is the guard, the catering car attendant...etc....safety comes first....

operating guidance or rules can be written to take advantage of all people involved..a simple change of word or a phrase will change the role of a person on board a train..

i would say to southern and the other TOCS that DOO is changed Driver operated doors ONLY - i know thats DODO, but the driver can use his conductor/guard to the best safety critical advantage.



hope this makes sense...

 

[Tetchytyke]

tihis issue can solved very very easily if the RMT/ASLEF realise the railways have moved since the 18th century

Indeed, the dispute will be over very quickly if the RMT bend over, lube up and spread their cheeks.

Similarly the dispute will be over very quickly indeed if Southern use some of David Brown's grotesque £2.16m bonus to keep the guard grade.

Takes two sides to have a dispute. Funny how it's the RMT who are copping the flack for being "militant" when the entire dispute has been manufactured by the DafT mandarins who've never done an honest day's work in their life, aided and abetted by serial losers like Horton and McCarthy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Today we have GTR saying "it isn't to save money; jobs and wages are protected" while the unions are saying "but not all trains will have OBS guaranteed so that will be a safety issue". Can they both be correct?

They are both correct.

The OBS role is "guaranteed" for the life of the current franchise. But- and it's a stonking great but- the train can operate without the OBS on board and Southern are reserving the right to operate trains "in an emergency" without an OBS.

ASLEF had an agreement at Gatwick Express where DOO would only be used "in an emergency" but lost in the High Court when they actually tried to rely on it.

The RMT- and I think they're right here- think the OBS role will be quietly downgraded and withdrawn just as soon as Southern can lawfully operate their trains with only one member of staff. If and when OBS comes in, I'd not expect anyone to still have an OBS job in five years. Don't believe me? Look at the on-board hosts at Gatwick Express. Oh wait, you can't: Charles Horton had them all sacked.

 

[HH]

Ok.. so why not keep frontline staff, you know the ones people actually see, and perhaps reduce the amount of management, specifically middle-management who seem to do very little. (especially the PA to the PA of someone!)

If you ask me thats the biggest waste of "staffing costs"!

Middle management are the people with rail knowledge who get things done, whether it's in operations, ticket settlements, safety or just making sure the staff get paid. In most TOCs there aren't very many of them and unlike the people at the very top they're not on exorbitant salaries - on average they take home less than drivers.

If anything some TOCs don't have enough of them, because they're the first staff to get cut when savings have to be made.

P.S. No PA could be described as middle management, but in any case there are very few TOC PAs these days - even the MD doesn't get one to themselves in most TOCs.

 

[zn1]

i agree with what you say sir - i can see govia doinga quiet removal of OBS staff, this is where the RMT/aslef can change the rules, that OBS whatever their position are safety critical and operationally essential...

again its wording of the safety case, so that the OBS/guard cannot be removed by the TOC...and im not against Conductors, but i would say that working exactly to rules would acheive more...than just striking

I was a union rep with unison, i couldnt go on strike as i was working in severely disabiltyu care - we worked to rule - the minimum to be done...how do strike when people need personal care...its impossible..i worked rules to my advantage...im just saying thats all

 

[highdyke]

Similarly the dispute will be over very quickly indeed if Southern use some of David Brown's grotesque £2.16m bonus to keep the guard grade.

.

Except that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. There are 400 guards on Southern alone, if each are on 33k, that's £13.2 million. (Excluding overtime, staff travel, uniforms, pensions other)

There are 15,000 train drivers in the UK, taking the average basic of 50k, that's £750 million per year. With overtime that could be £1billion a year.

The Union wouldn't stand wages cuts, so all you have is productivity.

This is aside from operating requirements to reduce dwell times, ATO trains, staff flexibility and utilisation, unless you want to burn cash, have more delay and cancellation or not run as many trains through the Thameslink core.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Except that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. There are 400 guards on Southern alone, if each are on 33k, that's £13.2 million.

But but but Charles Horton says nobody will lose any wages and nobody will lose their job, so the wage of the guards is irrelevant

 

[highdyke]

It is, because it's about productivity, customer service and modernisation - utilisation of assets.

The jobs are guaranteed to the end of the contract, no compulsory redundancies.

If the Union had any sense it should be pushing the customer service/revenue/disabled line which would get sympathy. They need to show they add value.

 

[Minstral25]

If it were to go ahead in August it would be the Mainline (Vic to Brighton services) and Victoria to London Bridge (via Crystal Palace - for some reason). Both of which are DOO cleared routes already.

The coastways,etc, if ever came to be would be at a later date. (Theres an awful lot to sort out - including poor lighting and cctv issue etc).

Is the Redhill Loop fully DOO - I know that Coulsdon, Merstham and Redhill have DOO trains so must be, but what about the smaller stations to Gatwick (Earlswood, Salfords and Horley), the spur to Reigate and the Redhill to Tonbridge Branch?

 

[Deepgreen]

Is the Redhill Loop fully DOO - I know that Coulsdon, Merstham and Redhill have DOO trains so must be, but what about the smaller stations to Gatwick (Earlswood, Salfords and Horley), the spur to Reigate and the Redhill to Tonbridge Branch?

I believe the Reigate and Tonbridge lines are not, hence their 'closure' during conductor strikes.

 

[adc82140]

I'll reiterate from further up the thread that I support the case for retaining guards, but....

Judging from news reports today the RMT are rapidly losing public support. Something needs to be done, and a 5 day strike isn't the right way to go about it. The RMT have to do some serious PR work, and do it now (no class war guff please)- there's still too much "it's all just about who gets to press the door button" in the media- that needs to be addressed. The general attitude from the public seems to be that GTR and the RMT should stop behaving like little children and need their heads banging together. It's all gone too far, and it won't end well for either party.

 

[highdyke]

Whitehall sources said that ministers are now examining “all options” to try and ensure there is not a repeat of this week’s strike, which is affecting as many as 300,000 commuters every day.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-train-companies-as-they-plot-further-strik/?

 

[Groningen]

Theresa May has blasted Southern Rail strikers for heaping fresh misery on commuters

Prime Minister Theresa May has condemned Southern Rail strikers for heaping “misery” on commuters, while also insisting she wants to work with the franchise's owner to improve service.

Southern Rail RMT members began a five day strike earlier today, arguing that passenger safety is being compromised by plans for train drivers, rather than guards to operate doors.

But May has now followed her rail minister in slamming the strikers, with her spokeswoman saying today that the industrial action would “cause more disruption and misery for passengers”

London mayor Sadiq Khan has called for Transport for London to be put in charge of the Southern Rail franchise. However, Downing Street said that such a move may make the situation worse for commuters.

A spokeswoman for May said that the government is determined to continue working with Southern owner Govia Thameslink Railway.

“I don't think it is as simple as changing the operator. That would create more uncertainty and risk delaying work that is already underway to improve the service,” they said.

Southern commuters could face a second strike later this summer – the TSSA will ballot staff in September over a similar walk out.

Source: City A.M.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'll reiterate from further up the thread that I support the case for retaining guards, but....

Judging from news reports today the RMT are rapidly losing public support. Something needs to be done, and a 5 day strike isn't the right way to go about it. The RMT have to do some serious PR work, and do it now (no class war guff please)- there's still too much "it's all just about who gets to press the door button" in the media- that needs to be addressed. The general attitude from the public seems to be that GTR and the RMT should stop behaving like little children and need their heads banging together. It's all gone too far, and it won't end well for either party.

It's a difficult uphill battle for RMT, particularly on the Brighton Main Line - not only are the passengers being inconvenienced by the strike but they also see similar Thameslink trains running alongside, but operating DOO.

 

[HowardGWR]

It's a difficult uphill battle for RMT, particularly on the Brighton Main Line - not only are the passengers being inconvenienced by the strike but they also see similar Thameslink trains running alongside, but operating DOO.

I would be interested to know what % of pax actually do observe this. If they did in large quantities, then I think the pickets would be getting some verbal stick.

The RMT does not appear to feel the need to deal with this ostensible anomaly.

 

[Wolfie]

It's a difficult uphill battle for RMT, particularly on the Brighton Main Line - not only are the passengers being inconvenienced by the strike but they also see similar Thameslink trains running alongside, but operating DOO.

I agree. Sadly, and God forbid it happens, the best thing that could happen for RMT would a serious DOO-related safety incident on Thameslink on that line...

 

[Carlisle]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-train-companies-as-they-plot-further-strik/?

Some of the media are claiming this is the longest continuous rail strike since 1968 or for 50 years but aren't they forgetting the roughly 3 week flexible rostering dispute by ASLEF in 1982?

 

[Robertj21a]

I agree. Sadly, and God forbid it happens, the best thing that could happen for RMT would a serious DOO-related safety incident on Thameslink on that line...

I would sincerely hope that any respectable Union member would be very concerned at any 'serious DOO-related safety incident' and not seek to take advantage of the situation.

Any idea how many Thameslink trains have already run DOO on that line over recent years ? How many serious DOO-related incidents have there been to date ?

 

[Dave1987]

I agree. Sadly, and God forbid it happens, the best thing that could happen for RMT would a serious DOO-related safety incident on Thameslink on that line...

If a DOO incident did happen it would almost certainly be the driver who would get hung out to dry.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What I read from the Government saying 'nothing is off the table' to resolve to dispute is them outlawing any kind of industrial action on the railways. GTR are just doing the governments bidding. The government wants to crush the unions, and clearly hate that railway unions actually fight for their members. Easy way is the government to make it illegal for any industrial action. What they want are unions that just roll over and accept anything that is dished out.

 

[ScotGG]

There's some sort of fire/smoke on a Southeastern train at Northfleet right now. Very likely to be DOO. As well as making that stretch pretty much a free railway (no onboard staff and open stations invite it), I wonder if the lack of guards impacted on the evacuation?

 

[physics34]

Indeed, the dispute will be over very quickly if the RMT bend over, lube up and spread their cheeks.

Similarly the dispute will be over very quickly indeed if Southern use some of David Brown's grotesque £2.16m bonus to keep the guard grade.

Takes two sides to have a dispute. Funny how it's the RMT who are copping the flack for being "militant" when the entire dispute has been manufactured by the DafT mandarins who've never done an honest day's work in their life, aided and abetted by serial losers like Horton and McCarthy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They are both correct.

The OBS role is "guaranteed" for the life of the current franchise. But- and it's a stonking great but- the train can operate without the OBS on board and Southern are reserving the right to operate trains "in an emergency" without an OBS.

ASLEF had an agreement at Gatwick Express where DOO would only be used "in an emergency" but lost in the High Court when they actually tried to rely on it.

The RMT- and I think they're right here- think the OBS role will be quietly downgraded and withdrawn just as soon as Southern can lawfully operate their trains with only one member of staff. If and when OBS comes in, I'd not expect anyone to still have an OBS job in five years. Don't believe me? Look at the on-board hosts at Gatwick Express. Oh wait, you can't: Charles Horton had them all sacked.

Spot on.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is, because it's about productivity, customer service and modernisation - utilisation of assets.

No it isn't. It's about saving wages. There are no productivity savings to be made if you have a guaranteed OBS on every train on the same wage. The savings come from NOT having them on board.

If it was about "productivity" we could use Brown's obscene bonus towards the savings.

I'd agree about the tactics, but the press simply report the "who controls the buttons" line. And if we take Southern's fictitious "guarantees" at face value there won't be an impact on disabled people, the OBS will still be there.

It's the lies from Southern that get me. I've no issue with "modernisation" and "productivity savings"; its just that in this case the only way the changes save money is by getting people out of their jobs. OBS will not exist in five years, mark my words.

I hope serial loser McCarthy follows them out the door.